Pharisees and arrogance

Ariel82 · Apr 21, 2017

Unfortunately the Pharisees were the ones thinking that by their own works and self-righteousness - they were the "chosen ones of God". They thought that by their own self-effort that they were righteous because of the life they lived. It is the natural belief system that was brought into the world through Adam and Eve eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This is why Jesus said that their hearts needed to be cleansed from the inside first. Jesus does that when we receive Him.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Now we are to renew our minds to the new creation in Christ.

Pharisees are those that think they need to create and maintain their own righteousness by what they do and not rely on Christ's work. This is why they opposed Christ and to this day the religious D.I.Y self-righteousness belief system rejects the work of Christ. They are trying to "do" what He has already accomplished and thus are rejecting the work of Christ.

Paul speaks of those that try to live by "what they do or don't do" and rely on establishing their own righteousness and thus do not submit to the righteousness of Christ.

This below in Romans 10 reflects what all self-righteousness belief systems are doing and thus are actually nullifying the grace and work of Christ in our lives.

Romans 10:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

Paul then goes on to talk about the true righteousness which is of faith. Faith in what Christ ahs already done. Christ is the end for righteousness. Get this backwards and we create a Christian religion" that uses the words of Jesus, God, word of God...etc - but we are denying the power and grace of God from operating in our lives like it should because we are denying the work of Christ.

The righteousness of God in Christ is a gift - not something you do to achieve it. This is a major stumbling block to all D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness belief systems. They are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which is how this world's system still operates from - instead of the tree of Life which is Christ Himself.

Paul said that in the last days that people would not be anti-God - that they would be anti-Christ in their belief systems. There is a vast difference between being "for God" and for being joined as one with Christ depending on Him alone for all things that pertain to live and godliness.

What is the difference between being "for God" and " joined as one with Christ"?

They sound the same to me.

Did you read the OP. before posting or just the Title?

Grace777x70 · Apr 21, 2017

Ariel82 said:

I agree. They do sound the same and they can "appear" to be the same - but they are not. They can be light years apart in reality.

The Jewish Pharisees and Sadducees and scribes were all "for God" but not for "Christ". There are many people today too that are all "for God" - well the "god" they have in their own minds but when it comes down to believing in Christ and trusting in His work only for salvation which is by grace through faith - they refuse it. They never say those exact words but they say it by what their belief system reveals.

I gave my thoughts on what the Pharisees were all about and the arrogance they displayed. The reason behind why Jesus called their beliefs and what they produced as a brood of Vipers.

Ariel82 · Apr 21, 2017

PeterJens said:

No you misunderstand and misrepresent my motives.

I freely acknowledge that many people won't agree on many topics.

What I don't like is blantant misrepresentation of others positions.

I don't have "buddies".

I have people I believe are brothers and sisters in Christ and others I pray and hope will come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior.

I tend to question and ask people to clarify what they believe. I may or may not agree with your stance or their stance, but I believe in the end God will show us His truth.

It's not that I seek for people to compromise their beliefs, but I have the underlying assumption that everyone is seeking God's truth and wisdom even if it shows that what we believe is not from God but from the world. However, thank you for pointing out that it's a baseless assumption on my part.

Many people could care less for God's truth unless it allows them to show the world how "right" they are.

PeterJens · Apr 21, 2017

Ariel82 said:

There are always aspects of ourselves in all these lists.
Jesus said some very hard things, which occasionally I have gone, that is too hard.
As my heart has grown so has my ability to understand and go with it.

Sometimes we just have to have faith, and in His timing He will empower us and give
us the insight to understand.

We are very single track people, and the next issue might throw us off. We have
to walk through each such challenge but it is certainly painful and tests all we are.

The downside of all this experience is you tend to think others have reached a similar
place which obviously is not true, but it takes time to translate this meaningfully.

I do wonder sometimes as we change, can we ever really grasp what we were like
before, because even then we did not know, and now it has gone. Memories are such
temporary things, and a construction of the moment so not reliable. But God bless you.

Ariel82 · Apr 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Soooo......you didn't read the OP?

Ps. Your answer doesn't really clarify anything about the difference between the two. How can people know they are "in Christ" and not just "for God" (or as you define it for a god they have created in their minds)?

Ariel82 · Apr 21, 2017

PeterJens said:

I believe that when we see our former selves in others we have to learn to treat them as God does: with love and forgiveness and not disdain and anger.

I know my past sins create a disgust within me, but God shows us that we can hate the sin but love the sinner, because he loved us while we were still sinners.

Sometimes I think the hardest person to forgive is ourselves.

PeterJens · Apr 21, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Ok. I see this. But to be honest a lot of the steps I describe
are not a path I have walked.

I walked the path of believing people until I knew they were untrust worthy.
So a lot of the things I am describing I am not condemning or feeling disgust
etc. I am like describing a trap someone has fallen into that imprisons them.

Unfortunately we often are prisoners of our beliefs and victims. I have seen
this in Islam, where a simple approach literally destroys lives and kills people.

My parents who I love, were very lost is some ways and yet very generous in others.
I do not have disgust at them, rather I desire that they know my King, though my dad
is gone, and I hope he saw something real, but I do not know he ever did.

God bless you, and thanks for your understanding, it is much appreciated.

Grace777x70 · Apr 21, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Yes..I read the OP and it is IMO just another attempt of self-justification and saying things about believers that just are not true. These are things that are made up in his own mind and I think he truly believes it but the sky is blue....

Your question now is a different one then what is the difference between being "for God and being for Christ."

If the difference between the Pharisees and scribes of Jesus day don't help you in seeing the difference that they were all for God but against Christ Himself. I'll have to pray about it and maybe I can come up with a different way of explaining it that would help in this.

As to your different question - how do we know we are in Christ? By His Spirit which He has put in us. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. We receive this truth by grace through faith and then our minds become renewed to this truth and we then experience the manifestation of His life in our lives.

Basically - it's the hearing of the message of Christ Himself and believing that message with our hearts and then being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13.

Ariel82 · Apr 21, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Posting it a second time just shows that you are judging and condemning PeterJens...,why even bother posting in His thread?

G777 at least tried to talk about the topic...but most everyone else....not so much.

I agree that your summary is what a Pharisee is and that it's evil.

I disagree that PeterJens fits those definitions.

Why not address the OP instead of make personal attacks?

royalscot · Apr 21, 2017

PeterJens said:

How lost is a believer?
a) ignores Jesus's words and intent
b) boasts in their sin
c) condemns people who walk righteously
d) believes God will give them their worldly dreams
e) ignores their heart and emotions
f) is arrogant and lying to those who oppose them
g) does not know the cross and sorrow at its foot
h) redefines all the meanings of core Christian words
I) is fine abusing others and trying to break them
j) believes no one can fall from grace but the enemy never knew Him
k) nothing emotional touches them, or they can relate to
l) everything stays the same, or gets worse

Now these people do not know the darkness within or the anger that rises
in them all the time. That might be a clue to their blindness, yet they say
they know Christ, yet obviously they do not. And the source of their
arrogance is spiritual gifts. God help them, I weep at their lostness...

I never expected this, but if the Pharisees could be the works of the enemy
then so could these people. Remember the enemy sowed seed among us.

Jesus described the pharisees like this

You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

These are very strong words. They believed they were Gods chosen, the elect,
untouchable.

Their failings were
1. greed
2. self indulgence
3. condemning works of God as works of satan
4. ignoring justice - making sure evil is not done against anybody
5. ignoring faithfulness - staying true to ones commitments
6. ignoring mercy mercy - giving and helping others
7. killing the people who bring the word of God
8. full of hypocracy
9. full of wickedness
10. appearing to care but totally dead inside their hearts

People who are like this can never teach or be an example to others.

The call is to repent, to clean the heart, to face who one really is and
to bring it to the cross in humbleness and sorrow. He will heal, He will
make new, He will bring about salvation of the soul.

We could all be in this state, you only know if you look inside yourself
and ask, do you love Jesus, do you love the people of God?

Only you know the answer to this question, but there is always hope in
the cross in you will go their, and let Jesus into your heart.

how lost is a jw, and if the eye witness is already dead. when did you fight the good fight. \0/

an other idiot , numbers , letter. thinking the dead will never be an eye wittness to a fruit cake.

Ariel82 · Apr 21, 2017

PeterJens defines Pharisees as the following:

It sounds pretty accurate to me. So does Dcon, description of a Pharisee.

Only problem I have is when people start slapping that label around on other members of the forum, because all it shows me is that they deserve the biggest sign labeled "Pharisee" or more accurately "hypocrite"

We need to examine ourselves and if we truly believe that God will show us our hidden faults and teach us, or we so prideful to believe He only does this for us and not his other children as well?

I didn't see G777 first post as an attack on Peter. However Peter got defensive and posted believing G777 was calling him an antichrist....we got a couple more who actually accuses Peter of teaching a false works salvation gospel and it all spirals down hill.

It's like an endless cycle.

I don't know if it's possible to discuss the Bible without labeling someone else a Pharisee or a wolf or a false prophet around here, but I pray that God works a miracle cuz we need something.

dcontroversal · Apr 21, 2017

Ariel82 said:

How about get your facts straight.....go read his reply and then open your eyes as to why I posted it again....geesh! I reposted it because of his statement and how he likes to twist what we say....

PeterJens · Apr 21, 2017

How lost is a believer?

a) ignores Jesus's words and intent -
not interested in Christ as Lord and Saviour

b) boasts in their sin -
is in open rebellion against Christ

c) condemns people who walk righteously -
takes on satans walk

d) believes God will give them their worldly dreams -
desires the worlds ways

e) ignores their heart and emotions -
rejects that sin comes from the heart

f) is arrogant and lying to those who oppose them -
has no limits or respect

g) does not know the cross and sorrow at its foot -
does not understand repentance

h) redefines all the meanings of core Christian words -
wants a new faith

I) is fine abusing others and trying to break them -
dedicated at attacking believers

j) believes no one can fall from grace but the enemy never knew Him -
arrogance of salvation

k) nothing emotional touches them, or they can relate to -
a hard heart without any insight

l) everything stays the same, or gets worse -
a testimony to a fallen state

Now the above is a simple description of what some have demonstrated in their lives or worse.
If this is what Christ intended through the cross He would never have come.

I think the rot is so deep some feel to expose the truth will just mean the church is empty,
but they are just unbelievers who do not know Christ or who He is.

Faith is about having life and love in your heart and following Christ in a righteous loving
walk.

Those who do not believe this either have never come to Christ or have never been
discipled.

It is little wonder the church is not in revival if this is the state of the members of
churches and this is the most enthusiastic bunch that can be dredged up.

Bow before the King in repentance and grief that so few know what it means to follow
Him. In the past God has taken away the candle stick from such as these.

Grace777x70 · Apr 21, 2017

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious Christian life that was being preached to them. They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

These will bear much good fruit originating from the life of Christ in them and not from their own fleshly attempts of self-works and God will be glorified in what he has produced in and through them.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

Let's make sure that these brethren are met at the door by our loving Father and not by the condemning angry judgmental older brother who didn't know the heart of the Father for His beloved children.

PeterJens · Apr 21, 2017

What is interesting is the cohorts of those not actually interested in the subject
but waiting around to snipe.

My point actually has been proved, because there has been no answer.

The funny thing about victory is the defeated never admit it, they just are silent.
The power is in the fact they know they have to come out with some new positions
because the old ones have fallen apart.

I remember when to even suggest we could be pure and holy was like heresy.
Next the sermon on the mount was not for today.

The next is the old covenant is redundant and the new is totally different.
But in reality the new covenant is the moral law written on our hearts.

And from the look of it, not in quite a few contributors, lol.
Maybe I should take aim at this, the law is the tree of Knowledge and Christ is
the tree of life. Christ is a tree, and the law or book is a tree also (odd, Adam
and Eve eat a book )

I mean was Moses and Elijah born again? Must have been to appear on the
mountain of transfiguration.

PeterJens · Apr 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Your point is simple, but just accepting sin as ok does not change defeat.
You are saying in effect easy believism.

I would preach love and an open transformed heart. Your message seems
to blame believers and judgementalism for people leaving the church rather
than wealth and cynicism linked to the rise of atheism. Add to this the breakdown
of family life, morality, pornography and rise of abortion and rebellion, do you think
people will side with conservative conventional faith that just says believe this book
and it will all be ok. How much of the church actually knew what they believed
and lived it. It would suggest to me, not that many.

gb9 · Apr 21, 2017

PeterJens said:

What is interesting is the cohorts of those not actually interested in the subject
but waiting around to snipe.

My point actually has been proved, because there has been no answer.

The funny thing about victory is the defeated never admit it, they just are silent.
The power is in the fact they know they have to come out with some new positions
because the old ones have fallen apart.

I remember when to even suggest we could be pure and holy was like heresy.
Next the sermon on the mount was not for today.

The next is the old covenant is redundant and the new is totally different.
But in reality the new covenant is the moral law written on our hearts.

And from the look of it, not in quite a few contributors, lol.
Maybe I should take aim at this, the law is the tree of Knowledge and Christ is
the tree of life. Christ is a tree, and the law or book is a tree also (odd, Adam
and Eve eat a book )

I mean was Moses and Elijah born again? Must have been to appear on the
mountain of transfiguration.

what point has been proven?? what point, other than promoting your own ( laughable ) self righteousness , have you made. grace7, d.c., preacher 4 truth have totally proved you wrong. your refusal to admit this does not cancel the truth. they are right, you are wrong.

Grace777x70 · Apr 21, 2017

The sky is still blue....

preacher4truth · Apr 21, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Can you show me any Scripture that supports this? And, that these are to be referred to as those that "love Jesus in their heart'" but have abandoned His Bride?

I don't buy it (it's purely subjective).

A couple Scriptures come to mind; John 10:27 and 1 John 2:19.

One should never comfort one of these as a believer who "loves Jesus in their heart" because the Scriptures themselves do not do this. There are many today who are not in church for whatever reason, and these all tell me how much they love Jesus and that they "know what's in their heart". So does Jesus, their hearts are evil, and they are not seeking God.

Don't be deceived, brothers and sisters with the false sentimentalism that assures those who have left of having salvation and of their sincere love for Jesus.

I am not attempting to make this brother angry, but I am setting the record straight.

PeterJens · Apr 21, 2017

gb9 said:

gb9 - repeating the same propoganda shows nothing.

The light of Christ on unbelief and sin will stop those listening to people who do
not demonstrate the resurrection of Christ and the Holy Spirit in their lives.

You obviously do not understand how this works. People come to Christ searching
for life and love within their hearts given by God.

You actually offer only defeat and self condemnation with a mixture of platitudes
as to why nothing will change until we see Christ return. I hope you are happy with
this, but it is meaningless, and when persecution begins you will know why.

Christ came to bring live and love into sinful lost hearts, and if you walk with Him
and believe in Him you will find it. So I emplore you to exercise faith, and reach out
and ask Him to show you. This is life eternal, the walk that will never end.

Pharisees and arrogance

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