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Thread: The Rapture

  1. #341
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Here is something for you to consider abcdef: how can Jesus return at the 7th trumpet, when at the pouring out of the 6th bowl, which takes place well after the 7th trumpet He interjects that he has not yet returned:
    Because the Revelation is not one continual time line, it is a broken time line, showing the same events from different perspectives.

    Mainly the time from Israel's rejection of the Pentecost Kingdom, until Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom and the end of the planet, and eternity.

    ====================================

    "The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

    They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

    “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

    Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
    =====================================

    Jesus' insertion above would demonstrate that at the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment, Jesus has not yet returned, yet you have Him returning at the 7th trumpet, which seven events prior to when the 6th bowl takes place?
    The 6th trumpet, and the 6th vial, are the same time.

    The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial are the same.

    Both are the end of this planet.



    Why do you believe that the 200 million are men? The 6th bowl judgment where a third of mankind is killed, is performed by those four angels and their army. It is angels killing a third of mankind, not mankind killing mankind.
    Rev 7:1-3, v 1, See that the 4 angels (spirits), are holding back the winds that hurt the trees and grass, (the trees and grass are symbolic of the people of Israel)

    v 2, The angel with the seal of God tells the 4 angels what to do, so the 4 angels are getting their orders from God which makes them good spirits that are holding back the winds of harm, destruction (towards Israel).

    The angel is "rising" in the east, because the power of the winds is increasing and more power is required to hold the winds back.


    v 3, The timing of the release. The 6th trumpet, the 4 winds (spirits) of destruction are released and head towards Israel and Jerusalem.


    The reason that trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are called "woes" is because each of them are demonic in nature.

    5th Trumpet = Demonic beings resembling locusts come out of the Abyss and torment the inhabitants
    The Spirits described are in the flesh of men. The description is about the spirits of the men.

    The Satan dragon beast, that comes out of the abyss, the place of the dead, is Rome.


    6th Trumpet = Four angels and their army of 200 million demonic beings kill a third of mankind
    The army is not, the army of the angels, it is the army of the 4 winds, come to hurt the trees and grass (Israel).

    The good angels (spirits) were holding back the winds.

    The description of the army is of the spirits of the men, who teach hate towards Israel.

    The symbolism of the 1/3 is that Israel will not be complete.

    The repentance called for is for Israel to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

    Mankind is Israel, not the planet of gentile nations.


    7th Trumpet = Satan and his angels cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth
    The time line ends at the end of the 7th trumpet.

    The subject then changes to describing the beast that kills the 2Ws. The dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns, Rome.

    It is not one time line.

    Satan being cast down is the Day of Pentecost.

    How did you interpret 1260 days and turn it into 3 1/2 days? The 1260 days which is the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, will be the time when the two witnesses prophesy, i.e. from the beginning of the seven years, to the middle.
    Their bodies lie will lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days.
    The 3 1/2 times are not literal years. They are only described that way symbolically.

    The 7 times are the same as the statue in Dan. 2.

    First 3 1/2ts, Babylon until 70 ad,

    Second 3 1/2ts 70 ad to 1967. (great trib, ToGs)


    The Rock cut out of the mountain without human hands, is figurative representing Jesus.
    Symbolic of Jesus, yes.

    It shows Jesus taking possession of the kingdom. (not Pentecost, that happened BEFORE the legs divide).

    Then the judgement.

    Then eternity on the new earth, Fills the earth, Jesus becomes the new earth, is the new living earth.


    He's the Rock that falls on the feet of the statue causing it to be smashed to pieces and that via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
    Your assumption.

    If the statue ends and the chaff is blown away, how can Magog rebel?

    Then there would still be chaff left to rebel?

    An army of Magog chaff.


    Jesus is that Rock that strikes the feet of the statue becoming a huge mountain that fills the whole earth,
    When it fills the earth, it means that there is no place left for the old earth, Yes?


    which is figurative representing his millennial kingdom.
    The mill kingdom is the church age. Ending with the resur/rapt and the fire from heaven.



    It has nothing to do with an asteroid or any other object hitting the earth.
    What is your evaluation of the fire from heaven? The last thing that takes place on this planet?

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    One more Time, you have bought just about every mis-interpretation of Prophecy Scriptures that I have ever heard of. How on earth did you get so mixed up, swallowing so many FALSE TEACHINGS, hook, line, and sinker.
    Is Rome the iron legs nation, that lasts until the stone strikes?


    FIRST OF ALL, the CHURCH IS NOT Spiritual ISRAEL, never has been, and NEVER WILL BE. ISRAEL IS GOD's CHOSEN People, and We are HIS chose sons; a totally different relationship;
    Israel is wild and natural branches.

    You say No?


    EXCEPT:

    John 10:16 (HCSB)
    16 But I have other sheep that are not of this fold;
    I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice.

    The other sheep are those of the GAP.


    There is no gap

    And when they are all in their FOLD.

    Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
    Then at the RAPTURE the two folds, become one FLOCK.


    They are one flock now. Wild and natural, all are Israel.


    There as many FALSE TEACHERS on the Protestant side of the fence, and there are Priests who are False Teachers, maybe there are more Protestant false teachers. The Seven Churche are real Churches that Christ recognized. AND they are representitive of the types of Chruches that can be found throughout the Church Age. CHRIST RECOGNIZED all seven, WHO ARE YOU TO RECOGNIZE LESS. The Catholic Church certainly is one the SEVEN CHURCHES RECOGNIZED BY CHRIST AS ONE OF HIS.


    The 7 churches are congregations in the Revelation , not denominations.

    I guess that you would say that all 7 churches were Roman Catholic, Yes?

    Unless you acknowledge the Bishop of Rome as the holy father, and the only path to salvation, you are not a Christian, Yes?

    You are not saved unless you are Roman Catholic, Yes/No?
    --
    Who are the other 6?

    Lutherans? Greek Orthodox? Episcopal? Church of England? Methodist? Mennonite?

    Sorry, Baptist, Assembly of God, community Churches, everybody else, your are not included?

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    a-f,



    Here's my take...

    What happens is an Islamic force lead by Russia will invade and surround Jerusalem once again.


    Russia Magog gentile nations are led by Iran. (present situation)


    God divinely intervenes as told in Ez 38-39 and Rev 20.
    Ezek 38 &39 is history,

    Rev 20 is the LAST scene on planet earth.



    I'm not sure either of us understands the meaning of the 6th trumpet. I think you may be wrong that this is an evil army of 200 mil coming to destroy Israel. This army kills 1/3 of mankind. There isn't that many people in Israel. I've always seen this army as a divine army. They kill with fire, smoke and brimstone which are well-known "divine judgment" methods of destruction. There were 4 angels being held back. Where they good or bad angels? Notice also that the rest of mankind (not killed) did not repent. This seems to point to a divine judgment event.


    We are in a spiritual war of salvation, fought with principles and truths, these are false teachers hiding and fighting the truths that lead to salvation.


    Not sure I agree with this. I don't see the 2 witnesses as 2 literal men killed in Jerusalem. No man I know of breaths out fire to kill their enemies unless they are supernatural. If they are, then they can't be killed. Their "dead bodies" lie in the "great city" spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.
    The 2Ws are the people the natural branches of Israel restored to Jerusalem.


    Rev 11 is loaded with symbolism. The inspiration here seems to come from Jer 5:14 and Zec 4. The reference to Sodom is a reference to wickedness (See Isa 3:9, Jer 23:14). It's a Satan inspired spiritual condition of man. Today I would relate it to "Progressive Liberalism." "Egypt" conjures up a different spiritual image to me, one of idol (or false) worship and slavery, and of greed or desire for wealth. Islam, perhaps?
    The beast is Rome.

    The army from the Euphrates is Islamic, Israel haters.


    The "witnesses" are obviously good, the spirits that kill them are bad. I see the two witnesses as the Great Multitude in Heaven, from Rev 7. Rev 7 says they came from: "...all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues." In Rev 11 we see that those who celebrate their death are: "...from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations." Therefore the unsaved of the earth will kill the saved of the earth in huge numbers before the 7th trumpet. In other words, the persecution of the church globally worsens and we are seeing that now.

    It's all about Israel, wild and NATURAL branches.




    I don't know. The "stone" of Dan 2 I've always taken to be Christ and by extension, the Church. Christianity overcomes the pagan religions supported by the kingdoms of this earth. Christianity fills the earth and indeed the largest faith on earth today is Christianity. Dan 2 is like the mustard seed parable, IMHO.


    The stone is not the kingdom. The kingdom starts before the first division of the statue, the kingdom causes the division of the legs. (234 ad)

    The stone destroys the statue, when Jesus takes possession of the kingdom.


    I don't know about this...


    Think about it.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by serpentdove View Post
    I'm pre-trib. Tomorrow (roughly) starts the tail drag by the dragon in the sky which John wrote about in Re 12.
    There goes my weekend!
    PlainWord and abcdef like this.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Russia Magog gentile nations are led by Iran. (present situation)
    Yup.

    Ezek 38 &39 is history


    Please explain. When did the armies of Persia, Ethiopia and Libya invade Israel whereby God caused them confusion so that they attacked each other? Keep in mind also that God rained down on them with hail stones, fire and brimstone. I would like to read on on this past event, thanks.

    Rev 20 is the LAST scene on planet earth.


    If you are talking Rev 20:7-15, I agree with you.


    We are in a spiritual war of salvation, fought with principles and truths, these are false teachers hiding and fighting the truths that lead to salvation.


    Can you be more specific? What nations make up the 1/3 killed? I have a theory on it.

    The 2Ws are the people the natural branches of Israel restored to Jerusalem.
    Speculation? Do you have another passage confirming this?

    The beast is Rome.
    The 4th beast of Daniel was Rome. That's pretty much it for Rome. Daniel tells us what happened to Rome: "I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame." Rome is gone as a world empire and is not going to return. Kind of hard to return once destroyed and burned up.

    The army from the Euphrates is Islamic, Israel haters.

    I used to think that too, but no longer. I believe the 200 mil strong army are angels and that the 1/3 of the world they kill are Islamic.

    It's all about Israel, wild and NATURAL branches.
    Well, that describes all who are born again.

    The stone is not the kingdom. The kingdom starts before the first division of the statue, the kingdom causes the division of the legs. (234 ad)

    The stone destroys the statue, when Jesus takes possession of the kingdom.


    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

    Think about it.


    I have. It would take too long to respond here.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Brother Ahwatukee,

    [QUOTE=Ahwatukee;3098309]

    If I may jump in here just to clarify something: In the scripture the symbolism is the heads and the literal is what the angel reveals that the symbolism represents. Therefore the angel states that the seven heads (symbolism) represent seven hills (literal). According to what you are claiming regarding the seven heads would be symbolic of seven hills which would be symbolic again representing nations or kingdoms. So your claim would be Symbolism = symbolism = literal
    Seven Heads = Seven literal hills upon which the woman sits
    This can only be Rome, Because it is the iron legs/toes, and the 4th beast of Dan. 2.


    Seven Heads = They also represent a succession of seven kings, six of them ruling during John's time
    5 have fallen, one is, and one yet to come, 7

    But there is another, an 8th head.


    and the seventh being future from the time that John's received this information.
    How long does this king rule, the 7th head? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? where did he go? When did the 7th head rule, and how long?

    These heads are not kingdoms, they are all part of the iron legs, 4th beast, Rome, all are Rome.


    The eighth king, who belongs to the seven,
    Roman also. His reign (earth beast), begins after the 7th head dies. (sea beast)


    is that beast who comes up from the Abyss,
    The iron beast nation is Rome, so the dragon iron beast nation the comes out of the abyss, place of the dead, MUST be Rome (one of the seven)

    and who is still future
    The 8th head has been here since the 7th head died, Roman Empire died.

    His coming out of the abyss WAS FUTURE, until 1929. Now he is here, the Roman Empire renewed, came out of the abyss, the iron beast nation.

    If the iron legs are Rome, and the Roman Empire has fallen, who then is the iron at present?

    Remember that the iron legs/toes are one solid piece, one unbroken beast nation until the stone strikes.


    and is one of the heads/kings who receives the fatal wound and yet lives.
    The sea beast is the Roman Empire, the earth beast is the religious image of the Empire. The commonality is Caesar worship, man is god, worship the creation.




    Ten Horns
    = Ten who become kings in a short period of time and who will rule concurrently with the beast and who will give all of their power to the beast.
    the number 10 is symbolic of complete division. When the Roman Empire fell it divided into many nations.



    The Woman
    = The woman you saw is that great city who rules over the kings of the earth.
    Rev is post dest, after 70 ad.

    Jerusalem was completely gone.

    Rome iron beast ruled over the kings of the earth (Israel).

    The theme is symbolic representing the literal.
    I agree totally.

  7. #347


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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    Because the Revelation is not one continual time line, it is a broken time line, showing the same events from different perspectives.

    Okay, Now I see a major confusion on your part. John liked the writing style that most Newspaper reporters use. I forget what that is called, but someone who has studied Journalism, can tell you what the name of the style of writing is. It is where you open with a broad overview, to grab their attention, and then you go back and fill in details, and go back and fill in more details, and if necessary, you go back and fill in even more details; until you have filled in all the details. That is why you think it is a broken timeline, because he did not totally use a Chronological timeline.

    May I ask you to be honest with us and tell us your denominational affilliation, and the Bible Teachers you have been listening to; and if you went to Bible College, what school?


    I attend a Non-denominational, conservative evangelical style of Church.

    I have not been to Bible College, but here are the Bible Teachers who have all had a part in discipling me:

    The Bible teachers that have had the most influence on my spiritual growth are:

    Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - http://www.gty.org/ sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
    Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
    Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
    Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
    Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
    Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
    Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
    Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
    Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audi...martin_walter/
    Dr. Ben Haden - Why
    Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -
    Dr. Dave Hunt -
    Eliezer Urbach, associated with Jews for Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publicat...ctober-2009/09

    As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry and Pastor Gordan Broadbent especially.
    Last edited by VCO; May 19th, 2017 at 08:19 PM.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Christ returned in 70 AD. If He didn't return in that generation, then He was a liar and we cannot have faith in Him. If we can introduce 2,000 year gaps any place we want, then none of the time lengths in the Bible have any true meaning. The 6 day creation can be 6,000 years. We can't rely on 3.5 days in the ground, it could have been 3.5 years, etc.

    Here are some of the passages which He fulfilled in 70 AD.



    • Matt. 10:23--When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
    • Matt. 16:27-28-- 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
    • Matt. 24:29-34--29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
    • Acts 3:19--Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophecies were fulfilled. If the Old Prophesies have not been fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. (Matthew 5:17-18)
    • Romans 13:11--And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
    • 1 Cor. 7:28-31--But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.
    • Hebrews 9:26-28--He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
    • Heb 10:37--“For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
    • James 5:7-9--Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
    • 1 John 2:15-18--Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
    • Revelation--this book says no less than ten times that its predictions "must shortly come to pass," were "at hand," were to happen "quickly," there would be "no more delay," etc., etc.


    It was the Jewish world passing away which happened in 70 AD. "Near," "time is short", "at the door," etc. are meaningless words if it would really be 2,000 years. Christ came, His light was seen in the Temple for 1/2 hour. His army was seen in the sky above. His presence returned and He delivered wrath against that wicked and adulterous generation.

    Now, He will come again, at the end of time.
    Last edited by PlainWord; May 19th, 2017 at 08:46 PM.
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  9. #349
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    [QUOTE=PlainWord;3101675]Yup.



    Please explain. When did the armies of Persia, Ethiopia and Libya invade Israel whereby God caused them confusion so that they attacked each other? Keep in mind also that God rained down on them with hail stones, fire and brimstone. I would like to read on on this past event, thanks.


    This is believed to be Antiochus Epiphanes

    See how the bows, spears, and arrows are burned for firewood.


    If you are talking Rev 20:7-15, I agree with you
    Look closely at the mention of the dragon in Rev 20:2, rember that the dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12:3, Rome.




    Can you be more specific? What nations make up the 1/3 killed? I have a theory on it.



    Israel is the nations killed, 1/3 of Israel. Symbolizing incomplete, it will make Israel incomplete. (It will not be complete on this planet again after the 7th trumpet)


    Speculation? Do you have another passage confirming this?
    The 2Ws are literally the word of God, in the flesh, Israel. The Law and the Prophets.

    The 4th beast of Daniel was Rome. That's pretty much it for Rome. Daniel tells us what happened to Rome: "I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame." Rome is gone as a world empire and is not going to return. Kind of hard to return once destroyed and burned up.


    The beast was, is, is not, yet is.

    Rome was, is (John's time), is not (Roman Empire Falls), yet is (Vatican)

    And now has come from the place of the dead, and returned to sit on the seat of the beast again, Rome.

    I used to think that too, but no longer. I believe the 200 mil strong army are angels and that the 1/3 of the world they kill are Islamic.


    Angel are spirits, who must have flesh, it's the spirits of the men that are described.

    You are right about the 200 mill army, it is led by Iran.



    Well, that describes all who are born again.


    Yes


    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
    Jesus fell on the religious leaders of that time when He came and destroyed Jerusalem.

    This is a different stone.

    It is symbolic of Jesus, but the striking of Dan. 2 is not the dest of Jerusalem, it is the striking of the fire from heaven, the 7th vial.



    I have. It would take too long to respond here.
    I understand, take your time, think about it, why is the fire from heaven, the last thing that happens before the judgement? What exactly is the fire from heaven?

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Okay, Now I see a major confusion on your part. John liked the writing style that most Newspaper reporters use. I forget what that is called, but someone who has studied Journalism, can tell you what the name of the style of writing is. It is where you open with a broad overview, to grab their attention, and then you go back and fill in details, and go back and fill in more details, and if necessary, you go back and fill in even more details; until you have filled in all the details. That is why you think it is a broken timeline, because he did not totally use a Chronological timeline.

    May I ask you to be honest with us and tell us your denominational affilliation, and the Bible Teachers you have been listening to; and if you went to Bible College, what school?


    I attend a Non-denominational, conservative evangelical style of Church.

    I have not been to Bible College, but here are the Bible Teachers who have all had a part in discipling me:

    The Bible teachers that have had the most influence on my spiritual growth are:

    Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - http://www.gty.org/ sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
    Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
    Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
    Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
    Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
    Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
    Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
    Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
    Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audi...martin_walter/
    Dr. Ben Haden - Why
    Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -
    Dr. Dave Hunt -
    Eliezer Urbach, associated with Jews for Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publicat...ctober-2009/09

    As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry and Pastor Gordan Broadbent especially.

    I am no one in the eyes of men.

    I don't belong to any group or denomination.

    There is no website, or any one else who teaches the time line and the results that I understand.

    Some are close, but not the same.

    There is no one else, who says that Jerusalem will soon fall to Iran and Magog, and then Jesus will come.

    ---

    I have read many books and studies.

    Listened to many.

    Made my own decisions about the subjects.

    I have not been to church in years.

    The places I have attended were small.

    ---

    I am unknown and plan to stay that way.

    (it means that people will say, "The Bible is true", they won't know who I am, that is, they can say, "abcdef showed me", ha ha, more glory for Jesus)
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Yeah well, I'm on the first Jesus train outta here!
    Think I'll go get on the roof and have Rapture Practice!
    abcdef likes this.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    Yeah well, I'm on the first Jesus train outta here!
    Think I'll go get on the roof and have Rapture Practice!
    Have fun, but don't jump off, quite yet.

  13. #353


    VCO
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    Christ returned in 70 AD. If He didn't return in that generation, then He was a liar and we cannot have faith in Him. If we can introduce 2,000 year gaps any place we want, then none of the time lengths in the Bible have any true meaning. The 6 day creation can be 6,000 years. We can't rely on 3.5 days in the ground, it could have been 3.5 years, etc.

    I explained you ERROR TO YOU ONCE BEFORE. It is not the generation HE is talking to, that is "this generation"; BUT RATHER THE GENERATION HE IS TALKING ABOUT. LIKE I TOLD AT LEAST TWICE BEFORE, YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY READ THE CONTEXT.



    Matthew 24:29-35 (HCSB)
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken.
    30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and
    then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
    32
    “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near.
    33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize that He
    is near—at the door!
    34 I assure you:
    This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.
    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

  14. #354


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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    I am no one in the eyes of men.

    I don't belong to any group or denomination.

    There is no website, or any one else who teaches the time line and the results that I understand.

    Some are close, but not the same.

    There is no one else, who says that Jerusalem will soon fall to Iran and Magog, and then Jesus will come.

    ---

    I have read many books and studies.

    Listened to many.

    Made my own decisions about the subjects.

    I have not been to church in years.

    The places I have attended were small.

    ---

    I am unknown and plan to stay that way.

    (it means that people will say, "The Bible is true", they won't know who I am, that is, they can say, "abcdef showed me", ha ha, more glory for Jesus)

    So you are saying you are disobedient:


    Hebrews 10:24-25 (HCSB)
    24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
    25 not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

    Ephesians 4:10-13 (HCSB)
    10 The One who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
    11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
    12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
    13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.

    Ecclesiastes 5:1 (ESV)
    1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil.





    NO WONDER YOU ARE SO DECEIVED, YOU DECIDED YOU DID NOT NEED THE TRAINING.

    You have become SELF DECEIVED.


    2 Timothy 3:13 (NIV)
    13 . . . impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.


    NOW I have to ask you the MOST IMPORTANT and SERIOUS QUESTION of all.

    Can you Explain Born Again? If so PLEASE GIVE US YOUR EXPLANATION.
    Last edited by VCO; May 19th, 2017 at 10:17 PM.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    I got news for you Gog and Magog, are enemies.WERE,,, And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech (Turkey) and Tubal (Turkey), and prophesy against him. . .And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horse-men, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: 5 Persia (Iran), Ethiopia (Cush/Sudan), and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah (Turkey) of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee. - Ezekiel 38:1-6 KJV

    The Bible Version makes all the difference. don't it now!

    Today we see Russia and CHina (the kings of the East) working together...


    Ezekiel 38:3-10 (GW)
    3 Tell him, ‘This is what the Almighty LORD says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.
    4 I will turn you around and put hooks in your jaws. I will lead you out with all your military forces, with horses and riders. Your soldiers will be fully armed. They will carry large and small shields and be able to use swords.
    5 Persia, Sudan, and Put will be with you. They, too, will have shields and helmets.
    6 Gomer will come with all its troops and with the nation of Togarmah from the far north. There will be many armies with you.
    7 “‘Be prepared! Be prepared, you and all the soldiers assembled around you. You will be their leader.
    8 After a long time you will be called to service. In the years to come, you will attack a land that has been rebuilt after a war. Its people have been gathered from many nations and brought to the mountains of Israel, mountains that have been ruined for a long time. These people were brought there from the nations, and all of them live there safely.
    9 You will attack like a storm and cover the land like a cloud. Your troops and the many armies will be with you.
    10 “‘This is what the Almighty LORD says: At that time ideas will enter your head, and you will make wicked plans.
    Revelation 9:16-19 (NCV)
    16 I heard how many troops on horses were in their army—two hundred million.
    17 The horses and their riders I saw in the vision looked like this: They had breastplates that were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow like sulfur. The heads of the horses looked like heads of lions, with fire, smoke, and sulfur coming out of their mouths.
    18 A third of all the people on earth were killed by these three terrible disasters coming out of the horses’ mouths: the fire, the smoke, and the sulfur.
    19 The horses’ power was in their mouths and in their tails; their tails were like snakes with heads, and with them they hurt people.

    ONLY ONE ARMY IN THE WORLD HAS EVER HAD THAT MANY ARMED COMBATANTS IN THE ARMY, and that is modern day China.

    Horses may be:
    Chinese ARMORED VEHICLES


    God named him Ishmael. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

    Hence the descendants of Ishmael, (Muslims) will always be enemies of Israel.
    Wow did not expect that. Why do you say Gog and MaGog will Enemies. They are not enemies today...

    The muslim enemies of Israel will be taken care of by Israel during the psalm 83 war. This will bring on the Ezekial 38-39
    WHY? because after the psalm 83 war...Israel will have increase their land to almost the exact dimensions of what God promise them. They are prosperous and it is the reason why Gog and Magog attack them... To plunder their booty...

    we see this in Ezekial 38:13 KJV..where Sheba/Dedan (Saudi Arabia), Merchants of Tashish (British Isles) and Young lions (america and other territories of Britian):

    "13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?"

    Horses and Tanks.... One has to look at how John describes what he saw through his knowledge of the day. The Tank to him was best described as a Horse or a Chariot. The Israeli tank Named "the Merkava" means "Chariot" in Hebrew.

    John also sees "Smart Arrows" which no doubt are missles probably Cruise type missles.

    Have a good day my friend/

    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

  16. #356
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    [SIZE=3]I beg to differ. Use the Bible to interpret itself. The A of D is not identified in Mt 24 but it is in Lk 21.

    15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...”

    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

    What caused the desolation of Jerusalem? Roman solders in the temple is an "abomination" as any foreigner would be.
    Daniel tells us the Antichrist/Satan will STAND in the HOLY of Hollies. Daniel 9:27 using strong's H8251 for Abomination and using strong's H8074 for Desolate.

    H887 ba'ash bä·ash' stink, abhor, abomination, loathsome, stinking savour, utterly (inf. for emphasis)
    H6292 pigguwl pig·gül' abominable, abomination
    H8251 shiqquwts shik·küts' abomination, detestable things, detestable, abominable filth, abominable idols
    H8262 shaqats shä·kats' abomination, abominable, abhor, utterly, detest
    H8263 sheqets sheh'·kets abomination, abominable
    H8441 tow`ebah tō·ā·vä' abomination, abominable thing, abominable
    *********
    H490 'almanah al·mä·nä' widow, desolate house, desolate palace
    H816 'asham ä·sham' guilty, desolate, offend, trespass, certainly, destroy, faulty, greatly, offence
    H820 'ashman ash·män' desolate
    H910 badad bä·däd' alone, solitary, only, desolate
    H1327 battah bat·tä' desolate
    H1565 galmuwd gal·müd' solitary, desolate
    H2717 charab khä·rav' waste, dry, dry up, desolate, slay, decayeth, destroyed, destroyer, surely, utterly
    H2720 chareb khä·rāv' waste, dry, desolate
    H2723 chorbah khor·bä' waste, desolation, desolate places, waste places, desert, desolate, decayed places, destructions
    H3173 yachiyd yä·khēd' only, darling, only child, only son, desolate, solitary
    H3341 yatsath yä·tsath' kindle, burned, set, burn up, desolate
    H3456 yasham yä·sham' desolate
    H3582 kachad kä·khad' hide, cut off, conceal, desolate, cut down
    H4923 mĕshammah mesh·am·mä' desolate, astonishment
    H5352 naqah nä·kä' unpunished, guiltless, innocent, clear, cleanse, free, by no means, acquit, altogether, cut off, at all, blameless, desolate, quit, utterly, wholly
    H7582 sha'ah shä·ä' lay waste, rushing, waste, desolate
    H7722 show' shō desolation, destruction, desolate, destroy, storm, wasteness
    H8047 shammah sham·mä' astonishment, desolation, desolate, waste, wonderful
    H8074 shamem shä·mām' desolate, astonished, desolation, waste, destroy, wondered, amazed, astonishment, misc
    H8076 shamem shä·mām' desolate
    H8077 shĕmamah shem·ä·mä' desolate, desolation, waste, misc


    How long did it take you to make that up.????????

    You are right Here. The roman soldier's did cause Jerusalem to be Desolate.. An empty/Dead place.

    Hope this helps but I doubt you will listen/
    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Hi VCO: If you are claiming that "this generation shall not pass until all is fulfilled" was Jesus speaking of a generation alive at the end of the age, then you have missed what the bible is saying. I know what Jesus said was very confusing, however Matt 23 and 24 shows us from the context that Jesus was indeed speaking of the people living at the time He made the statement when He said "this generation". It is apparent that much of what Jesus said would happen in that generation did in fact happen in that generation.

  18. #358
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    I explained you ERROR TO YOU ONCE BEFORE. It is not the generation HE is talking to, that is "this generation"; BUT RATHER THE GENERATION HE IS TALKING ABOUT. LIKE I TOLD AT LEAST TWICE BEFORE, YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY READ THE CONTEXT.



    Matthew 24:29-35 (HCSB)
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken.
    30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and
    then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
    32
    “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near.
    33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize that He
    is near—at the door!
    34 I assure you:
    This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.
    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
    You are right on VCO. The "generation" that Jesus was speaking of, is the one that will experience all of those signs that He spoke of. To make "this generation" the generation that Jesus was speaking from would be grammatically incorrect. According to PW's interpretation, it would force the signs to take place in Jesus' generation, instead of the generation being identified by the signs.

    Regarding this, it would mean that all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments would also have had to have taken place prior to the destruction of the temple, which in no way have yet taken place. It would also mean that all of Rev.19:11-21 would have taken place. Those who hold to the same interpretation as PW have to make "this generation" the one that Jesus was speaking from in order to support their belief of everything being fulfilled in 70 AD. Because of this, they have no idea of the severity of God's coming wrath.
    Last edited by Ahwatukee; May 19th, 2017 at 11:17 PM.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Have fun, but don't jump off, quite yet.
    Now worries, just practicing.

    Ya know, the Lord has done the rapture (catching away) thing before so He has a history of rescuing His faithful... did anyone show that the Lord has a pattern of doing this?

    1 Corinthians 10:13

    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    Jesus did mention the great trib was a time of temptation (testings, trial) that would come upon the earth and test man so it's no wonder that He will make a way of escape for His faith so they do not have to go thru this.

    A good God would do that, but if the God you serve is a mean God... he's gonna leave you here, apparently to clean you up as I've heard some say as though being washed in the Blood and led by the Holy Spirit isn't good enough for God and He's gonna make some folks work for it...

    Jesus prayed for His followers that God would keep us from the evil in this world (John 17:15)... reckon God honored His prayer???

  20. #360
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
    Hi VCO: If you are claiming that "this generation shall not pass until all is fulfilled" was Jesus speaking of a generation alive at the end of the age, then you have missed what the bible is saying. I know what Jesus said was very confusing, however Matt 23 and 24 shows us from the context that Jesus was indeed speaking of the people living at the time He made the statement when He said "this generation". It is apparent that much of what Jesus said would happen in that generation did in fact happen in that generation.
    Well samuel23, if you believe that "this generation" was speaking about the generation that Jesus was speaking from, then you need to take English 101 over again.

    The proof of the generation that is leading up to the end of the age, is the one where those signs take place. By claiming that "this generation" is the one that Jesus was speaking from all of the following would have had to taken place:

    * Antichrist makes establishes an agreement with Israel for seven years

    * Seal, trumpets and bowl judgment would have take place

    * The abomination set up in the holy place within the temple

    * The beast would have made war and conquered the saints during the last 3 1/2 years

    * The beast would have suffered a fatal wound and survived

    * The entire world would be in admiration of the beast

    * The oceans and the fresh water would have all been turned into literal blood (Bowls 2 & 3)

    * All the inhabitants of the earth would have received the mark of the beast to buy and sell

    * Every eye would have to have seen Christ when he returned to the earth

    * The angels would have gone throughout the earth to gather the wicked

    * All of the kings and their armies would have gathered for Armageddon and killed with the double-edged sword

    * The beast and the false prophet would have been captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

    * Satan would have been bound in the Abyss for a thousand years

    * And we currently have to be living in the millennial kingdom

    These events are just off the top of my head and not in any specific order. But as you can plainly see none of those events have taken place, that is unless you spiritualize/allegorize them in order to get rid of their literal meaning.

    It is therefore ridiculous to even entertain the idea that Christ has already returned. One that I didn't mention, would be the fact that if Jesus had returned in 70 AD, the majority of the church would have been left out of His promises, since the church is still in the process of being built. The fact is that, the promises that Jesus gave is to ALL BELIEVERS, not just to the first century Church.

    What is going to happen is that, once the church has been completed, the Lord will then descend to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ will be raised. Immediately following that, the living in Christ will be changed and caught up with them where the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17.

    Then, all that I wrote above and more will take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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