TRIBULATION LIE

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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Brother PlainWord,


Yes, there are several places that mention or allude to a period on earth after the events of 66-70 AD (AKA, "the great tribulation"). You point one such place out, "some flesh being saved (from the GT)." Later in Mt 24 and into Mt 25, more is said about the period after 70 AD, the separating of sheep and goat nations (Christian and non-Christian), etc.


What is the flesh, and how is it saved?

Is the flesh Israel?


Another prominent place where life after 70 AD is discussed is the later part of Isa 65 (starting at verse 17) and all of chapter 66. This time of peace, figuratively written as the "wolf lying with the lamb" and the "lion eating straw" is a good illustration. During the GT of 66-70 AD, there was no food and starvation was rampant. Little babies, children and old people had food taken from their mouths. Babies were starved to death and in some cases, actually being cooked and eaten. The weak could not defend themselves so they died early, "not fulfilling their days."
The images are showing the Holy Spirit in the kingdom age.

The lion and snake etc., are showing that the spirit of the attackers (Satan spirit), is now the same spirit as the lamb, the Holy Spirit.

They have the same bodies, but the spirit of the "beasts" have changed.

When a person receives the gift of the Holy Spirit in the kingdom, they are supposed to become like Jesus, the Lamb.

It's not literal.



These horrific conditions (Isaiah tells us) will end when God creates a "new heaven and earth" for His people. This is all symbolic language describing an extended period after the war.
But those conditions didn't change after 70 AD., they remained and Israel was attacked by the Roman iron dragon beast for 1900+ years.

They didn't end.
 
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Ellsworth1943

Guest
While this is addressed to someone else, I will give you more than one verse. But that does not mean you will believe it. You will only try to find a way to wiggle out of the truth. Anyhow I will post several verses for you WHICH MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO A TRIBULATION AND SHOW ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO ONE.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:42).

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:44)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13)

Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning (Mk 13:35)

And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. (Mk 13:37)

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.(Lk 21:36)

None of these verses, nor all of them together, prove a pre-trib rapture.
I think the wiggle may be on your part when you try to make them prove what they do not.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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None of these verses, nor all of them together, prove a pre-trib rapture.
I think the wiggle may be on your part when you try to make them prove what they do not.
You just proved from your response that you would NOT believe Scripture even after several verses were presented to you. Since not one of them makes any reference to the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation, or any connection to those events, that is sufficient proof. The Rapture has always been -- and remains -- imminent.
 
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Ellsworth1943

Guest


Greetings Ellsworth1943,

The timing of the gathering of the church cannot be found by any one scripture saying "here is where the church is gathered." It is understood by the cross-referencing and comparing of all related scriptures. That said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out His wrath during that last seven years. It is the fulfillment of the long prophesied day of the Lord. Regarding God's coming wrath, scripture states the following:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - 1 Thes.1:9-10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth" - Rev.3:10

Now, what many do in order to protect their positions is to say that the wrath that is being spoken of in the scriptures above is that the final wrath in the lake of fire, which they are not. The point is moot anyway because those who have received Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God and therefore will not be exposed to God's coming wrath upon this earth nor condemning judgment in the lake of fire.

Another explanation that people will give is that God is going to protect His church while in the midst of his wrath. Anyone who says this does not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet alone (a fourth and a third respectively), over half of the earths population will be killed and that is not including the fatalities that will be caused by trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities resulting in the bowl judgments, which are just not mentioned. Instead of protecting the righteous in the midst of God's wrath, the Lord will keep His promise by removing His church prior to His coming wrath.

But in answer to your question, the closest scripture that we can come to that demonstrates that the church is in heaven while God's wrath is being poured out upon the earth is found in Rev.19:6-8 and 14:

"Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." - Rev.19:6-8

"And the armies who were in heaven, having been clothed in fine line, white and clean were following Him upon white horses." - Rev.19:14

Now, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride which is another designation for the church, receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven. Then verse 14 shows that same group following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she will have previously received at the wedding of the Lamb. The point being is that, the church, as the bride, is seen in heaven receiving her fine linen and then is seen following the Lord out of heaven as he returns to the earth to end the age. in order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you would have to already be in heaven. In further support that the church will have already been gathered in heaven and will be following the Lord out of heaven, we have the following:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The scripture above is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as detailed in Rev.19:11-21. The reference to "They will wage war against the Lamb" is referring to the nations gathered at Armageddon. And returning with the Lord will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers," i.e. the church which will have been gathered and will be following the Lord out of heaven.

I hope that you will honestly consider the proof that can be found in these scriptures, for they demonstrate that the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath and will be returning to the earth with the Lord to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.



The point to this is that, since the wrath of God begins with the opening of that first seal, then the church must be gathered prior to when it is opened.
Too much to address in one post, but you did not prove your point.
First--- Rev. 3:10 is addressed to the church at Sardis, not to todays Christians.
Second---Yes, we will escape God's wrath, but the seals and trumps are not God's wrath. They are the great tribulation that Jesus said would come. And Rev. 6:17 is not the announcement of God's wrath. Rev. 6:17 is just the false assumption of the lost who are suffering tribulation. God's wrath is announced in Rev. 11:18 after the sounding of the seventh trump. The wrath is identified in Rev.15 and 16 as the seven vials.
Third---You complete ignore II Thess. 2:3 & 4 when you say the church will be raptured before the first seal.

What I see with you is someone who is forcing the Scripture to fit a belief.
I have heard the argument you make, almost word for word, for years. Nothing new here.
 
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Ellsworth1943

Guest
You just proved from your response that you would NOT believe Scripture even after several verses were presented to you. Since not one of them makes any reference to the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation, or any connection to those events, that is sufficient proof. The Rapture has always been -- and remains -- imminent.
Your statement that it is imminent ignores II Thess. 2:3 & 4, and calls Paul a liar.
 

Roadkill

Senior Member
Dec 19, 2017
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Your statement that it is imminent ignores II Thess. 2:3 & 4, and calls Paul a liar.
Absolutely true. The Anti Christ must be revealed first.

6 He will be 60 years old when he takes power but will appear as if he is in his mid 30's
6 He will be the 6th Anti Christ
6 Power Point countries will he be in his coalition.
 
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Ellsworth1943

Guest
Absolutely true. The Anti Christ must be revealed first.

6 He will be 60 years old when he takes power but will appear as if he is in his mid 30's
6 He will be the 6th Anti Christ
6 Power Point countries will he be in his coalition.
You do express your OPINION don't you!
First time I have heard this definition of 666.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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Hello Sam23

Sorry to say you are flogging a very dead horse by letting logical and scriptural truth get in the way of peoples emotional comfort blanket. The Pre Trib rapture belief is overwhelmingly popular in some mainly American evangelical circles because it appears to offer an escape from any unpleasant prospect of persecution. All that nasty business is left for the Jews and the mythical ''tribulation saints''
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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The problem here is Pre-tribbers are NOT discussing. They are only lecturing. And there are too many loose ends and holes in the theory.

I WANT there to be a pre-trib rapture! Who would rather go through something the hard way than be rescued out of it? But I'm not going to buy into something on that basis alone.

At the moment, for me, the emperor is still not wearing any clothes.
 
Nov 19, 2016
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I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, is already here now with us. - The Holy Bible has been completed.
(http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/162568-has-jesus-christ-returned.html)

I do not believe anyone on this planet is really going to suffer tribulation, like the Apostles, and believers that where way before we were here.

I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to destory the world.

Anyone who believes in God has it made because of, the Lord Jesus Christ, thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ. (I understand that in other countries however there are people that may end up killing human beings for gang related reasons and these things go on every day, any country.) (Nothing new under the sun)

But the point is that we have access to the Lord Jesus Christ, and direct access to the Father, to talk to them who care about everything that goes on in our lives daily.

Love God, and Love others. :)
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, is already here now with us. - The Holy Bible has been completed.
(http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/162568-has-jesus-christ-returned.html)

I do not believe anyone on this planet is really going to suffer tribulation, like the Apostles, and believers that where way before we were here.

I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to destory the world.

Anyone who believes in God has it made because of, the Lord Jesus Christ, thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ. (I understand that in other countries however there are people that may end up killing human beings for gang related reasons and these things go on every day, any country.) (Nothing new under the sun)

But the point is that we have access to the Lord Jesus Christ, and direct access to the Father, to talk to them who care about everything that goes on in our lives daily.

Love God, and Love others. :)
Yer not going to get much traction with the futurist believers Matt - especially the pre-tribbers.

Jesus told them to flee Jerusalem before the start of the great tribulation:

Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains

Mat 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

The fact is they were told to flee, nothing to do with being "raptured" before or after.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Let's look at whether they where told to flee or promised to be raptured:

(Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

(Luke 21:21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

(Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Escape in Luke 21:36 has it's root in "run away":

Strongs

G5343 pheugo fyoo'-go

apparently a primary verb;

to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.

KJV: escape, flee (away).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Escape:

G1628 ekpheugo ek-fyoo'-go

from G1537 and G5343;

to flee out.

KJV: escape, flee.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

No flees on me...:p
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Let's look at whether they where told to flee or promised to be raptured:

(Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

(Luke 21:21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

(Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Escape in Luke 21:36 has it's root in "run away":

Strongs

G5343 pheugo fyoo'-go

apparently a primary verb;

to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.

KJV: escape, flee (away).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Escape:

G1628 ekpheugo ek-fyoo'-go

from G1537 and G5343;

to flee out.

KJV: escape, flee.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

No flees on me...:p
It's a valid point you make. Pray that you may be able to escape is not the same as being suddenly taken away with the church as a whole.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
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adelaiderevival.com
I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, is already here now with us. - The Holy Bible has been completed.
I do not believe anyone on this planet is really going to suffer tribulation, like the Apostles, and believers that where way before we were here.
I do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back to destory the world.
Love God, and Love others. :)
Mate, what planet do you live on?
How naïve can one be?

The idea that Jesus Christ is already here is totally and utterly against the scriptures.
He may be with us through the indwelling Holy Spirit but he has not returned to Earth.
Jesus dwells in Heaven and when he returns in power and glory every eye shall behold him.

And God will allow this Earth to be destroyed by both our own wickedness (nuclear war) and by natural calamities (earthquakes in diverse places).
Why is this so?
To save his church - the saints - and to distinguish the true gospel from all other counterfeits and false religions.
To deal with the recalcitrant Jews who still deny Jesus as their Messiah.
To bring an end the government of Satan.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;[SUP]27 [/SUP]When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:[SUP]29 [/SUP]For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:[SUP]30 [/SUP]They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.[SUP]32 [/SUP]For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But whoso hearkens unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
Proverbs 1:

 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Matt is in no way naive - the kingdom is not visible, and never will be:

Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation;

Luke 17:21 “nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Looking "around you" is precisely the mistake the Pharisees made.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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If folks would ever get the picture of how dangerous a false pre-trib rapture would be, then maybe they would take the time to really see what the bible is saying about the return of Christ to gather the church. The biggest lie spread by the false pre-trib rapture folks is that the tribulation is the wrath of God and that during the tribulation period, after the church is gone(according to them) vast numbers of people will be saved. They have to claim vast numbers of folks are saved during the tribulation in order to maintain the false pre-trib rapture because Rev tells us of vast numbers of Christians who came through the great tribulation. Of course it would be easier to just believe the church has to go through the tribulation as Jesus taught, but they will have none of that. Anyway, here is the pre-trib scenario, just before the Antichrist and the tribulation appear and begin, the church will be raptured, all the Christians will be GONE. Now the Antichrist begins his reign and demands that EVERYONE take the mark of the Beast, since there are no Christians left(according to pre-trib), and ONLY Christians will refuse to take the mark, therefore everyone in the world takes the mark. Also, after one takes the mark they cannot be saved. So we have a real problem here for an honest person, how do you get vast numbers of saved persons out of a world that contains only people that have the mark of the Beast??? You don't of course because the tribulation saints in Rev 7 were saints before the tribulation and did not get gathered until AFTER the tribulation.
First of all, the tribulation is God's tribulation, not Satan's or man's, but God's. What believers have been suffering from on-set of the church until this present day, are those trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would experience. Once the church has been gathered, the revealing of the antichrist will take place and God's tribulation, His wrath will begin, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring.

The problem is that you are pigeonholing the word "tribulation" and applying your own meaning to it in order to support your belief that the church is going to go through tribulation which you don't recognize as being God's, but man's or Satan's.

If folks would ever get the picture of how dangerous a false pre-trib rapture would be, then maybe they would take the time to really see what the bible is saying about the return of Christ to gather the church.
There is nothing dangerous about having faith in the Lord's promise to rescue believers from the coming wrath. As believers we should always be prepared to endure whatever trials and tribulations the Lord allows us to go through, even unto death. So true believers who have this spirit are not in any danger. For if things happened the way that you are claiming, then we would simply be prepared to deal with that tribulation and even death. We wouldn't throw up our hands and say "Oh no tribulation! I quit!" Believers are waiting on the following promise:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

First of all, notice that the Lord says, "Don't let your hearts be troubled." Well, they certainly would be troubled if we were to go through God's wrath, which you interpret as tribulation coming from mankind and not from God.

In the scripture above we have Jesus telling his disciples, as well as all believers, that he is going to prepare dwelling places for us in the Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven. And that at some point the Lord is coming back to take those who believe in him back to those dwelling places in heaven, that where he is all believers may be also. Therefore, that event must take place at some point, regardless of the controversy of its timing and that because it is written.

1 Thes.4:13-18 is a detailed account of the scripture above, when Jesus descends from heaven and the dead in Christ rise first, with those in Christ who are still alive being caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.

The event above, the gathering of the church, must take place prior to God's wrath, which you call tribulation. The entire seven years, which begins with the first seal being opened, is God's tribulation/wrath and that because it is the fulfillment of the seventy sets of seven years that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Dan.9:24-27. And according to Dan.2:31-45, God will also be dealing with the rest of the world for their sin and rejection of His Son. The on-going error is the interpretation of tribulation.

Persecution and tribulation began at the on-set of the church and continues to this present day

The appearing of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living takes place

First seal is opened, which represents the antichrist and the beginning of God's wrath, His tribulation.

We have multiple scriptures stating that believers are not going to go through God's wrath. So the way in which people distort that, is by reinterpreting God's tribulation to mean man's or Satan's tribulation.

rapture because Rev tells us of vast numbers of Christians who came through the great tribulation.
Those believers in Christ who come through the great tribulation are the saints that will have become believers after the church will have been gathered. The very fact that the elder is introducing them to John and asking them who they are, demonstrates that this group is other than the church. That is why you never see them referred to as the church and that because the church will have already been gathered. That is unless you think that it is a coincidence that the word "church" is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, but from chapter 4 onward the word "church' never used again. Those mentioned from Rev.5:8 onward is referring to the great tribulation saints and not the church.

Now the Antichrist begins his reign and demands that EVERYONE take the mark of the Beast, since there are no Christians left(according to pre-trib), and ONLY Christians will refuse to take the mark, therefore everyone in the world takes the mark.
This is only half correct, as the church will be gone, but those who become believers after the gathering, those great tribulation saints, will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, as the follow scripture demonstrates:

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. "

So, these saints that will become believers after the gathering and during the time of God's wrath and the reign of the beast, are those who will not worship the beast, his image nor will they receive his mark and many of them will die keeping their testimony of Christ.

So we have a real problem here for an honest person, how do you get vast numbers of saved persons out of a world that contains only people that have the mark of the Beast??? You don't of course because the tribulation saints in Rev 7 were saints before the tribulation and did not get gathered until AFTER the tribulation.
Again, it is because a you don't have full understanding of the scriptures. There is no problem when you understand that after the church is gathered there will be those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 who is that group in white robes which no man can count from every tribe, nation, people and language, which makes them Gentiles, and who will become believers after the church has been gathered. referred to as the saints who come out of the great tribulation. It is these who will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. The church will already be gone!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Prior to this John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Therefore the fact that the elder is asking John who this group is would demonstrate that they are not the church. In further support of this, the elder asks John who they are and he doesn't know, ergo, they are not the church.

So your problem is not having all of the related end-time information in order to make a right conclusion.
 
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OtherWay210

Guest
The original poster of this thread, made sense. Bible will not support a rapture.
 
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OtherWay210

Guest
Christ was telling them trouble not, because of His death to come on the cross .Its the last supper. Not the tribulation. Follow the subject.

Christ gives us rest unto our souls. Not the body. Mansion in Greek is resting place. Its not literally a mansion.

When Christ returns, AFTER the tribulation, we will have rest for an Eternity after The Great White Throne Judgement has ended, at the End of the Lords Day. John 14:3 is not about the tribulation. And Christ certainly was not taken from giving His life on the Cross.
 
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OtherWay210

Guest
  • Ahwatukee, you are basing a lot of who the " church " is, or is not,
    based off someone who is being told a vision.

    John is Not the Author of Revelation,
    Christ is. It appears you are reading scriptures out of order, to find exceptions to the rule of What is actually written.

 
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OtherWay210

Guest
Christians are not always referred to as " church ". They are the bride, they are the saints, they are the Elect. And quite frankly, if you are not on Christ, thee rock, then apostasy can certainly follow them who do not know the complete gospel armor as written during the trib.

The tribulation of Satan is one of deception .