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Thread: The Rapture

  1. #201
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    VCO,



    Pot calling the kettle? All of the passages you cite prove my position and disprove yours. You think each of those passages are discussing the same, end of world event, don't you????? You are wrong. Read on, maybe you'll learn something.



    Did you read verse 2 or did you just skip ahead?

    2 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him

    This passage dealt with the destruction of Egypt. Now read verse 11:

    11 ‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you.

    This was Babylon destroying Egypt. Read some commentaries on this.



    The spirit mentioned here was poured out at Pentecost just as Peter declared. They were in the last days and Peter knew it and cited Joel 2. These "cosmic signs" often precede divine judgment and we know what happened to Jerusalem.



    These signs preceded the "presence" return of Christ in 70 AD as He executed judgment on the wicked of Jerusalem and spared His faithful. He used the Roman armies to carrying out His judgment just as God did to Israel 600 years earlier when He used Babylon to desolate Israel the first time. This fact is confirmed in Luke 19 and 21. Daniel 9 also confirms this and John the Baptist also warned of this coming wrath upon his people in Mat 3.



    Exactly. That's why Peter cited Joel. They were witnessing Joel's prophesy being fulfilled right then and there. They were in the last days of an age, the Mosaic age, and the last days of their nation, which would soon be desolated and they would cease to be a nation, judged to wander the nations scattered and homeless for 1900 years.


    You got it right.
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by followjesus View Post
    Jesus says this concerning the gathering of His people at His coming in the end....

    Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other."


    i highlighted four winds there, try looking into that phrase the four winds, and the four corners of the earth pertaining to that subject. Jesus is the One to look to concerning all things.


    Hello followJesus,

    Matt.24:29-31 is not about the gathering of the church. When the Lord sends out his angels to gather the elect from the "Four Winds, from one end of the heaven to the other" it is a phrase that refers to gathering from all over the entire earth. Also, those being gathered by the angels will be those great tribulation saints and Israel who make it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign, alive and in their mortal bodies. Regarding this phrase and its meaning, please consider the following:

    "Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The Lord Almighty is mustering an army for war. They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens—the Lord and the weapons of his wrath—to destroy the whole country.

    So, in the scripture above, the great multitude, which are all of the nations massing together, are said to be coming from faraway land,s from the ends of the heavens. The phrase is being used to refer to people coming from different places throughout the entire earth and not is not referring to people being gathered up into the air.

    "From the ends of the heavens" refers to armies being gathered from all over the earth. The same thing is being said here in Matt.24:31 where the angels go out and gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. That is, the angels will be going throughout the entire earth and gathering the elect. And again, those who will be gathered will be the living, not the dead in Christ.

    What is being described here in Matt.24:31 is synonymous with the parable of Matt.13:24-30, 36-43. Those elect who will be gathered is referring to "the wheat" who are gathered after "the weeds," which are living people.

    This is why it is important to understand that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to end the age. They are two separate events with Matt.24:31 referring to the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not describing the gathering of the church.

    One of the biggest problems that you have is that if Matt.24:29-31 was referring to the gathering of the church, that would mean that the church would have to go through the entire wrath of God, because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place prior to Matt.24:29-31.

    The church cannot go through God's wrath and that because it was already poured on Christ:

    "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

    "They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

    "But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrathbut to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    The church is not appointed to suffer any wrath, neither the wrath to come upon this earth nor the wrath of condemning judgment at the great white throne. Jesus experienced God's wrath for every believer, satisfying it completely. We have therefore been reconciled to God and have been credited with righteousness.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  3. #203
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean.

    Jesus began His ministry at the beginning of the 69th week, the Messiah, v 25, Yes?

    This is when He came to Israel?

    The next time will be "at His coming", 1 Cor 15:23-24

    yes/no?
    If your talking about the Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem on April 6, 32AD, I agree. YES

    However, concerning 1 Cor 15:23-24, it is Paul preaching to others about Jesus , his death and resurrection and Final coming in the future. Rem. It is all about context, context,m context..... 1 Cor 15:11.." Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. NO
    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Rapture?? I don't believe in a rapt....
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    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
    If your talking about the Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem on April 6, 32AD, I agree. YES

    However, concerning 1 Cor 15:23-24, it is Paul preaching to others about Jesus , his death and resurrection and Final coming in the future. Rem. It is all about context, context,m context..... 1 Cor 15:11.." Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. NO
    1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

    Jesus the first fruits, Jn 5:25, "Now is". OT saints.

    Those at His coming, Resurrection/rapture, "is coming", "all", Jn 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:13-18.

    Death destroyed, Rev 20:14:15

    The end when the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, wedding of Israel (wild and natural)

    Jesus submits to the Father.

    ---

    Only 2 resurrections are shown, can we take one away? or add more?
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  6. #206
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    Jesus Christ is Lord of ALL... that's why I read Him.

    Enjoy thy idols.

    It does not hurt anything when one uses other references when studying the Bible. (i.e THe Bible Mat. 24...tells us not one stone would be left un-turned.

    Josephus tells us the whole story of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

    Rem.. The little verse were it says "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:" Mat 24:32

    Well, the destruction of Jerusalem not only happened in 70 AD...A Generation of 38 years (same as in the wilderness) from 32 AD was prophesied. And yes it did happen in the summer... as Josephus put it, August and September.

    This not only verifies the Bible for those that scoff at it but also adds a little insight to it prophecies. Do you not think so.

    Of course there are many, many references out there, some good and some bad. That does not mean one has to treat them as idols.
    PlainWord and abcdef like this.
    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

  7. #207
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean.

    Jesus began His ministry at the beginning of the 69th week, the Messiah, v 25, Yes?

    This is when He came to Israel?

    The next time will be "at His coming", 1 Cor 15:23-24

    yes/no?
    No abcdef, the Messiah was cut off/crucified at the end of the 69th week of years.

    "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing"

    7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem

    62 sevens = The Messiah will be cut off

    7 sevens plus 62 sevens = 69 sevens = Christ crucified

    From that time forward, God put the last seven years on pause and began building the church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then God will hit the "continue button" and take up where He left off with Israel's program fulfilling the following:

    " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." - Dan.9:24
    Bladerunner likes this.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  8. #208
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

    Jesus the first fruits, Jn 5:25, "Now is". OT saints.

    Those at His coming, Resurrection/rapture, "is coming", "all", Jn 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:13-18.

    Death destroyed, Rev 20:14:15

    The end when the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, wedding of Israel (wild and natural)

    Jesus submits to the Father.

    ---

    Only 2 resurrections are shown, can we take one away? or add more?
    Paul is preaching to the Corinth Church.
    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post


    No abcdef, the Messiah was cut off/crucified at the end of the 69th week of years.

    "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing"

    7 sevens = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem

    62 sevens = The Messiah will be cut off

    7 sevens plus 62 sevens = 69 sevens = Christ crucified

    From that time forward, God put the last seven years on pause and began building the church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then God will hit the "continue button" and take up where He left off with Israel's program fulfilling the following:

    " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." - Dan.9:24

    Dan. 9:25, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks:"

    The Messiah COMES at the 69th week.

    Dan 9:26, AFTER that Jesus dies. 69 weeks 3 1/2 years.
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
    Paul is preaching to the Corinth Church.
    And.....There are only 2 resurrections.

    The wedding takes place After death is destroyed? yes/no?

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    And.....There are only 2 resurrections.

    The wedding takes place After death is destroyed? yes/no?
    "Hallelujah!For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns. Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, linen bright and pure.”

    The wedding of the Lamb takes place in heaven during God's wrath on the earth and prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As you can see from the scripture in Rev.19:6-8 the marriage and the wedding feast is taking place, then in Rev.19:11-21 Jesus descends from heaven and his bride (the armies in heaven) are seen following him out of heaven riding on those white horses and wearing the same fine linen, white and clean, that she (the bride) will have previously received at the wedding as found in Rev.19:6-8.
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    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  12. #212
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    Dan. 9:25, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks:"

    The Messiah COMES at the 69th week.

    Dan 9:26, AFTER that Jesus dies. 69 weeks 3 1/2 years.
    "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing"

    After Jesus died at the end of the 69 weeks of years, that last seven will be fulfilled in the future in conjunction with the end of the age.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    "Hallelujah!For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns. Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, linen bright and pure.”

    The wedding of the Lamb takes place in heaven during God's wrath on the earth and prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As you can see from the scripture in Rev.19:6-8 the marriage and the wedding feast is taking place, then in Rev.19:11-21 Jesus descends from heaven and his bride (the armies in heaven) are seen following him out of heaven riding on those white horses and wearing the same fine linen, white and clean, that she (the bride) will have previously received at the wedding as found in Rev.19:6-8.

    Rev 19 is a continuation of the prophecies concerning the defeat of the Roman Empire beast. It is only a prophecy of the wedding.

    The wedding can ONLY take place AFTER death is destroyed and the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, Rev 20:14-15.

    It doesn't say "out of heaven", it says that heaven was opened and they were seen, it does not say that they "return" to earth, that is an assumption.

    The sword is the Bible. It is a picture of the defeat of the Roman Empire (sea beast) by Christians, Jesus.

    See how there is a remnant, the earth beast, the image of the Empire, the Vatican. V 21

    ----

    You say that the wedding takes place exactly when?

    Over a 7 year time span?

    When is the complete kingdom delivered up to the Father? The beginning? the middle? the end?

    ---

    And what about the souls after the resur./rapt., that happened at the beginning of the 7 years?

    What covenant will they be under? If the covenant of the kingdom is ended?

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing"

    After Jesus died at the end of the 69 weeks of years, that last seven will be fulfilled in the future in conjunction with end of the age.
    V 25 says the the Messiah arrives at the beginning of the 69th week.

    But you have Jesus dying after 7 years of ministry.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    V 25 says the the Messiah arrives at the beginning of the 69th week.

    But you have Jesus dying after 7 years of ministry.
    7 sevens to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

    62 sevens Messiah is cut off, crucified

    7 sevens x 62 sevens = 69 sevens

    The last seven years will be fulfilled in conjunction with the end of the age seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Dan.9:27 is the description of that last seven years of which Jesus is not here during that future time. The seven years will be established when that ruler, the antichrist makes his covenant for one seven. In the middle of that seven is when the abomination is set up and 3 1/2 years later is when the Lord Returns to the earth to end the age. Jesus is not involved in the last seven years, for he will not be on the earth during that time.

    You have a very confused interpretation of scripture.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    7 sevens to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

    62 sevens Messiah is cut off, crucified

    7 sevens x 62 sevens = 69 sevens

    The last seven years will be fulfilled in conjunction with the end of the age seven years leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Dan.9:27 is the description of that last seven years of which Jesus is not here during that future time. The seven years will be established when that ruler, the antichrist makes his covenant for one seven. In the middle of that seven is when the abomination is set up and 3 1/2 years later is when the Lord Returns to the earth to end the age. Jesus is not involved in the last seven years, for he will not be on the earth during that time.

    You have a very confused interpretation of scripture.
    Many, many, assumptions on your part.

    The AoD is the reason that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad

    It was revealed at the dest. that Caesar was the Antichrist and Rome was the 4th beast/iron legs.

    The end of the age was the end of the temple age.

    Jesus returned with clouds of armies and destroyed Jerusalem.

    ---

    The Antichrist was revealed as Caesar, in 70 ad. (Vatican)

    But you are in denial that Rome is the beast.

    Every time that you say that the Antichrist is not revealed,

    You deny that Caesar/the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist, you're helping to hide him.

    He's been here all this time.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    It seems to me the main debate is whether or not, "The End of the Age" happened in 70 AD in reference to Israel's destruction or if it is a future world-wide "end of the world." We also see the phrase, "last days" bantered about. Same thing, were the disciples living in the "last days (of their nation)" or are the "last days" future? Solve this question and it resolves so many things.

    It is my contention (and a-f and others) that the "end of the age" and "last days" were discussing the end of Israel as a nation in 70 AD. They were in their "last days," their "age was coming to an end." Let's look at the uses of these two phrases:

    Heb 1: God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds..."

    Is there any doubt the "last days" spoken in the above were in the days of Jesus? Who thinks not?

    2 Tim 3: But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

    In the above Paul is telling Timothy to turn away from such people that will come in "their last days." Paul is discussing the religious leaders, zealots and tyrants that ruled Jerusalem in their last days.

    Acts 2: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

    In the above Peter cites Joel 2. Peter clearly was telling his audience that Joel's prophesy of their last days was coming true right then and now.

    James, writing to the 12 tribes which were scattered abroad says this:

    James 5: Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth (Hosts).

    James is exactly describing the ruling class of Jerusalem. The tyrants, John and Simon, along with their bands of robbers, robbed the people blind of their money and food. They lived fat and happy while the people starved to death (3rd seal). They were unable to take their treasure out of the city when the Romans broke through and they were caught. These tyrants and their robbers fought each other and slaughtered the people while Rome lay outside building their siege wall. Hundreds of thousands died of starvation while these evil men prospered. They killed all who tried to escape. They thought God was on their side, they took over the Temple, murdered the priests and appointed their own priests. They drank wine from the sacred cups and stole the temple's treasures.

    Mat 13" Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

    It was the end of their age. The tares were the wicked Jews all of whom came into the city from the surrounding cities for the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Once inside they became trapped. The righteous Jews, which "grew up alongside them" were rescued and told when to flee. "therefore when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..." "Let those in Judea flee to the mountains."

    Mat 28: teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

    Christ was with THEM, to the end of the age. "You" meant those He was speaking to.

    1 Cor 10: Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    Paul is clearly placing the "end of the ages" in his generation.

    Heb 9: He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

    Here Christ is placed at the end of the ages at the time of the Cross.

    That's right ALL OF THESE passages which so many think deal with the end of the world, instead dealt with the end of THEIR age, the end of the Mosaic Age, end of Israel and their world as they knew it.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, saying that the victory did not come through his own efforts but that he had merely served as an instrument of God's wrath.

    The Jewish Amoraim attributed the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem as punishment from God for the "baseless hatred" that pervaded Jewish society at the time. Many Jews in despair are thought to have abandoned Judaism for some version of paganism, many others sided with the growing Christian sect within Judaism.

    The destruction was an important point in the separation of Christianity from its Jewish roots: many Christians responded by distancing themselves from the rest of Judaism, as reflected in the Gospels which some believe portray Jesus as anti-Temple and view the destruction of the temple as punishment for rejection of Jesus.

  19. #219


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    Default Re: The Rapture

    These are the Theologians that I respect, and will eagerly learn from; and YES, I absolutely believe in interpreting the Bible the Bereans way:


    Acts 17:11 (NIV)
    11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


    Comentaries on 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
    4:16 the Lord Himself will descend. This fulfills the pledge of John 14:1-3 (cf. Acts 1:11). Until then, Jesus remains in heaven (cf. 1:10; Heb. 1:1-3). archangel. Very little is known about the organization or rank of angels (cf. Col. 1:17). While only Michael is named as an archangel (Jude 9), there seems to be more than one in the archangelic ranks (Dan. 10:13). Perhaps it is Michael, the archangel, whose voice is heard as he is identified with Israel’s resurrection in Daniel 12:1-3. At that moment (cf. 1 Cor. 15:52, “twinkling of an eye”), the dead rise first. They will not miss the rapture, but be the first participants. trumpet of God. Cf. 1 Corinthians 15:52. This trumpet is not the judgment trumpets of Revelation 8-11, but is illustrated by the trumpet of Exodus 19:16-19, which called the people out of the camp to meet God. It will be a trumpet of deliverance (cf. Zeph. 1:16; Zech. 9:14). 4:17 caught up. After the dead come forth, their spirits, already with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23), are now being joined to resurrected new bodies (see notes on 1 Cor. 15:35-50); the living Christians will be raptured, literally snatched away (cf. John 10:28; Acts 8:39). This passage, along with John 14:1-3 and 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52, forms the biblical basis for the Rapture of the church. The time of the Rapture cannot be conclusively determined from this passage alone. However, when other texts such as Revelation 3:10 and John 14:3 are consulted and compared to the texts about Christ’s coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34-50; 24:29-44; Rev. 19:11-21) at the end of a seven year Tribulation, it has to be noted that there is a clear difference between the character of the Rapture in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts feature judgment. So then, it is best to understand that the Rapture occurs at a time different from the coming of Christ in judgment. Thus, the Rapture has been described as pre-Tribulational (before the wrath of God unfolded in the judgments of Rev. 6-19). This event includes complete transformation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; Phil 3:20, 21) and union with the Lord Jesus Christ that never ends.


    The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

    4:16 The exact order of events at Christ's coming for His saints is now given. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven. He will not send an angel, but will come Himself!
    It will be with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Several explanations have been offered as to the significance of these commanding sounds, but frankly it is almost impossible to speak with finality about them:
    1. Some feel that the shout is the voice of the Lord Jesus Himself which raises the dead (John 5:25; 11:43, 44) and changes the living. Others, like Hogg and Vine, say that the shout is the archangel's voice.
    2. The voice of Michael, the archangel, is commonly understood as an assembling command for the OT saints, since he is so closely associated with Israel (Dan. 12:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:4-7). Others think its purpose is to revive Israel nationally. And still others suggest the voice of an archangel summons the angels as a military escort to accompany the Lord and His saints through enemy territory back to heaven (cf. Luke 16:22).
    3. The trumpet of God is the same as the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, which has to do with the resurrection of believers at the time of the Rapture. It calls the saints to eternal blessing. It is not to be confused with the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15-18, which signals the final outpouring of judgment on the world during the Tribulation. The last trumpet here is the last for the church. The seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last for the unbelieving world (though it is never specifically called the "last trumpet").
    The bodies of the dead in Christ will rise first. Whether this includes the OT saints is debatable. Those who think it does point out that the archangel's voice is heard at this time, and that he is closely linked with the destinies of Israel (Dan. 12:1). Those who think that the OT saints will not be raised at the Rapture remind us that the phrase in Christ (the dead in Christ) is never applied to believers who lived before the Church Age; these believers will probably be raised at the end of the Tribulation (Dan. 12:2). In any case it is clear that this is definitely not a general resurrection. Not all the dead are raised at this time, but only the dead in Christ.
    4:17 Then the living shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The word Rapture, which we use to describe this first phase of the Lord's return, is derived from the verb used here in the Latin Bible meaning caught up. A "rapture" is a snatching away or a catching up. It is used of Philip in Acts 8:39, of Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4, and of the male Child in Revelation 12:5.
    The air is Satan's sphere (Eph. 2:2), so this is a triumphal gathering in open defiance of the devil right in his own stronghold.
    Think of all that is included in these verses! The earth and the sea yielding up the dust of all the dead in Christ. Then the transforming miracle by which this dust is formed into glorified bodies, free forever from sickness, pain, and death. Then the space-flight to heaven. And all of this taking place in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52).
    Men of the world have difficulty believing the account of the creation of man in Genesis 1 and 2. If they have difficulty with creation, what will they do with the Rapture—when God will recreate millions of people from the dust that has been buried, scattered, strewn, or swept up on the beaches of the world?
    Men of the world are enthusiastic about space travel. But can their greatest exploits compare with the wonder of traveling to heaven in a split second without taking our own atmosphere with us, as the space men have to do when they go on short hops to outer space?
    In connection with Christ's coming there is a sound to hear, a sight to see, a miracle to feel, a meeting to enjoy, and a comfort to experience.
    It is also good to notice the recurrence of the word Lord in these verses: the word of the Lord (v. 15), the coming of the Lord (v. 15), the Lord Himself (v. 16), to meet the Lord (v. 17), to always be with the Lord (v. 17).
    Forever with the Lord! Who can tell all the joy and blessedness that is included in these words?


    Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

    B. The Rapture (4:16-18)
    4:16. Jesus Christ now sits at the right hand of God in heaven (Rom. 8:34; Eph. 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3). He will leave this position and descend to the earth. By the words the Lord Himself Paul emphasized that it would be the same Jesus who had ascended through the clouds (cf. Acts 1:11). The sounds mentioned in this verse—a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God—are difficult to interpret. Who will voice the loud shout? Will it be Jesus Himself (cf. John 11:43), or the archangel Michael (Dan. 10:13; Jude 9), or another angel? Is this a literal trumpet call, or was Paul speaking figuratively in describing the call of God by which He will announce the Advent of His Son? (cf. 1 Cor. 15:52) These three phenomena may all refer to the same thing, but probably they are three separate almost simultaneous announcements heralding Christ's return. Though one's curiosity about these aspects of the Rapture is not fully satisfied in this passage, one thing is clear: Christ's return for His saints will be announced from heaven forcefully and dramatically.
    Then the dead in Christ will be resurrected, that is, believers of this dispensation will be raised. Old Testament saints will evidently be raised at the end of the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:2), for the phrase "in Christ" refers exclusively to Church-Age saints. The bodies of the dead in Christ will rise before the living Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).
    How will God raise the bodies of people who were buried hundreds of years ago? What about the bodies of those Christians who were burned to death and those whose ashes were thrown to the wind, and Christians who perished at sea? The resurrection of the dead poses a great problem to the faith of many. Perhaps that is why Paul stressed that this revelation came from Jesus Christ Himself and that it is as certain of future fulfillment as Jesus' resurrection is a fact of past history. The God who created the universe out of nothing with a word is fully able to reassemble the decayed bodies of all His saints in a moment of time (cf. 1 Cor. 15:35-58).
    4:17. Whereas the previous verse explains the future of dead saints at Christ's return, this one deals with what will happen to living believers (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51-52). After the bodies of dead Christians have been raised, those who are still alive and have been left behind momentarily will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Again Paul, by using the word we ("we who are still alive and are left"; cf. 1 Thes. 4:15), put himself in the living group; he thought that Christ would probably return in his lifetime, or at least he allowed for its possibility. Only a moment will separate the resurrection of the dead and the translation of the living (1 Cor. 15:51-52). In Latin the word for "caught up" is rapturo, from which comes the term "Rapture." This is the Rapture of the church, when Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the clouds (cf. Acts 1:9). The events described here and in the parallel passage, 1 Corinthians 15, differ considerably from those that will accompany Christ's return to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom (Rev. 19:11-21). This difference substantiates the distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
    The resurrected or translated bodies of all Christians will be united with Christ and with each other at the Rapture. From that time on and forever thereafter they will be with the Lord. The Lord will take living believers to the place He is presently preparing for them (John 14:2-3). But the place where Christians will be was not so important to Paul as the Person with whom they will be. "The entire content and worth of heaven, the entire blessedness of life eternal, is for Paul embraced in the one thought of being united with Jesus, his Savior and Lord" (Borhemann, quoted by George G. Findlay, The Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians, Cambridge: University Press, 1904, p. 103).



    The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.


    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first [1Thess. 4:16].


    "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven." I love that -- He won't be sending angels. . . . When the Lord takes His church out of the world, the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven. There will be no angels. Angels are connected with Israel but not with the church at all.

    He will descend from heaven "with a shout." That is the voice of command. It is the same voice which He used when He stood at the tomb of Lazarus and said, "Lazarus, come forth" (see John 11:43).
    "The voice of the archangel." Now wait, isn't that an angel connected with the Rapture? No, it is His voice that will be like the voice of an archangel. It is the quality of His voice, the majesty and the authority of it.
    "The trump of God." Will there be trumpets there? No, it is His voice that will be like a trumpet. Can we be sure of this? In Revelation 1:10, John, who was exiled to the Isle of Patmos, wrote, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." He turned to see who it was, and he saw the glorified Christ. It is the voice of the glorified Christ that is like the sound of a trumpet.
    That ought to get rid of all this foolishness about Gabriel blowing his horn or blowing a trumpet. I don't think Gabriel even owns a trumpet, but if he has one, he won't need to blow it. The Lord Jesus is not going to need the help of Gabriel. Do you think the Lord Jesus needed Gabriel to come and help Him raise Lazarus from the dead? Can you imagine the Lord Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus saying, "Gabriel, won't you come over here and help Me get this man out of the grave?" How absolutely foolish! The Lord Jesus will not need anyone to help Him. When He calls His church, their bodies will come up out of the graves.
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord [1Thess. 4:17].

    Again, "caught up" is the Greek harpazo, meaning "to grasp hastily, snatch up, to lift, transport, or rapture."
    It is going to be a very orderly procedure. The dead will rise first. Here comes Stephen out of the grave. It may be that he will lead the procession since he was the first martyr. Then there will be the apostles and all those millions who have laid down their lives for Jesus. They will just keep coming from right down through the centuries. Finally, if we are alive at that time, we will bring up the rear of the parade. We will be way down at the tail end of it. Most of the church has already gone in through the doorway of death.

    Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

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  20. #220


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    Default Re: The Rapture

    ARE YOU READY?






    I BELIEVE IN KEEPING READY!

    Mid-Trib and Post-Trib seem to believe they have time to get ready later.


    Speed of the Rapture:


    Matthew 24:27 (HCSB)
    27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (NASB)
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet {Wedding Shofar Trumpet}; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
    53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.





    Speed of the Second Coming:

    Revelation 19:17-19 (HCSB)
    17
    Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
    18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”

    19 Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.

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