Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)

[Issachar92]

Greetings to you dear reader.

I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.

My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:

1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)


(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads )

 

[Absolem]

I think that kind of stuff complicates the simplicity of Christ.

 

[notmyown]

recently i was introduced to a theological concept i hadn't heard of before.

so i did what i always do, which was to go to sources that espouse that concept to understand their Scriptural thinking.
i don't go directly to those who oppose it to understand it; that would just be silly, wouldn't it?

perhaps you could try a book? like RC Sproul's "What Is Reformed Theology" or the Ligonier website.

then you can get your info from someone who understands and explains it, rather than philosophical arguments from those who don't.

just an idea.

 

[notmyown]

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. (1 Cor 1:21)

that's why Spurgeon preached.

 

[Issachar92]

recently i was introduced to a theological concept i hadn't heard of before.

so i did what i always do, which was to go to sources that espouse that concept to understand their Scriptural thinking.
i don't go directly to those who oppose it to understand it; that would just be silly, wouldn't it?

perhaps you could try a book? like RC Sproul's "What Is Reformed Theology" or the Ligonier website.

then you can get your info from someone who understands and explains it, rather than philosophical arguments from those who don't.

just an idea.

Ok, i am genuinely asking tho, i want to know how the calvinists themselves answer those commonly (i assume commonly) given objections.

 

[notmyown]

Ok, i am genuinely asking tho, i want to know how the calvinists themselves answer those commonly (i assume commonly) given objections.

(i gave you objection #2 )

i'd literally have to write a book. yeah, i'm long winded that way.

truly, if you want to understand it, try looking here.... Reformed Theology from R.C. Sproul: Ligonier Ministries

there are loads of other websites, too, like https://www.monergism.com/

.... and a little prayer before for understanding wouldn't go amiss.

 

[trofimus]

The perserverance of the saints was the point that brought me to calvinism many years ago.

When I was 20 or something like that, I was a charismatic Christian and I was worried by thinking "what if I will stop believing in the future, what if some torturing or prison or persecution will make me deny the Lord?"

It continued for some time, two or three years, charismatic elders/pastor etc were not able to give me any answer that would satisfy my fear of losing my salvation in the future.

And just in those years God sent me Christian magazine whose author converted from the charismatic faith to reformed faith and was writing articles about it.
When I was reading it I was filled with peace and with eternal security of my true faith in Christ. From those times you can call me a calvinist even though such teaching can be found in any historic branch of protestantism. But is is more clear if it is named like this.

P.S. - I have never read anything by Spurgeon or any other calvinist from the English speaking world. Only the continental ones.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I just want to be a Christian.. and follow God..

One does not have to be Calvinist to understand eternal security..

 

[valiant]

Greetings to you dear reader.

I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?

It depends on how you understand Tulip.

Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback?

It may stop them 'striving'. It encourages their continuance in Him as we work together with Him knowing that He holds us safe...

It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.

Because God told him to, as He has told us all. And because he had a worth while message to proclaim?

My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:

I am not a Calvinist. I am a Scriptural believer.

 

[MattforJesus]

God gets the glory for us being saved,for without Him working in our life we would not get to the truth,but we got to push the door open,for God's kingdom is love,so we have to make the final decision when we are at that point.

God would choose who will be saved,and not saved,without their input,for God is not evil to condemn peoplethat cannot help but be lost,with no fault of their own,and God is no respecter of persons to choose some,and not choose some,if they do not have a choice in the matter.

If the people that God choose have no choice in the matter,God would of not allowed people to be on earth,and go through the suffering involved with the world,but would of created them to be with Him without experiencing the world with its trouble,for the result would be the same,they have no choice,and God is not evil to allow people that he did not choose without their input to be doomed.

I look at people that believe those things as fleshy,and they like to hear the Bible according to the flesh,which is very desirable,for it is a carefree lifestyle with no worry,and no responsibility.

They interpret the Bible to take away all responsibility on their part,and they cannot ever falter,all the while the Bible screams differently.

It is desirable to believe in OSAS,and all that goes with it,but to fool ourselves concerning it is not beneficial to us,but a mental security,and if they believe they cannot abstain from sin,they will hold unto sin,and then they lost the battle,for the purpose of the Spirit is to cause all who do not want to sin,and hates sin,to abstain from sin,for sin separates us from God,which the Bible addresses the saints and says whatever a person sows that will they reap,do not be deceived.

 

[valiant]

Greetings to you dear reader.


1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

God commands it because it is 'right'. But man is dead in sin and he cannot do it of himself unless he is first changed by God. This was equally true of the men of Nineveh. We can decide to do evil. We cannot choose to be good in a way that is pleasing to God. Where is free will mentioned in Scripture?
.

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

Because God commanded us to.

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

Jesus died for all, but not all repent, and His atonement is therefore limited to those who do, the elect.

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

Because finally He is irresistible. The wind blows where it will -- so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

 

[sparkman]

Greetings to you dear reader.

I've noticed a lot of calvinists on this forum and while i disagree with EVERY SINGLE POINT of the TULIP I still would like to BE a calvinist, why and how on earth can I say that?
Because I think its a doctrine that breeds security, it doesnt matter even if I dont present the gospel in the most eloquent words, if that person is pre-destined he will believe anyway, Lord will save His own no matter what we do or dont do.
But therein lies the danger, does it stop people from striving and make them just chillax and fallback? It should, but then you look at someone like Spurgeon, didnt stop him from preaching, I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND why would Spurgeon spend a minute of his time preaching, knowing the elect will be saved regardless.

My favorite sister in Christ on this forum is Angela, shes a calvinist if my conclusions on her posts are correct, Id like her or someone else knowledgeble in the topic to explain to me these following HUGE problems i have with calvinism:

1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)


(PS; Sorry for a long post, i just wanted to make a separate thread instead of bickering in other people's threads )

I suggest reading "For Calvinism" by Michael Patton and "Against Calvinism" by Roger Olsen. I am guessing that most people here won't give you a fair response. Some Arminians misrepresent Calvinism (probably the majority do), and the material is much more comprehensive than can be covered in a chat thread.

I am Reformed but I hesitate anymore nowadays to talk to people about it because I figure if they want to know, they should do their own homework with the Bible and make their own mind up. And, chat rooms or forums are not the ideal place to learn because many participants hold biases and stereotypes that are not accurate.

By the way I learned "Calvinism" by simply reading the Bible. My Arminian pastor informed me that what I believed was "Calvinism". First time I heard of the word. He then proceeded to tell me some of the stereotypical stuff about Servetus and him getting burned at the stake at Calvin's orders (not true).

I recommend the first three videos of this playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpp6gpADZmIufv7R4wmJWKBjyHdwPdEcR

 

[trofimus]

1. If men are totally depraved, why does God continue to command us to repent, and change, if we cant do it? isnt that a complete nonsense to ask people to do something they cant do? Look at Nineveh and Jonah, they repented and God repented of the judgment. Surely we can decide to do evil or good? (free will???)

2. If all the elect are saved regardless if we evangelize, why bother doing it as much?

3. Limited atonement now this one i think simply goes to war against scripture, 1 john 2:2 comes to mind, scripture says Christ died for the world many times, and I think it takes a lawyer like John Calvin to twist something this simple. Also when evangelizing how can you say "Jesus died for you" if you dont know he/she is elect?

4. We see people resist the Holy Ghost in the bible, so irresistable grace HOW? Acts 7:51

5. Now this is probably the only point I got no beef with lol (perseverence of the saints)

1. Totally depraved does not mean that people are not able to repent. They are, but they will not do it without special mercy of God. Therefore they are resposible for their evil deeds, because they can choose good. They do not want to.

2. This is a logical fallacy. "If it is predestined that I will swim tommorow, I will swim even though I move to desert and stay there for all day."
No. You will swim because you will go swimming. You will repent because somebody will preach to you. Predestination does not cancel the chain of causations.

3. If you read the Bible carefully, you will find that it generalizes quite often. World does not mean the world, all does not mean all etc quite frequently. So there is no need for a lawyer. BTW, calvinism is not Calvin, even though he is the most famous propagator of it.

4. The grace is irresistible to the chosen ones. The rest resists which leads to their own destruction.

 

[DJ2]

I would like to hear from any Calvinist who is not among the chosen elect. Surely there must be some people who understand this theology but realize they not among the minority of pre-selected.

 

[trofimus]

I would like to hear from any Calvinist who is not among the chosen elect. Surely there must be some people who understand this theology but realize they not among the minority of pre-selected.

I have met several ones. They admit all this teaching but cannot somehow come to faith and obedience to Christ. I met some on the internet and tried to help them.
They are repeating they are not chosen. I hope they are. The best sign of not being chosen is that people do not care at all about such things.

 

[DJ2]

Is it possible for God to un-choose a chosen person, if not would this inability cast doubt on His sovereignty?
Still looking for that non-chosen Calvinist. Any takers?

 

[DJ2]

I have met several ones. They admit all this teaching but cannot somehow come to faith and obedience to Christ. I met some on the internet and tried to help them.
They are repeating they are not chosen. I hope they are. The best sign of not being chosen is that people do not care at all about such things.

You should never ever give false hope to the non-chosen, this is a cruel act. You and I who are among the chosen should pity them. Leave them alone. Who are you to add to there torment. Let them at least enjoy what little time is left before their doom. Have you never read Ecclesiastes 8:15 or Proverbs 31:7!! If they are among the blessed God will never ever reject them no matter what happens. Remember God is bound to NOT extend His mercy to the non-chosen. He can not reverse what is done. Your attempts while with good intent will do nothing but inflict more sorrow on their souls. If God in His sovereignty gave these people the understanding of His will but not the ability to come to faith, have a little pity and leave them alone!

 

[DJ2]

I have met several ones. They admit all this teaching but cannot somehow come to faith and obedience to Christ. I met some on the internet and tried to help them.
They are repeating they are not chosen. I hope they are. The best sign of not being chosen is that people do not care at all about such things.

What do you mean by "but cannot somehow come to faith and obedience to Christ."?? Stop being coy. You and I both know why the non-chosen can not come to faith. I won't even attempt to waste my time answering that question. Just because our salvation is assured does not give us the right to dangle the hope of heaven to those God have not chosen! Stop it!

 

[Marano]

You should never ever give false hope to the non-chosen, this is a cruel act. You and I who are among the chosen should pity them. Leave them alone. Who are you to add to there torment. Let them at least enjoy what little time is left before their doom. Have you never read Ecclesiastes 8:15 or Proverbs 31:7!! If they are among the blessed God will never ever reject them no matter what happens. Remember God is bound to NOT extend His mercy to the non-chosen. He can not reverse what is done. Your attempts while with good intent will do nothing but inflict more sorrow on their souls. If God in His sovereignty gave these people the understanding of His will but not the ability to come to faith, have a little pity and leave them alone!

How can anyone know who the elect are? That's why you tell them the gospel, we don't know who God's holy spirit will grant saving faith and regenerate and seal with His holy spirit.

 

[trofimus]

What do you mean by "but cannot somehow come to faith and obedience to Christ."?? Stop being coy. You and I both know why the non-chosen can not come to faith. I won't even attempt to waste my time answering that question. Just because our salvation is assured does not give us the right to dangle the hope of heaven to those God have not chosen! Stop it!

I must admit I am not following your thoughts chain anymore...