Virgin or young woman?

[JohnTalmid]

What's the truth about the Virgin birth? Was Marry a virgin or not? Does it matter? How do we get Virgin from "young woman", (Alma)?

There is only one way I can reason. Young woman as scripture states can only be revealed as a chaste woman on the virtu that it is u lawful to have sex before you are made one with the opposite sex. Torah would have been very clear. This is what arguments should be settled on, Torah (instruction).

 

[Spokenpassage]

Matthew carried the word into the Greek, or quoted from a translation, to mean 'virgin.'

It is vital that she was virgin for Christ to come into the world, otherwise his birth would be questionable, as well as his deity, etc.

The Scripture is clear on this, even from the narrative, that she did not know Joseph sexually.

 

[Chokmahiel]

Luke 1:34

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

 

[MattTooFor]

Torah would have been very clear. This is what arguments should be settled on, Torah (instruction).

You may have the wrong discussion board, perhaps? We believe in the whole Bible here (I would assume I speak for everyone?). And I sure hope the last name of your pseudonym (Talmid) isn't supposed to be a veiled reference to the Talmud. Ouch! That is the most grindingly hateful anti-Christian, anti-Jesus document one could possibly imagine! Time permitting, I certainly would be willing to whip out any number of its quotes. (Not tonight - too tired.)

 

[Locutus]

I think maybe it's both. – Forrest Gump.

 

[MattforJesus]

If one believes Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,God would not cause the conception of the child Christ Jesus in a woman that had sex with a man,for God is pure,and holy,like a person cannot receive the Spirit who has not had their sins washed away,for the Spirit is pure,and holy.

Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel out of the way,and we follow love God,and love people,and the moral laws,in the New Testament,so how can anybody support the Old Testament physical ordinances,and the physical laws,and believe the New Testament that states they have passed away,and loving people is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[trofimus]

What's the truth about the Virgin birth? Was Marry a virgin or not? Does it matter? How do we get Virgin from "young woman", (Alma)?

There is only one way I can reason. Young woman as scripture states can only be revealed as a chaste woman on the virtu that it is u lawful to have sex before you are made one with the opposite sex. Torah would have been very clear. This is what arguments should be settled on, Torah (instruction).

It is certainly a virgin. You can check it in the Septuagint.

Or you can just use a common sense. When Isaiah says that God will give us a sign - virgin will have a son, how would it be a sign if some young girl would have a son after a normal sexual intercourse?

Sometimes its just enough to check the context of the word before you dive into Jewish attempts to discredit Christianity.

 

[wolfwint]

What's the truth about the Virgin birth? Was Marry a virgin or not? Does it matter? How do we get Virgin from "young woman", (Alma)?

There is only one way I can reason. Young woman as scripture states can only be revealed as a chaste woman on the virtu that it is u lawful to have sex before you are made one with the opposite sex. Torah would have been very clear. This is what arguments should be settled on, Torah (instruction).

Many are trying to proof that Mary was no Virgin. But they cant. The truth is that Mary was a Virgin! Believe it ore not.

 

[JohnTalmid]

You may have the wrong discussion board, perhaps? We believe in the whole Bible here (I would assume I speak for everyone?). And I sure hope the last name of your pseudonym (Talmid) isn't supposed to be a veiled reference to the Talmud. Ouch! That is the most grindingly hateful anti-Christian, anti-Jesus document one could possibly imagine! Time permitting, I certainly would be willing to whip out any number of its quotes. (Not tonight - too tired.)

Talmidim means deciple... Then use Torah as proof text if you use the whole word. Please

 

[JohnTalmid]

I witness to Jews and must use Torah. I can provide proof text if y'all can't. Shalom

 

[PrynceNY]

Many are trying to proof that Mary was no Virgin. But they cant. The truth is that Mary was a Virgin! Believe it ore not.

They probably don't believe it judging by todays standards of virginity. Back in those times it was most likely more common and honored compared to now.

 

[JohnTalmid]

For all the antisemitism I'm going to get... I can prove using only Torah she was a virgin even though it doesn't say virgin.

 

[trofimus]

I can prove using only Torah...

You cant.

"The Torah It can most specifically mean the first five books (Pentateuch) of the twenty-four books of the Tanakh, and it usually includes the rabbinic commentaries (perushim). "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

a) If you can use only first 5 books of the Bible, there is nothing about this topic except of the prophecy to EVE.

b) If you can use only rabbinic commentaries and Scripture translations made by Jews, you cant do it too, they "fixed" everything in Scriptures to point to judaism.

If you want to prove something, you must go to a neutral source. Check the Septuagint, it was the ancient translation of the Scriptures made by Jews and used by all as authority (both Jews and Christians).
And there you can find the word "parthenos" - virgin.

Or you can use a common sense - Isaiah says it will be a sign.

 

[Chokmahiel]

Nothing wrong with reading and seeking wisdom from the Torah.

This is what the Torah says about virginity, a man sleeping with a virgin and a man claiming a woman is not a virgin and the claim being true or false:

Exodus 22:16-17

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.


Deuteronomy 22:13-21


[SUP]13 [/SUP]If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

So as we can see according to the Torah if a man sleeps with a virgin he must marry her or if her father refuses to let her be married then he must pay her father a dowry. If a man makes a false claim about his wife not being a virgin and she is found to be a virgin that man must be chastised by the elders and that man must pay a penalty in money to the virgin's father for speaking evil against a virgin. If the man's claim is found to be true and his wife be not a virgin then the woman must be put to death for playing the whore, which is fornication.

With that in mind, consider the episode of Joseph the husband of Mary and his thoughts about the matter before God intervened, particularly verse 19 which seems to indicate that Joseph was aware of the Torah's verses about such things, but because Joseph was a just man sought to simply put her away privately than to make her a public example.

Matthew 1:18-25


[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

 

[JaumeJ]

Alimah is the original Hebrew. It means damsel, maid or virgin. The first two conote a virgin also if you are familiar with language.

Now, is this an earnest post or simply a design to cast doubt in the weak of faith?

God , by His Holy Spirit, came upon the maid and made her with Child, His Child.

 

[trofimus]

Alimah is the original Hebrew. It means damsel, maid or virgin. The first two conote a virgin also if you are familiar with language.

Now, is this an earnest post or simply a design to cast doubt in the weak of faith?

God , by His Holy Spirit, came upon the maid and made her with Child, His Child.

What do you mean by original Hebrew? If you mean masoretic texts, they are from the middle ages. "Corrected" by many generations of Jews.

Septuagint is actually the most original text we have. Translation, but the source texts are already lost. We do not know what was in the original.

 

[JaumeJ]

Isaiah was written in Hebres as it was evoved at the time of its being written down.

All of the Word previous to any Greek contributions were in Hebrew except for the Book of Ezra and the first half of Daniel. which were penned in Aramaic.

I have been blessed to have read the Old Testament...Tanakh in the original Hebrew and Aramaic. There are the Masoratic Texts but these are not the only of the originals, pre- New Testament scriptures.

The KJV is originall a translation for the Masoratic texts....... If you would like to continue, go ahead.

 

[trofimus]

Isaiah was written in Hebres as it was evoved at the time of its being written down.

All of the Word previous to any Greek contributions were in Hebrew except for the Book of Ezra and the first half of Daniel. which were penned in Aramaic.

I have been blessed to have read the Old Testament...Tanakh in the original Hebrew and Aramaic. There are the Masoratic Texts but these are not the only of the originals, pre- New Testament scriptures.

The KJV is originall a translation for the Masoratic texts....... If you would like to continue, go ahead.

You must realize that you did not read the original Tanakh, but the middle ages Tanakh.

We do not have the original Hebrew texts.

But OK, even though the word "alma" was in the original Hebrew text, how do we know its meaning in those times? We can know it only from translations to other languges.
And because Jews themselves in the first century translated this word as "parthenos" (virgin), it is quite clear that the meaning "young girl" was not the primary one.

 

[JaumeJ]

I think you must realize that I have researched enough to know the original texts in Hebrew and in Aramaic were written with no separation of words or sentences.......No I have not read those.

Also, you must realize that the Masorah put down their compilation of the Tanakh with noteçatios and their own studeed elaborations.

I doubt seriously there are any "original" manuscripts available to man of the Tanakh, however they were faithfully copied and reproduced by scribes over the ages.

You must know when one makes reference to the original, it is not to the manuscripts but the reference is to the language (s) employed.

The bottom line to understanding al Hly Scripture is quite simple, for children and not linguists or intellectuals, and tha is learning the understanding of the Word of God from the Holy Spirit. Against such learning there is no disputing nor debate.

 

[trofimus]

Even though = even if, sorry for my English.