TRIBULATION LIE

[Bladerunner]

You need to read "all" of Matthew 24 brother. The "generation" spoken of is the Generation of "the future". Yahushua is talking about the future Tribulation spoken of by the Prophets and by John in the book of Revelation, not the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Yes, there are parellels, when Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD many Jews did flee to Petra in the mountains, as Yahushua said to do, Messianic Jews. But this was all a foreshadow and Prophetic picture of the Greater world wide Tribulation that was and is yet to come. Jerusalem will be surrounded again in the end time, that's what we read in Zechariah and Revelation, and when the antichrist comes we are comanded to flee and hide. And why would we be told to do that if there was a "rapture" coming to save us from the trouble? Again read Matthew 24 in full. The clean undisputed context is the future Tribulation.

AbdiyEL...Matthew was Jewish and he wrote what Jesus stated from a Jewish point of view. The Tribulations (Daniel's 70th week) are completely designed by GOD for the Gathering of His People, Israel. Although roughly 2/3 of the Jewish population at the beginning of the Tribulations (Daniel's 70th week) will die because they do not convert to Christianity.

The Parallels you speak of are close between 70AD and the end times are limited to Christians fleeing the city. The armies you speak of surrounding Jerusalem in 70AD does not happen in the end times. The end time parallels are more closely matched with 167BC where the Abomination of Desolate did happen with Antiochus Epiphanies desecrated the temple with an Idol of Zeus. In the end time, the (antichrist/Satan) Beast will desecrate the temple (the 3rd temple) by calling himself GOD. When the Jewish people (believers/Messianic) see this, they are to flee.

Even here there is a difference. In 70AD not one Christian was killed because they escaped (another story within itself), but they did not have GOD's help fleeing. In the end time, Satan having been pushed out of heaven and merged with the Anti-christ, chases the Woman(israel) as they flee to Petra. God intervenes and save them from him and feeds and waters them. He also does this one other thing as spoken by Ezekiel 36:26-28. Here the believers are Justified by God.

Ezekiel 36:26-28 (KJV)...."26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."

And then you ask: "And why would we be told to do that if there was a "rapture" coming to save us from the trouble? "

The rapture is for the removal of the Church (all believers in Jesus) prior to the Tribulations. God has told us he will spare us from the His wrath. However, His people (Jewish) are preordained to go through the Tribulations in order to bring them back to HIM >>>>>as Hosea 5:15 states......"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

you said: "Again read Matthew 24 in full.",,, I have many many times.

 

[Bladerunner]

He is reigning in Heaven with the SOULS of the martyrs
Only by you. Revelation 20 does not mention Jerusalem, nor does it say He is reigning on earth,
Both in Heaven where He is reigning
yes they rule with Jesus in Heaven.
Irrelevant to the issue. Christ reigns for '1000 years' (a long period of time) in Heaven
It fits perfectly when understood correctly. It is the word of God. It is modern interpretations that trash it.
Funny, so did I. And I interpret it that way,

Do other books of the Bible Count or are they too Irrelevant????? Well here are a Few.....!!!!

Isaiah 2:2-4 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (Read More...)

Isaiah 65:25 - The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Zechariah 8:3 - Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Zechariah 14:16 - And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Zechariah 14:4 - And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Daniel 7:27 - And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[GaryA]

There are two Greek words where they use the word SHORTLY, en & tachos....so using one English word just feels like they shortchanged the meaning.

EN (Greek 1772) = meaning a fixed position in place, time or state.

TACHOS (Greek 5034 from 5036) 1) Quickness, speed....From 5036 meaning a brief space (of time) that is, (with G1722 PREFIXED) in haste + quickly + shortly + speedily. —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)


So it seems like this might mean that at a fixed point in time his will come QUICKLY. I find to many people just trust blindly in the English translations. We have computers and thus God has given us the means to understand things deeper than ever before.

No -- the translators knew what they were doing...


Strongs: G5034

5034 tachos takh'-os

from the same as 5036; a brief space (of time),
i.e. (with 1722 prefixed) in haste:--+ quickly, + shortly, + speedily.

Strongs: ταχει


What you have to understand, however, is that - those two words - along with the two words before them ( in the Greek ) - all taken together - mean:

"Must Shortly Begin To Come To Pass"


The [ Strongs G1772 word ] - by itself - does not define the meaning for the context of the verse. It is a modifier for the [ Strongs G5034 word ] - changing the "sense and tense" of that word.


Further explanation, with additional highlighting:

Your focus is on G5034. My focus is on G1096.

must G1163 shortly G1722 G5034 come to pass G1096

The whole phrase - all of the words taken together - mean:

"Must Shortly Begin To Come To Pass"

The "Begin To" is part of G1096.

Using the bolded words from your G5034 above -- it is saying:

"After only a brief space (of time), [ these ] things will begin to come to pass."

The ~ 2000 years is "associated" with the meaning of G1096, not the meaning of G5034.

Go back and read the 'GRA' quote in post #62 again...

EDIT: The verse does not say how long it will take for the 'things' to all come to pass; it only says that it will be a short time until the 'things' begin to come to pass.

The notation in the above quote regarding "post #62" is referring to this:

And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. ~ Revelation 22:6

Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. ~ Revelation 22:7

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. ~ Revelation 22:10

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ~ Revelation 22:12

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. ~ Revelation 22:20

...


Consider:

Strong's G1096 for "come to pass" in Revelation 1:1

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

When I cannot find a specific definition tied to a particular usage - I generally use the first one, which is usually the most common usage. And, since most of these definitions carry with it the idea of "beginning and continuing" anyway -- I am going to suggest that the true "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Must Shortly Come To Pass' actually means "Must Shortly Begin To Come To Pass"...

And - yes - the phrase "shortly come to pass" in Revelation 1:1 and the phrase "shortly be done" in Revelation 22:6 are the same in the Greek.

"Something to think about..."

 

[GaryA]

The phrase "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" refers to the powers of darkness not overcoming the church, whom all true believers wrestle against, as in the following:

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Eph. 6:12

Don't you think that - at whatever point in time the church were to cease to exist on the Earth - that - the powers of darkness "will have won" - since - the church is gone, yet the powers of darkness remain...???

I say it is the truth that the 'church' is not going anywhere... Jesus will return ( to stay ) -- and, the 'church' is not leaving... It will be here at least 1000 years beyond the Second Coming of Christ ( and beyond that on the New Earth, with the New Jerusalem, etc. ). Until after hell is thrown into the lake of fire, the 'church' will be on the Earth. I believe that scripture tells us this.

I realize that the general definition for Strongs G2729 is "to overpower"; therefore, the idea of "not overcoming" is certainly valid. However, the verse does specifically say that it is "the gates of hell" that will not accomplish it. I am not so sure that the equivalence to [ the general idea of ] "powers of darkness" is necessarily as valid. I believe that the true-and-proper understanding rests in the question:

What does it mean for the "gates of hell" to "prevail against" the 'church'?

Jesus could just as easily have said:

The powers of darkness shall not prevail against it.

But, He did not...

I believe that the "full" meaning of this statement is not just a simple "general" / "generic" idea like "powers of darkness"...

 

[GaryA]

Yes sir...the starting and the Ending..

Could you explain this further?

 

[GaryA]

p.s. I did name the semi-colon as a colon. My Bad.

You said colon. So, I thought you were talking about the colon.

ARE YOU that SURE????Really......because I AM that SURE about the happening of the RAPTURE.

I am quite sure that there is no 'pre-trib' rapture in the Bible.

We can simply "agree to disagree agreeably"...

 

[GaryA]

Therefore immediately after the great tribulation of the Jews in 70 AD, Christ is seen with the armies of heaven. He was coming to pass judgment and to execute wrath on those who killed Him. Those of that "faithless and perverse" generation.

This is an assumption that I refuse to make.

Is there any room for doubt here?

Absolutely, there is...

What else did Christ say in Mat 24?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

This can only mean that the generation which killed Him would see EVERYTHING that Christ foretold and it will all happen in their generation.

Please see post #203.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Don't you think that - at whatever point in time the church were to cease to exist on the Earth - that - the powers of darkness "will have won" - since - the church is gone, yet the powers of darkness remain...???

The Restrainer (the Holy Spirit through the indwelling of the church) is currently holding back the full force of sin and keeping the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. This removing of the Restrainer and the emergence of the antichrist is apart of God's wrath.

Regarding the "powers of darkness will have won," that will definitely be the outcome. For when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan and his angels will be restricted to the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign. So no, the powers of darkness do not win, but are defeated when the Lord returns to end the age.

I say it is the truth that the 'church' is not going anywhere... Jesus will return ( to stay ) -- and, the 'church' is not leaving... It will be here at least 1000 years beyond the Second Coming of Christ ( and beyond that on the New Earth, with the New Jerusalem, etc. )

The church is definitely going to be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Because the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, at some point before the first seal is opened the following must and will take place:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

So, according to the scripture above, the Lord went to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for all believers and is going to come back and take us back to the Father's house, that where the Lord is believers may be also.

In regards to the 1000 years, scripture makes clear the chronological order, which is as follows:

Gathering of the church

The fulfillment of that last seven years during which time God's wrath will be poured out

The Lord returns to end the age at the end of the seven years (second coming)

Satan and his angels are restricted in the Abyss

Thousand year reign of Christ

At the end of the thousand years Satan is cast into the lake of fire

Great white throne judgment of all the unrighteous dead

Eternity ..................................................................................

 

[GaryA]

NOW let me ask you...... What Tribulations happened in 70AD that would have killed everybody in the WORLD had they not been shortened.

The one we are in right now. It started 70 A.D. It ends in the future. It will be "shortened" in the future. The worst is yet to come.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The one we are in right now. It started 70 A.D. It ends in the future. It will be "shortened" in the future. The worst is yet to come.

The tribulation period did not start in 70 AD. The tribulation period will take place during that last seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation, which begins with the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years. Jesus made it clear that it will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. It will be so bad that if those days were allowed to go on any longer than that last 3 1/2 years, no one would be left alive. That said, the destruction of the temple in no way fits that description.

 

[Johnny_B]

The Restrainer (the Holy Spirit through the indwelling of the church) is currently holding back the full force of sin and keeping the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. This removing of the Restrainer and the emergence of the antichrist is apart of God's wrath.

Regarding the "powers of darkness will have won," that will definitely be the outcome. For when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan and his angels will be restricted to the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign. So no, the powers of darkness do not win, but are defeated when the Lord returns to end the age.



The church is definitely going to be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Because the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, at some point before the first seal is opened the following must and will take place:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

So, according to the scripture above, the Lord went to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for all believers and is going to come back and take us back to the Father's house, that where the Lord is believers may be also.

In regards to the 1000 years, scripture makes clear the chronological order, which is as follows:

Gathering of the church

The fulfillment of that last seven years during which time God's wrath will be poured out

The Lord returns to end the age at the end of the seven years (second coming)

Satan and his angels are restricted in the Abyss

Thousand year reign of Christ

At the end of the thousand years Satan is cast into the lake of fire

Great white throne judgment of all the unrighteous dead

Eternity ..................................................................................

Paul is speaking about the same thing, our resurrection bodies or being changed in the twinkling of an eye we are transformed. II Corinthians 5:1-5 "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

I Corinthians 15:51-54 "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:"

The whole idea of the Marriage Supper of the Lamp is exactly the way it happens in the near east, in Christ's time. The son adds on to the fathers house, the bride never knew when he was coming to get her and her brides maids to celebrate, the son didn't know either. One day the father would tell the son go get your bride, so he would go and get her with her brides maid and they would celebrate with a big feast. That's why He used the parable of the ten virgins or brides maids. Also in that the father is the one that chooses the bride for the son, like Abraham did for Isaac, in the same way the Father chooses the Son's Bride in election. The Father picks the Bride and the Bride responds to the call to be His Son's Bride. Is He directly choosing the other women to not be the Bride, no, He is simply passing over them. He sets His heart in love towards the Bride/elect/chosen, just like in,

Deuteronomy 10:15 “Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.”

 

[GaryA]

I would suggest you look to REV 11 to Find out what the Great Tribulations are!

Everything described in Revelation 11:3-19 is 'post-trib'. No part of it is describing events that occur during the Great Tribulation.

They did not happen in 70AD nor did they happen in 167BC.

The Great Tribulation began in 70 A.D.

OH, the Abomination of Desolation did not happen in 70AD either

I believe this statement to actually be correct. I believe that the Abomination of Desolation actually occurred in 167 B.C. I believe that the event mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24:15 / Mark 13:14 actually occurred in 70 A.D. And, the key to understanding why and how this is - is found in the phrase "whoso readeth, let him understand" ( Matthew ) / "let him that readeth understand" ( Mark ).

 

[PrynceNY]

Everything described in Revelation 11:3-19 is 'post-trib'. No part of it is describing events that occur during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation began in 70 A.D. I believe this statement to actually be correct. I believe that the Abomination of Desolation actually occurred in 167 B.C. I believe that the event mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24:15 / Mark 13:14 actually occurred in 70 A.D. And, the key to understanding why and how this is - is found in the phrase "whoso readeth, let him understand" ( Matthew ) / "let him that readeth understand" ( Mark ).

If you believe the Great Tribulation began in 70 A.D you are in for a huge surprise when it actually does begin.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Everything described in Revelation 11:3-19 is 'post-trib'. No part of it is describing events that occur during the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 11:3-19 will take place during that last seven years. The reference to the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days, is making reference to the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Likewise in Rev.13:5-7, the beast will be given authority over the great tribulation saints for 42 months, which is making reference to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

All of this will be going on during the seven year period, which is the tribulation. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the activities of the beast, all make up the tribulation/great tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Paul is speaking about the same thing, our resurrection bodies or being changed in the twinkling of an eye we are transformed. II Corinthians 5:1-5 "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

I Corinthians 15:51-54 "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:"

The whole idea of the Marriage Supper of the Lamp is exactly the way it happens in the near east, in Christ's time. The son adds on to the fathers house, the bride never knew when he was coming to get her and her brides maids to celebrate, the son didn't know either. One day the father would tell the son go get your bride, so he would go and get her with her brides maid and they would celebrate with a big feast. That's why He used the parable of the ten virgins or brides maids. Also in that the father is the one that chooses the bride for the son, like Abraham did for Isaac, in the same way the Father chooses the Son's Bride in election. The Father picks the Bride and the Bride responds to the call to be His Son's Bride. Is He directly choosing the other women to not be the Bride, no, He is simply passing over them. He sets His heart in love towards the Bride/elect/chosen, just like in,

Deuteronomy 10:15 “Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.”

I Totally agree! 1 Thes.4:13-17 will be the fulfillment of John 14:1-3. The Lord's promise to come back to take us back to the Father's house, is when the dead in Christ shall rise first and then we who are still alive will be changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up. From there the Lord will take the whole church back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he prepared for us.

 

[GaryA]

The Restrainer (the Holy Spirit through the indwelling of the church) is currently holding back the full force of sin and keeping the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. This removing of the Restrainer and the emergence of the antichrist is apart of God's wrath.

Regarding the "powers of darkness will have won," that will definitely be the outcome. For when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan and his angels will be restricted to the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign. So no, the powers of darkness do not win, but are defeated when the Lord returns to end the age.



The church is definitely going to be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Because the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, at some point before the first seal is opened the following must and will take place:

"[/I][/I]In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

So, according to the scripture above, the Lord went to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for all believers and is going to come back and take us back to the Father's house, that where the Lord is believers may be also.

In regards to the 1000 years, scripture makes clear the chronological order, which is as follows:

Gathering of the church

The fulfillment of that last seven years during which time God's wrath will be poured out

The Lord returns to end the age at the end of the seven years (second coming)

Satan and his angels are restricted in the Abyss

Thousand year reign of Christ

At the end of the thousand years Satan is cast into the lake of fire

Great white throne judgment of all the unrighteous dead

Eternity ..................................................................................

< Cups hand to ear while staring indistinctly into the air... >

"Do I hear a tape playing...?"

The tribulation period did not start in 70 AD. The tribulation period will take place during that last seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation, which begins with the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years. Jesus made it clear that it will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. It will be so bad that if those days were allowed to go on any longer than that last 3 1/2 years, no one would be left alive. That said, the destruction of the temple in no way fits that description.

"Yes! Yes! I believe I do hear a tape playing!"

 

[Ahwatukee]

If you believe the Great Tribulation began in 70 A.D you are in for a huge surprise when it actually does begin.

I totally agree! I continue to say it, that many have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. They have watered it down so that it doesn't have the same impact. But what is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will not be like anything the world has ever experienced. By the time the Lord returns to the earth after God's wrath has been completed, most of the population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled and that in preparation for the Lord's millennial kingdom.

 

[GaryA]

If you believe the Great Tribulation began in 70 A.D you are in for a huge surprise when it actually does begin.

I am not sure you understand what I am saying. Did you read post #209?

 

[Ahwatukee]

"Do I hear a tape playing...?"

Well GaryA, it is the same scriptural information based on cross-referencing and comparing scripture that I continue to proclaim to you and that because you don't listen.

I provide the scriptures and their chronological order and the why's and howcomes, but you don't listen. I also tell you why your interpretation is in error, but you don't listen to those reasons either.

The tribulation/great tribulation will all take place during that last seven year period, where God will fulfill the prophesies regarding Israel and at the same time pour out his wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. In the mean time, believers will continue to go through the trials and tribulation which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Once the church has been removed, then the tribulation, which is God's direct wrath, will begin to be poured upon this world.

 

[PrynceNY]

I am not sure you understand what I am saying. Did you read post #209?

There is only one Great Tribulation that takes place in the scriptures not multiple