JOHN HAGEES FALSE DUAL COVENANT THEOLOGY

J7 · Apr 22, 2017

@3angels
It was the Israelites who rejected Moses, not the Jews

phil36 · Apr 22, 2017

I just listened to the link provided earlier to a Hannegraff video(audio). What was interesting was the actual John Hagee audio clip. Just from Hagee's (ow) clip, anyone who has read even the first two chapters of Matthew, never mind the NT will know that Hagee is giving a false gospel.

I would agree with Hannegraf that the reason guys like Hagee get away with such mishandling and misleading teachings is because of the lack of biblical literacy from those who follow him.. people are easily fooled! Very Sad!

3angels · Apr 22, 2017

J7 said:

Thank you for the correction, J7.

Grace777x70 · Apr 22, 2017

phil36 said:

I agree...this is the process of how church teachings can become traditions and then when the truth comes out - it becomes "the enemy" because this is how we have been believing for 100's of years.

Martin Luther is a prime example of this - he had to go against 1,300 years of church teachings and traditions when he said "The Just shall live by faith".

With that one statement - He held a knife to the throat of one of the sacred cows of the belief system in the minds of the church of his day and all hell broke loose.

This principle is still in effect with all of us when our "sacred cows" throats are threatened.

Rockrz · Apr 22, 2017

He never set any dates, that's a lie.

Jesus said we would know the "season" of His coming... that is not setting any dates. Those not walking with the Lord and who are ignorant of scripture are blind to the "season" we are living in.

The blood moons was not originated with hagee and it just one of many signs of the end times and is no problem biblicaly.

This is what people accuse others of when someone doesn't agree with them... typical satanic attack that should be ignored for the lunacy that it is.

Desertsrose · Apr 22, 2017

joaniemarie said:

Hi Joanie,

Are you not concerned enough to see if this information is true or not?

If someone says some things correct does that make them a pastor, teacher or even a Christian? God spent more time on the topic of warning us against false teaching and false teachers than the topic of love. Why do you think that is?

Because there are ferocious wolves out there that want to devour us. Not for our own sakes, but because we love Jesus. They hate Jesus, they hate God our Father and want to destroy Christianity altogether.

One of the first things I do if someone speaks against a pastor or teacher is to read some of their material or listen to their voice speaking what they believe. I've bought books to see what they teach, but I don't do that anymore because it gets too expensive.

There is a force behind all of this and it's our enemy. I think we should always check things out that are said by any Christian. If they're not speaking truth, they need correction. In Hagee's case, some have tried to bring correction.

As for Ham, yes he was wrong for exposing his father's nakedness. That's totally different from testing to see if a teacher or pastor is genuine. Jesus and the apostles told us many times to watch out and protect the flock from false prophets and teachers. To be on our guard against them. To have nothing to do with them. If you need verses, I can post them for you.

You speak of things you don't know of. It's not our mandate for everyone to just get along. Yes for the genuine believer, but we need to know who they are and not just accept anyone who says I'm a Christian when their fruit says otherwise.

Should we pray for the man that he would give up his heretical teaching - Yes!

joaniemarie · Apr 22, 2017

Desertsrose said:

Hi DesertRose., I hear what you are saying. I apply this accountability factor much differently for these people who I don't know personally who are out in the public eye preaching the Gospel. They are so far removed from all of us and our ability to see their lives as they really are. Words like heretic and cult get thrown out against the brethren too often for me to respect the process. It's done here on CC often enough.

When such "ministries" (and I use that term loosly) like "Wretched" begin tearing down well known preachers "exposing" them as they like to say., I've seen time and time again it's based on what this one said about this doctrine vs what that one said about the lack of that doctrine.

One believes in healing, speaking in tongues while another believes in the rapture of the church while some don't. All about personal convictions on other interpretations held dear to one person and causing them to be angry at another person. These are not what we break fellowship about., And certainly not ever reasons to tear someone down in front of millions while helping to shred their reputations before the world. No way!!., let that not be said of us.

I've discovered it's also about how someone dresses in expensive clothes and what kind of houses they live in or what kind of cars they drive. That's what kind of flimsy stuff their being judged for. People say "if that was me., I'd neeeeeevvvver buy that or live there. I'd give my money to the poor and needy etc...." When who knows how much the other brother gave of the blessings he was blessed with? No one knows such personal info but God. And yet that doesn't stop many Christians from judging anyway.

It's just too easy for us Christians who are home in our living rooms to go judging the more well known popular brothers and sisters for their large ministries who are out there in the world in situations we know nothing about.

Having no idea what God has called them for and how God has brought them through to be used of Him. It's really just old fashioned human carnality that does that kind of judging. Those Christians on the sidelines are more often than not plain old jealous and spiteful just like the Pharisees.

Sort of reminds me of wanna be hunters. They cheat. They come from the city to up state NY and try to become "great white hunters" overnight. So they grow beards for that week and get their new rifles and walk around the stores in their brand new hunting outfits thinking themselves to be hunters.

But they are not real hunters so they don't know how to hunt. They shoot from their cars and shoot anything that moves even a horse in someone's yard if it's not painted with huge orange spots during the day. It's pathetic and so are those who build themselves up by tearing others down.

The kind of accountability your talking about is IMO for a local church. We live in communities together and we know the people personally. There is real accountability in a much different way. We know each other on a one on one level. We see each other's lives during the week in different life situations based more on what is really going on.

And when a church does hold it's members accountable., we do not stand them up before the congregation and shame them and accuse them before all. We take them aside and there is a way to rightly do this spelled out in Scripture about the discipline in a local church.

We can't possibly say that about those who are so far removed from our lives out there in the world leading millions to Christ via tv and internet and large churches in other states or countries. At least I have chosen not to go out on that limb. If I don't agree with certain well known Christians I won't buy their books or support them and I can say I don't agree with them. I don't need to or want to bad mouth them in an open forum. Christians have done it to me more times than not here on CC for me to recognize when it's being done to others.

Desertsrose · Apr 22, 2017

joaniemarie said:

Hi Joanie,

I hear ya and would agree with some of what you say.

I can't speak for others, but when I warn someone of a false teacher, it's because I care about them and because the scriptures tell us to. And if someone on here begins to promote them, I believe it's necessary to speak up and say why they would not be a good teacher to follow.

But I also feel sadness and grief when I've done it. Like I said, I can't speak for the motives behind why others post what they do. My hope is that they are doing it because they love the Lord very much and love their brothers and sisters enough to speak the truth so that if they are caught up in a web that's heretical, they can get out of it.

As far as tv preachers go, they definitely need to be exposed publicly. Even Paul openly rebuked Peter in front of a crowd for his error that we leading others astray to the truth. But the emphasis is on the teaching, that they call themselves a brother with the hope that they will repent.

If it's a member and they haven't sinned against the church, than yeah, it's done privately. The person wronged goes to the one who wronged them. But if it's not taken care of the next step would be to take 2 or 3 others with you and if the person still doesn't repent, the next step is to tell it to the church. Hopefully by that time they've humbled themselves enough to repent. This is how Matthew says to handle it. Finally they're turned over to Satan in the hopes that they'll repent and they are removed from fellowship.

On here, because it's a Christian forum and because Christians gather here for fellowship, sharing, and prayer - we can't do church discipline, but we must speak up when others are saying things that aren't true. It's what this OP has done and in turn, because you disagree, you are speaking up about what you perceive as being false.

I believe it's disingenuous to speak up against an OP without having checked out sources for yourself to see if in this instance, Hagee is really off.......or not.

I'm wondering what the difference is. You won't speak up about Hagee or Osteen, but in your post here you spoke against someone who's Wretched, whatever that means. By saying you don't think we should do this and then you're doing it......it's confusing.....which is it? They can't, but you can?

And to close, when it affects the truth of the gospel as this OP about Hagee does, it needs to be said. There are things we are not to judge, but when it comes to the truth of the gospel, we are to judge all teachings to prove if they are genuine or not and we are to expose those who preach another gospel or a distortion of the true gospel.

I want to leave you with one scripture, although there are many that cover this topic better, but I don't have time at the moment to look them all up.

Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own [i]appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting. Romans 16:17,18

Billyd · Apr 22, 2017

Unlike many here who base their comments on what someone else says, I have listened to John Hagee many times. Most of what I heard was end times prophecy and how we are living in the end of days. I seem to hear a lot of that here. IMHO, Just as I do with many here, I wouldn't place much emphasis on what he says, and I wouldn't send him a penny to continue his ministry. I definitely would not call him a source of authority on scripture. I recommend that every Christian who listens to any sermon, by any speaker, always take some time after hearing it and filter it through the scripture it's based on.

I do sometimes wonder if I have lead as many to Christ, as some of the "heretics" exposed on CC.

Angela53510 · Apr 22, 2017

Joanie Marie, do you understand what a heretic is? It is someone who disagrees, twists or misuses the Bible. Why is it important? Because it divides and leads people astray from the truth of who God is, what he came to do, and how we are to live in light of the Bible, which is Jesus' written words to us!

Grace777 loves to quote this nonsense about Martin Luther being a heretic because he stood against the Roman Catholic Church of the day. This is a half truth! The only truth is that the RCC did call him a heretic. Martin Luther, a doctor of the church and a priest, not only knew Greek, he knew it well enough to translate the Bible from Greek and Hebrew into German, a translation which is still used, although like the KJV in English, it does have obsolete words and grammar, and was translated well before the KJV.

The point being, Martin Luther, despite being a priest, a professor in seminary with a Ph.D, did not know God. Why? Because the false teachings (which is heresy) of the RCC were wrong, and he had no assurance of salvation! What changed all that was NEVER about breaking away from the traditions of the RCC. Luther was searching for the truth in the Scriptures, which he found in Romans 5:1. (Luther was not perfect, but he searched the Scriptures till he found the perfect truth!)

"Therefore since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1 ESV.

This is the doctrine of justification. Is it just a change in tradition?? NO!! This verse shows that we are not justified by works or indulgences, or any other additions. It also agrees with verses like Eph. 2:8-10. And because it was written in the first century, it shows that justification was not something new, some new revelation that Martin Luther dreamed up! No, justification was ALWAYS the only way God saved us!

So is it necessary to stand up to heresy? Well, some are chosen for that! The biblically illiterate, who are being led into heretical doctrine need to be shown, not from tradition, but from the Bible. Sometimes, that needs use of the Greek, especially when people like Joseph Prince, in your feeble devotionals you are for some reason allowed to post, JoanieMarie, have actual wrong translations of the Greek! Although trying to keep up with JP's volume of heretical writing is a bit more than I can do, most days.

I don't think healing and tongues are really included in this discussion of heresy. I know people that detest and hate this charimatic "nonsense." They say it is ended, which it may be. But although I agree with them, in part because I have seen so much dishonesty and irrational emotionalism, in my 15 years in Pentecostal/charismatic churches, no one has yet to prove to me scripturally it is over. Besides the fact, that tongues and healing is really not essential to the cross. It is not basic to Biblical Christian doctrine.

But when the Word Faith people pull verses like Isa. 53 out of context, using bad translations, and apply healing to the atonement, or the cross, then that is crossing the line into heresy.

Christianity is always about the cross! Jesus died for our sins, that is a central tenant of the church, really all Christian churches agree on this. And this is found over and over in the Bible. The atonement is for our sins. The sacrifice on the cross was the last and ultimate, the perfect sacrifice for sin!

Anything added to this Biblical description of the atonement, unless it is supported elsewhere in the Bible is heresy. Yet Word Faith preachers have added "healing" to the cross. On the basis of pulling Isa. 53:5d out of context, and misunderstanding the Hebrew. Since the translators of the Septuagint, the LXX or Greek version of the OT says in verse 4

"4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,and He carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities;
punishment for our peace was on Him,
and we are healed by His wounds.
6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished Him
for[ the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6 HCSB

Please note that verse 4 does not say "He himself bore our sickness." That is from the Hebrew. But the meaning is the same! Where in the OT does it ever say Israel was waiting for a Messiah to heal their bodies?? The promise, given in Gen. 3, was a Savior for sin! And all through the OT! The Bible is written to us, but good hermeneutics demands that we look at who the Bible was first written to. In the case of Isaiah, it was written to a sinful and disobedient generation! Was it ever written about a physically sick people needing healing? No! The prophecies were for a Messiah to heal them of their sin sickness! Not their physical sickness. That is a late 20th and 21st century heresy! The heresy being that verses are twisted to mean something they were never meant to mean! Sin sickness! Healed on the cross! That is what Isa. 53 is about, and why the Jews will not read it to this day in their synagogues.

There are two verses in the NT that quote Isa. 53:5d. Matt 8:17 does not even refer to the cross, but it does see the text as healing being fulfilled in Jesus' earthly ministry. His choice of Greek verbs makes this clear. The other quotation is in 1 Peter 2:24, and does NOT refer to physical healing, either! In a context in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters, even if it means suffering for it, Peter appeals to the example of Christ. The beginning of verse 21 is filled with allusions and citations to Isaiah 53 all of which refer to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. (The NT translation closely follows the Septuagint even when it differs from the Hebrew. Thus, "he himself bore our sins" rather than our sickness!)

"18 Household slaves, submit with all fear to your masters,not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.19 For it brings favor if, mindful of God’s will, someone endures grief from suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is there if you sin and are punished, and you endure it? But when you do what is good and suffer, if you endure it, this brings favor with God.21 For you were called to this,
because Christ also suffered for you,
leaving you an example,
so that you should follow in His steps.
22 He did not commit sin,
and no deceit was found in His mouth;
23 when He was reviled,
He did not revile in return;
when He was suffering,
He did not threaten
but entrusted Himself to the One who judges justly.
24 He Himself bore our sins
in His body on the tree,
so that, having died to sins,
we might live for righteousness;
you have been healed by His wounds.
25 For you were like sheep going astray,
but you have now returned
to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. 1 Peter 2:18-25.

Read this in context, and you will always find "healing from our sins" not sickness! Or put another way, Jesus came to heal us of our sin sickness.

Three basic verses to create a heresy. Three verses to change the entire meaning of the atonement. Three basic verses that have taken people's eyes off of the real meaning of the atonement, caused other people to change the basic means of words like "repentance" to something which makes it nothing to do with sin, which is the message of the Bible. Three basic verses that have been twisted into something which is totally against the center of our faith - Jesus coming to die for our sins, on the cross. Three basic verses that obligate God to heal on demand, which even if this 1/4 part of one verse really meant, good Hermeneutics or Bible Interpretation, requires a lot of verses, everywhere in the Bible to make a foundational doctrine out of it.

Sound Biblical theology means:

1. God must do nothing! God is free to be God. He is sovereign in all things and is simply not under our control.
2. Although God must do nothing, in grace he does all things! No healing is deserved, it is always an expression of God's grace. God does answer pray, because of his mercy and grace and loving kindness!

But, God does not HAVE to heal. Healing is therefore, not a divine obligation, not included in the atonement: It is a divine gift! And precisely because it is a gift, we can make no demands. (like quoting Isa. 53:d over and over when it does not mean physical healing!) But we can trust Him to do all things well!

Grace777x70 · Apr 22, 2017

How we are to view all the people that are supposedly heretics to someone or to some group.

For example to those that believe in speaking in tongues and actually do pray in tongues on a daily basis to their Father - they have been called heretics by whole denominations because they don't agree with this doctrine.

There are websites dedicated to the heretic Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.S. Lewis, John McArthur, Paul Washer, Joseph Prince, Dr. Michael Brown, Justin Peters, Bill Johnson, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Andrew Wommack...etc..basically anyone who is known has a website dedicated to their "heresies".

There are even websites dedicated to the heretic apostle Paul because his epistles "conflict" with some of Jesus' words in some people's minds.

Basically these self-proclaimed heretic hunters have a beef about some thing with what someone else believes and so they are now "heretics" such as healing or speaking in tongues or water baptism done in what name.

Because they disagree with them - they feel that now they are free to slander them - call them names and create malice towards them.

Their motto is: "If people don't believe some scriptures in the way that "they do or our group" - they are heretics and they try to prove it with "their" version of what the scriptures say.." This is not what we were taught in "my" church or in our whole church tradition.

It's the nature of the beast. Martin Luther was a heretic to the catholic church at the time because for 1300 years prior to Luther they had always "believed" the same way.

Where these types cross the line is when they turn a disagreement that they have with someone doctrinally on a secondary issue such as healing ...etc and turn it into "So and so is a false teacher and they are in error and a heretic/satanist/controlled by a demon" type stuff.

joaniemarie · Apr 23, 2017

Angela53510 said:

Joanie Marie, do you understand what a heretic is? It is someone who disagrees, twists or misuses the Bible. Why is it important? Because it divides and leads people astray from the truth of who God is, what he came to do, and how we are to live in light of the Bible, which is Jesus' written words to us!

Grace777 loves to quote this nonsense about Martin Luther being a heretic because he stood against the Roman Catholic Church of the day. This is a half truth! The only truth is that the RCC did call him a heretic. Martin Luther, a doctor of the church and a priest, not only knew Greek, he knew it well enough to translate the Bible from Greek and Hebrew into German, a translation which is still used, although like the KJV in English, it does have obsolete words and grammar, and was translated well before the KJV.

The point being, Martin Luther, despite being a priest, a professor in seminary with a Ph.D, did not know God. Why? Because the false teachings (which is heresy) of the RCC were wrong, and he had no assurance of salvation! What changed all that was NEVER about breaking away from the traditions of the RCC. Luther was searching for the truth in the Scriptures, which he found in Romans 5:1. (Luther was not perfect, but he searched the Scriptures till he found the perfect truth!)

"Therefore since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1 ESV.

This is the doctrine of justification. Is it just a change in tradition?? NO!! This verse shows that we are not justified by works or indulgences, or any other additions. It also agrees with verses like Eph. 2:8-10. And because it was written in the first century, it shows that justification was not something new, some new revelation that Martin Luther dreamed up! No, justification was ALWAYS the only way God saved us!

So is it necessary to stand up to heresy? Well, some are chosen for that! The biblically illiterate, who are being led into heretical doctrine need to be shown, not from tradition, but from the Bible. Sometimes, that needs use of the Greek, especially when people like Joseph Prince, in your feeble devotionals you are for some reason allowed to post, JoanieMarie, have actual wrong translations of the Greek! Although trying to keep up with JP's volume of heretical writing is a bit more than I can do, most days.

I don't think healing and tongues are really included in this discussion of heresy. I know people that detest and hate this charimatic "nonsense." They say it is ended, which it may be. But although I agree with them, in part because I have seen so much dishonesty and irrational emotionalism, in my 15 years in Pentecostal/charismatic churches, no one has yet to prove to me scripturally it is over. Besides the fact, that tongues and healing is really not essential to the cross. It is not basic to Biblical Christian doctrine.

But when the Word Faith people pull verses like Isa. 53 out of context, using bad translations, and apply healing to the atonement, or the cross, then that is crossing the line into heresy.

Christianity is always about the cross! Jesus died for our sins, that is a central tenant of the church, really all Christian churches agree on this. And this is found over and over in the Bible. The atonement is for our sins. The sacrifice on the cross was the last and ultimate, the perfect sacrifice for sin!

Anything added to this Biblical description of the atonement, unless it is supported elsewhere in the Bible is heresy. Yet Word Faith preachers have added "healing" to the cross. On the basis of pulling Isa. 53:5d out of context, and misunderstanding the Hebrew. Since the translators of the Septuagint, the LXX or Greek version of the OT says in verse 4

"4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,and He carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities;
punishment for our peace was on Him,
and we are healed by His wounds.
6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished Him
for[ the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6 HCSB

Please note that verse 4 does not say "He himself bore our sickness." That is from the Hebrew. But the meaning is the same! Where in the OT does it ever say Israel was waiting for a Messiah to heal their bodies?? The promise, given in Gen. 3, was a Savior for sin! And all through the OT! The Bible is written to us, but good hermeneutics demands that we look at who the Bible was first written to. In the case of Isaiah, it was written to a sinful and disobedient generation! Was it ever written about a physically sick people needing healing? No! The prophecies were for a Messiah to heal them of their sin sickness! Not their physical sickness. That is a late 20th and 21st century heresy! The heresy being that verses are twisted to mean something they were never meant to mean! Sin sickness! Healed on the cross! That is what Isa. 53 is about, and why the Jews will not read it to this day in their synagogues.

There are two verses in the NT that quote Isa. 53:5d. Matt 8:17 does not even refer to the cross, but it does see the text as healing being fulfilled in Jesus' earthly ministry. His choice of Greek verbs makes this clear. The other quotation is in 1 Peter 2:24, and does NOT refer to physical healing, either! In a context in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters, even if it means suffering for it, Peter appeals to the example of Christ. The beginning of verse 21 is filled with allusions and citations to Isaiah 53 all of which refer to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. (The NT translation closely follows the Septuagint even when it differs from the Hebrew. Thus, "he himself bore our sins" rather than our sickness!)

"18 Household slaves, submit with all fear to your masters,not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.19 For it brings favor if, mindful of God’s will, someone endures grief from suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is there if you sin and are punished, and you endure it? But when you do what is good and suffer, if you endure it, this brings favor with God.21 For you were called to this,
because Christ also suffered for you,
leaving you an example,
so that you should follow in His steps.
22 He did not commit sin,
and no deceit was found in His mouth;
23 when He was reviled,
He did not revile in return;
when He was suffering,
He did not threaten
but entrusted Himself to the One who judges justly.
24 He Himself bore our sins
in His body on the tree,
so that, having died to sins,
we might live for righteousness;
you have been healed by His wounds.
25 For you were like sheep going astray,
but you have now returned
to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. 1 Peter 2:18-25.

Read this in context, and you will always find "healing from our sins" not sickness! Or put another way, Jesus came to heal us of our sin sickness.

Three basic verses to create a heresy. Three verses to change the entire meaning of the atonement. Three basic verses that have taken people's eyes off of the real meaning of the atonement, caused other people to change the basic means of words like "repentance" to something which makes it nothing to do with sin, which is the message of the Bible. Three basic verses that have been twisted into something which is totally against the center of our faith - Jesus coming to die for our sins, on the cross. Three basic verses that obligate God to heal on demand, which even if this 1/4 part of one verse really meant, good Hermeneutics or Bible Interpretation, requires a lot of verses, everywhere in the Bible to make a foundational doctrine out of it.

Sound Biblical theology means:

1. God must do nothing! God is free to be God. He is sovereign in all things and is simply not under our control.
2. Although God must do nothing, in grace he does all things! No healing is deserved, it is always an expression of God's grace. God does answer pray, because of his mercy and grace and loving kindness!

But, God does not HAVE to heal. Healing is therefore, not a divine obligation, not included in the atonement: It is a divine gift! And precisely because it is a gift, we can make no demands. (like quoting Isa. 53:d over and over when it does not mean physical healing!) But we can trust Him to do all things well!

Why would you think I'd take the time to read your insults Angela? What's the point? You disrespect me and my faith and have nothing positive to say. So I wish you and Stephen63 would put me on your ignore list. I have no time for your nonsense. Grace777 is much more tolerant of your rants and much to his credit he tries to work with you. I'm just not as kind and gracious as he is and have long ago lost interest in being insulted when I come here.

Angela53510 · Apr 23, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

So do you keep track of how many times you post the exact same thing?

Instead of reposting the same things I didn't agree with the first, the tenth or the 100th time you copy and pasted it, why do you not give a direct rebuttal to what I wrote?

Every time you post the same thing over and over, it really does give credence to the theory that you are nothing more than a bot, run by more than one person. Just set it up to key words, and out pops the same stuff that someone wrote, over and over.

But of course, you do not believe in objective truth. Since the RCC is totally heretical with regards to their soteriology, and Martin Luther called them on it on the basis of what the Bible said, who cares if the RCC, or the JW's or the Mormons call someone a heretic! It does not matter what someone with a bad or wrong interpretation of the Bible says. It doesn't matter if 10,000 or a million people said Martin Luther was a heretic! Because he was not! He was the first Reformer, changed the course of Christianity by preaching the truth. And the truth of what the Bible said, not what it didn't say!

When a JW says I am a heretic for believing in the deity of Christ, it is a lie! Because they are the ones who have literally mistranslated the Bible in their New World Transltion, to make it say what their heretical doctrines claim. Anyone who stands against them is NOT a heretic, if they base their doctrine on the Bible.

Seriously, Grace777, why bother posting if you have nothing new to say? It has nothing to do with slander, malice or any other name calling. It has to do with truth! And that truth is found in the Bible.

I think I adequately covered the issue of why tongues or healing is not a heresy. First, it is a side issue, and second, there is no place that I can find in the Bible that says they have ceased. I have seen people claim verses in 1 Cor. 13, about some gifts passing away, but it is in the context of seeing Jesus face to face, when the perfect comes. In other words, when Jesus returns. We are not there yet! Am I charismatic? Not at all, but I don't see Biblical grounds to say tongues or healing is over.

Heresy is when people twist basic doctrines, such as the divinity of Christ, salvation at the cross, the resurrection and other basics. If it is just a side issue people disagree on, it is not heresy! Or if they add to the atonement something that is not there, like healing is included in the atonement!

Please stop copying and pasting the same thing, and respond in your own words, to my post, or other people's posts. You have served zero purpose by reposting this for the 101th time!

Grace777x70 · Apr 23, 2017

I post the same truth as I see it when a topic comes up and if others have malice because of it - so be it. There are new members all the time and there are 10x times the amount of viewers looking at the threads so it is new to them.

I know some here will not accept anything other then their "right" to slander people that don't agree with them on a subject.

They feel it is their "right" to insult others and because of malice and bitterness attack everyone who has a different view. These are the types that try to "lord it over your faith" and call these people that Jesus bought with His blood insulting names.

People could just as easily call people "heretics" because they refuse to believe God's word on a subject. They would have every "right" to call people names and insult them because they refuse to believe the below scripture. But that is NOT a Christ-like characteristic.

Psalm 103:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;

The truth is that people are allowed to have a different opinion then what some others may have on these non-issues. For people to call others names - like "heresy" is ungodly behavior and it is indicative of our true maturity in the Lord.

True maturity in the Lord as 1 Peter 2:1-2 shows up in our behavior towards others and is what is indicative of growing up in the grace of our Lord. When we allow malice and bitterness to think that it is now our right to slander others - this is indicative of not growing up in the Lord.

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

We as Christians can be born-again for 50 years, pastor a church for 30 years, pray in tongues 5 hours a day, go to church every time the door is open, read in Greek and Hebrew, memorize 1/2 of the New Testament and still be a baby Christian.

( These are all good things within themselves but just not indicative of being mature in the Lord )

So, what do we do with these baby Christians that continue to exhibit this type of behavior no matter how many times they have been asked to stop?

We must limit our interaction with them as Hebrews 12:15 says - "see that no one falls short of the grace of God and a root of bitterness spring up and by it many are defiled".

We bless them and leave them in the Lord's hands. We pray for them - that they would be strong in the Lord. That the Father would grant unto them a spirit of revelation in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus.

In the meantime I encourage people to keep on encouraging people to believe God for all things in their life. He will be faithful to all of us and reveal His true nature in His love and grace of us. He is a good, good Father!

Grace777x70 · Apr 23, 2017

Here are my personal views of why I believe healing is in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Others can have a different view - I will not call them names and insult them saying they are "heretics". People can agree to disagree on things without having malice and then slandering them because of it. None of us know things as we know it.

My first reason is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Paul says - happy is he who doesn't condemn himself in what he believes. Let him have their own faith before God so people are allowed to have a different opinion on subjects such as healing.

Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father but the Son and He has come to reveal Him to men. Jesus came to do the will of the Father.

Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father as well as the will of the Father.

If we want to see what the Father's will is concerning a subject - see what Jesus did while He was on this earth.

If we want to see how the Father views sinners - look to see how Jesus interacted with them. ( both the prostitutes and the religious Pharisees )

If we want to see if it's God's will to heal people in their physical bodies - look to Jesus while He was here on this earth. He healed "all" that came to Him. He does not change in His nature and character.

If we want to see what the Father's discipline looks like - watch Jesus discipline the disciples - He did it with His words.

Jesus and the Father are One in their nature, purpose and love.

There is not one time - NOT one time where some one who came to Jesus for healing - that was not healed. He healed all that came to Him. There are many scriptures that attest to this fact.

No where do we find anywhere in Jesus' life where do we see any of these things being said by Jesus to anyone;

1) I can't heal you because God is trying to teach you something.

2) I can't heal you because you have sin in your life.

3) I can't heal you because you have not forgiven your mother-in-law. ( or anyone )

4) I can't heal you because you have not been eating and exercising properly. ( They were all on the Mediterranean Diet too...

)

5) I can't heal you because God wants you to suffer with this sickness so that you will learn to trust in Him.

None of these things ever occurred although we have been taught by some of our church teachings that they are true. There is no evidence in the life of Jesus - in fact - the evidence is the complete opposite of what we have been taught in some circles.

Everyone is free to have the faith that they have before God. I won't insult or de-mean nor try to "lord it over their faith" if they choose to believe something else.

I will not call them a "cult" because of their unbelief in God's word on the subject that is different from others nor will I say that they are now "in heresy". I expect others to act with the same respect towards others as well.

God bless you.

We have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe we haven't even scratched the surface of understanding what Christ has done for us on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and are raised to newness of life.

One day we will get incorruptible bodies where we will not be attacked. Thank you Jesus!

Grace777x70 · Apr 23, 2017

Some people have a different view of scripture on healing. If others think differently - then that is their opinion and their own choice and they are entitled to it.

Under the Old Covenant God said in Deut. that no diseases would be upon them if they followed the law of Moses. The writer of Hebrews says that we have New Covenant built upon better promises - that the blood of Jesus speaks of better things.

Is the Old Covenant really better now then the New one? Of course not.

Here is David speaking of healing.

Psalm 103:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;

Healing is definitely in the true gospel message.....as can be seen when Paul preached the gospel in Lystra. in Acts 14.

Acts 14:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] and there they continued to preach the gospel.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well,

[SUP]10 [/SUP] said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet." And he leaped up and began to walk.

Paul was preaching the GOSPEL.... the man lame was listening to Paul and then he had faith to be made whole...where did this man get faith to be made whole in his body?

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The man that was lame from birth heard in the preaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ that he could be made whole. He believed...Paul saw it in him and encouraged him to act on his faith.

Healing is a part of the gospel of the grace of Christ as the forgiveness of sins is.

Here Jesus relates healing to forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 9:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, and walk'?

[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—then He *said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

Rockrz · Apr 25, 2017

"In the Name of Jesus I baptize you in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

There, that'll cover it

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