Maybe this will make it easier since it is very simple and to the point. I challenge all those of the pre-trib persuasion to prove just ONE point, lets not go any further then this one point because it is the offspring of the entire pre-trib position. Here it is, Jesus in Matt 24 and Mark 13 described a time of tribulation, war, famine, disease, shakings, after which the heavens would be shaken and He would appear in the sky and send His angels to gather all those who believe in Him. Since this looks exactly like the rapture of the church....WHY IS IT NOT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH? Please, no theories as to why this should happen or that should happen, that is not scripture just human thought. Give me clear, in context, scripture, as to why such an obvious statement made by Jesus is not what it appears to be.
CHALLENGE
- Thread starter samuel23
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Thanks alot, Post.. :/ LOL
Well taking the scriptures you posted at point blank it certainly appears that the elect will only be raptured after the tribulation.
But as i asked in the tribulation is a lie thread what if his wrath and the tribulation are not entirely the same thing? if in fact this true and with the scripture you posted instead of a pre tribulation rapture a pre wrath rapture makes more sense after all we were promised we are not appointed to wrath but we were never promised to not face tribulation
But as i asked in the tribulation is a lie thread what if his wrath and the tribulation are not entirely the same thing? if in fact this true and with the scripture you posted instead of a pre tribulation rapture a pre wrath rapture makes more sense after all we were promised we are not appointed to wrath but we were never promised to not face tribulation
Well if i had a stance on the rapture the prewrath one sounds most logical but honestly i could care less about the timing of it I only focus on seeking to develop a deeper love and bond with God for God and for all others apart from that whatever happens happens. I am by no means afraid to go through the tribulation in fact I sought to be strong in love and in him specifically for the sake of all others and in the tribulation a time of utter blood and darkness his love and his light is going to be needed the most and so should he call me to walk in love and light during that time i will without hesitation do so regardless of the cost but at the same I also would absolutely love to go home.
The important thing is to have our hearts prepared and seeking love and seeking a much closer bond and connection with God is the best way to this. if your hearts eyes are focused solely on him than all other things will fall into place
The important thing is to have our hearts prepared and seeking love and seeking a much closer bond and connection with God is the best way to this. if your hearts eyes are focused solely on him than all other things will fall into place
[FONT="]Matt. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
We the Church are in Heaven so this sounds about right to me. What part of from the four corners of Heaven can't you understand?
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So the Church are in Heaven, Israel has Repented and are in the Wilderness and the Martyrs who were beheaded are in their graves. They all will need Gathering.
So the Former mentions only Heaven, where the Church or vast Majority of the elect will be. And Mark mentions Heaven and the EARTH where Israel is being protected and those killed during this great times of trouble. [/FONT]
Jesus came to minister only to the Lost sheep of Israel. So when he says Wheat is is referring to Israel who Repents just before the Abomination of Desolation, but after the Rapture. They (Israel) will grow with the TARES (Worldly people/Evil types) until the end and then will be harvested together.
BUT.....something God showed me a while back. No matter if the Church is Raptured pre...mid...or post (IT IS PRE), the Church does not remain on earth until the the end. We actually KNOW the Church is in Heaven (Rev. 19), then go back to earth with Jesus on White horses, where these evil TARES await us.
So the WHEAT is Israel ONLY and the TARES are the Wicked men not of the Church, who were Raptured.
So the Wheat and the Tares parable has nothing to do with the Church. If men would just quit trying to interchange the two they wouldn't get bogged down in all of these misunderstandings.
BUT.....something God showed me a while back. No matter if the Church is Raptured pre...mid...or post (IT IS PRE), the Church does not remain on earth until the the end. We actually KNOW the Church is in Heaven (Rev. 19), then go back to earth with Jesus on White horses, where these evil TARES await us.
So the WHEAT is Israel ONLY and the TARES are the Wicked men not of the Church, who were Raptured.
So the Wheat and the Tares parable has nothing to do with the Church. If men would just quit trying to interchange the two they wouldn't get bogged down in all of these misunderstandings.
One of the main beliefs in the Pre Trib argument is that Jesus returns after seven years with the Raptured saints which proves according to them that the Rapture happens before the tribulation. What they never mention is that there are millions of dead Christians already in heaven waiting for their resurrected bodies. According to Paul the dead rise first. In order for all these dead to receive their bodies they will need to return with Jesus to obtain them. Most people call this the second coming.
Do you have an appointment? If you go to a surgery or to speak with someone official chances are that some receptionist will ask this question.
One of the objections Pre Tribbers always trot out is that we are not appointed to wrath as a reason for the rapture.
The answer is yes we are not appointed to wrath but Revelation states in a number of places who are. They are UNBELIEVERS. If you are a believer the wrath of God wont affect you and you dont need to be whisked off for seven years to escape it. A number of the plagues that fall on unbelievers in Revelation are the same ones experienced by the Egyptians in Exodus.
The Israelites were not taken from the earth they remained in Goshem unharmed. They also had blood on their doorposts to protect them. Seeing that according to the Pre Trib theory the Jews will be protected on earth in the last days it doesn't need much to believe that Christians will be as well. There seems to be a fixation in pre tribbers minds that the only way that god can protect them is to whisk us all away.
One of the objections Pre Tribbers always trot out is that we are not appointed to wrath as a reason for the rapture.
The answer is yes we are not appointed to wrath but Revelation states in a number of places who are. They are UNBELIEVERS. If you are a believer the wrath of God wont affect you and you dont need to be whisked off for seven years to escape it. A number of the plagues that fall on unbelievers in Revelation are the same ones experienced by the Egyptians in Exodus.
The Israelites were not taken from the earth they remained in Goshem unharmed. They also had blood on their doorposts to protect them. Seeing that according to the Pre Trib theory the Jews will be protected on earth in the last days it doesn't need much to believe that Christians will be as well. There seems to be a fixation in pre tribbers minds that the only way that god can protect them is to whisk us all away.
Amen!!! Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..”
No one knows if there is a gap between "the sign" and "and they". The "sign" is not His physical coming, it's the answer to the second part of the three part question. "When will these things be (Temple), what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Luke adds more detail in 21:25-28 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Could that redemption be the gathering of the saints out of the world? Because it says "now when you see these things begin to take place" not after these things take place.
No one knows if there is a gap between "the sign" and "and they". The "sign" is not His physical coming, it's the answer to the second part of the three part question. "When will these things be (Temple), what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Luke adds more detail in 21:25-28 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Could that redemption be the gathering of the saints out of the world? Because it says "now when you see these things begin to take place" not after these things take place.