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Thread: The Rapture

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    "this generation shall not pass until all is fulfilled"
    The Lord was not speaking of the generation standing there listening to Him... He was talking about the generation that sees the things He was talking about come to pass...

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    The 7th trumpet is never mentioned as being the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15:52. It is implied by you and others and that simply because they both use the word trumpet, which is not unique to any specific event. There are many different types of trumpets, which signal different events. It would be a matter of knowing what the fist trumpet was in order to understand the reference to the last trumpet. The only reason that the "last trumpet" is applied to the 7th trumpet is because it is the last one in that set. The fact is that, the last trumpet has nothing to do with the trumpet judgments.

    The fact that Jesus said that no one would no the time of his return should tell you that the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet referred to and that because it would mean that we could know the time of his return. Not only that, but the other problem is that if the 7th trumpet was the last trumpet mentioned, then it would put the church through most of God's wrath.
    God is specific....he did not say no one would know the time....he said day nor hour and that the season WOULD BE KNOWN.......
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    So you are saying you are disobedient:


    Hebrews 10:24-25 (HCSB)
    24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
    25 not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

    Ephesians 4:10-13 (HCSB)
    10 The One who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
    11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
    12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
    13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.

    Ecclesiastes 5:1 (ESV)
    1 Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil.





    NO WONDER YOU ARE SO DECEIVED, YOU DECIDED YOU DID NOT NEED THE TRAINING.

    You have become SELF DECEIVED.


    2 Timothy 3:13 (NIV)
    13 . . . impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.


    My brother,

    All these accusations, without even knowing, why, I have not been to church for years.
    --
    Are you angry, because I have shown you the truth? And it is a little different than what you thought?

    I'd made you look at things, from a slightly different angle?

    Ok, be angry, but then listen, reason, see the possibilities.

    Who is the beast iron nation that lasts until the stone strikes?

    Who is the Roman iron beast nation, right now?


    NOW I have to ask you the MOST IMPORTANT and SERIOUS QUESTION of all.

    Can you Explain Born Again? If so PLEASE GIVE US YOUR EXPLANATION.

    Jn 3:5, "....Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    Acts 2:38, "....Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    I have not been to church for years
    That shows you don't obey God's Word concerning God's people gathering together:

    Hebrews 10:24,25
    And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


    Anyone not doing what God said to do... it makes what they say suspect.

    So, there's NO churches in your area at all?

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    That shows you don't obey God's Word concerning God's people gathering together:

    Hebrews 10:24,25
    And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


    Anyone not doing what God said to do... it makes what they say suspect.

    So, there's NO churches in your area at all?


    All I can say, is don't judge me until we stand before His throne.

    Then He shall be the judge of us all.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    My brother,

    All these accusations, without even knowing, why, I have not been to church for years.
    --
    Are you angry, because I have shown you the truth? And it is a little different than what you thought?

    I'd made you look at things, from a slightly different angle?

    Ok, be angry, but then listen, reason, see the possibilities.

    Who is the beast iron nation that lasts until the stone strikes?

    Who is the Roman iron beast nation, right now?





    Jn 3:5, "....Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    Acts 2:38, "....Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    No, I am not even remotely close to angry, but I am sad for how deceived you have allowed yourself to become.

    You are sincerely believing and teaching false doctrines and twisted interpretations. Many liberal Christians will water down the message, so as not to offend you; but I believe TRUE LOVE, will tell people the Whole TRUTH.

    You did not even attempt to explain Born Again, which I take as validation that you are not born again. Which is why your understanding is so twisted and false. When you are Born Again, the understanding is taught to you by the Holy Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 2:4-16 (NIV)
    4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
    5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
    6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
    7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
    8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
    10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
    11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
    12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
    13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
    14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
    16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


    1 Timothy 4:1 (NASB)
    1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,



    John 14:15-17 (HCSB)
    15 If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
    16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
    17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.


    1 John 2:3-5 (HCSB)
    3 This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands.
    4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected. This is how we know we are in Him:

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 (HCSB)
    16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
    17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    Hebrews 10:23-25 (HCSB)
    23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
    24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
    25 not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


    1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
    Last edited by VCO; May 20th, 2017 at 02:49 AM.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    God is specific....he did not say no one would know the time....he said day nor hour and that the season WOULD BE KNOWN.......
    Welcome brother, long time no see.


    Matthew 16:2-4 (NRSV)
    2 He answered them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.'
    3 And in the morning, 'It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
    4 An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah." Then he left them and went away.


    There are still an enormous amount of people who cannot interpret the signs of the times.


    Hebrews 10:24-25 (NRSV)
    24 And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds,
    25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.



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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    All I can say, is don't judge me until we stand before His throne.

    Then He shall be the judge of us all.
    I thought you said it was all fulfilled by 70 A.D.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    Yeah well, I'm on the first Jesus train outta here!
    Think I'll go get on the roof and have Rapture Practice!

    That's what they did in 70 AD. 6,000 followed the "Man of Sin" (your so-called "Antichrist") to the Temple and were waiting for God to rescue them. Many climbed on the roof of the temple and others were below. As the temple burned and the cloisters were set ablaze, some plunged headlong into the fire others were burned up in the cloisters themselves. All 6,000 were killed. This is why Jesus warned not to go with these false prophets.

    You can read about it here:

    "War of the Jews" 6-5-2&3:

    The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life. A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance.

    Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.


    Or if you prefer, you can read about it here:

    2 Thes 2:


    3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God... 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie...

    Or here:

    Mat 24:

    23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

    26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

    Last edited by PlainWord; May 20th, 2017 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    The Lord was not speaking of the generation standing there listening to Him... He was talking about the generation that sees the things He was talking about come to pass...
    URGGH, Wrong!! He was speaking to them.

    5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

    Happened, as I just showed you.

    6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars...7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

    Happened, Vespasian and Titus defeated Galilee and the surrounded towns before surrounding Jerusalem. Rome also invaded Syria and defeated many towns.

    And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

    Happened. Both the Bible and the historians of the day show that indeed famine and pestilence did occur before the time of the end. The Bible speaks of famine in Acts 11:27-29. The famine was so great that the church as far away as Corinth participated in relief efforts (1 Corinthians 16:1-5, Romans 15:25-28).

    The historians of the day wrote extensively about famines in that day. Secular historians such as Tacitus wrote that famine fell upon the entire Roman Empire. It was established that at one point there was no more than fifteen day’s supply of food in the city of Rome. Josephus said there were famines leading up to the time of Jerusalem’s destruction. He records the consequences in graphic detail.

    There were several earthquakes between Christ and 70 AD. Acts 16:26 recounts one of them. In the writings of the first century historian Tacitus we read a description of the conditions in A.D. 51 in Rome: "This year witnessed many prodigies signs or omens... including repeated earthquakes." Josephus accounts that an earthquake in Judea was such a magnitude that "the constitution of the universe was confounded for the destruction of men."

    He also wrote wrote that earthquakes were "a common calamity", and indicated that God Himself had brought them about for a special purpose. There were earthquakes in Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, and Judea. Paul started churches at Colosse and Hierapolis. However, these two cities, along with Laodicea, suffered a great earthquake in approximately A.D. 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon after the earthquake, but Colosse and Hierapolis were not.

    9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

    Happened. If you read Mark's account, Jesus was specifically speaking to 4 of His disciples, Peter, James, John, and Andrew. All but John were martyred prior to the great tribulation of 70 AD.

    11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

    Happened, showed you in my last post.

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    Mark 16:15 contains the command for them to go into "all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." According to Paul in Romans 1, they did: "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Then in Romans 10, he says this, "
    But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.” So, while this "preaching to the whole world" may not meet our definition, it certainly met theirs.

    “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

    Luke makes clear what the abomination (which causeth) desolation was.

    Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    Many of the Christians fled to Pella, Syria during the brief period when Nero died causing Vespasian to withdraw and before Titus came.

    But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

    Christ gave this warning to not have Children once you see the Roman solders because you will have to flee with great haste and don't want anything slowing you down.

    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    This was the suffering inside Jerusalem during the Roman siege. Zec 11:8 discusses the "three shepherds" who slaughter the people. History tells us they were John of Gischala, Simon bar Giora and Eleazar son of Simon.

    “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive..

    I went over this in my last post.

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    This happened. "A heavy storm (says Josephus) burst on them during the night violent winds arose, accompanied with the most excessive rains, with constant lightnings, most tremendous thunderings, and with dreadful roarings of earthquakes. It seemed (continues he) as if the system of the world had been confounded for the destruction of mankind and one might well conjecture that these were signs of no common events." All this occurred in Jesus’ contemporaries.

    30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...

    This happened. "Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year."

    they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    This happened. "At the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."

    And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    This happened. "they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

    34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

    And so it happened, all within a 40 year period just as Christ said it would.









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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    That shows you don't obey God's Word concerning God's people gathering together:

    Hebrews 10:24,25
    And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


    Anyone not doing what God said to do... it makes what they say suspect.

    So, there's NO churches in your area at all?
    Brother a-f is gathering with us. He is getting plenty of fellowship on these pages. Since you are not an American, you likely don't know how hard it is to find a good church anymore. I'm blessed to be in a good church with a pastor who actually teaches the Bible. Most churches, however, are productions with big stages, concerts, etc. I call them "Big show" churches. In some of these churches you have to wait 20 minutes for the pastor to be done telling stories before he opens the Word. Then all you get are Sunday School stories, feeding of the 5,000, etc.

    We do not know what it's like for brother a-f. And it is not for you to judge another believer. "Judge not, that you be not judged." Based on your writings and his, I'd say that he spends far more time in the Word.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    No, I am not even remotely close to angry, but I am sad for how deceived you have allowed yourself to become.

    All you have to do is answer some questions.

    Who is the nation of the iron legs/toes, that lasts until the stone strikes? Dan. 2?

    Who was the iron legs/toes nation 500 years ago?

    Who is the iron legs/toes nation at the present time?

    (If you have any problems answering, run to your website and find out what you believe)


    You are sincerely believing and teaching false doctrines and twisted interpretations. Many liberal Christians will water down the message, so as not to offend you; but I believe TRUE LOVE, will tell people the Whole TRUTH.
    I am telling you. Go back and read my posts. I will try to answer every question.



    You did not even attempt to explain Born Again, which I take as validation that you are not born again.

    Do you go to church and ask some one if they are born again, and they answer "yes",

    And then you say to them, "Please explain being born again."

    They may say, "I cannot." (perhaps a new Christian)

    Then you say, "Then you are not born again, if you cannot explain it."

    Is that a sign, that someone is born again, that they can now explain it?

    ---

    I gave you 2 verses that explain being born again, one what Jesus said, and the other an example.

    You have studied and understand very well what they mean.

    ---

    Which is why your understanding is so twisted and false. When you are Born Again, the understanding is taught to you by the Holy Spirit.

    You are waiting for the 10 toes to begin,

    But you don't realize, at this point, that the toes have ended and the stone is about to strike.

    -----

    Instead of attacking me personally, try reasoning.

    Just because we disagree about some parts of prophecy,

    Doesn't make us less Christian.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    it is not for you to judge another believer
    I wasn't judging him... I was simply repeating what God said.

    God will judge based on His Word and He says we should not forsake the gathering of ourselves.

    If there are no churches in his area, he should at least start a Bible study and reach out to others in his area being of service to the Lord.

    Jesus said to judge a righteous judgement so He did not actually say to not judge... He just reminds us that the judgement we dish out will be used to judge ourselves.

    So, I have done nothing wrong by quoting Hebrews 10:24,25

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    I wasn't judging him... I was simply repeating what God said.

    God will judge based on His Word and He says we should not forsake the gathering of ourselves.

    If there are no churches in his area, he should at least start a Bible study and reach out to others in his area being of service to the Lord.

    Jesus said to judge a righteous judgement so He did not actually say to not judge... He just reminds us that the judgement we dish out will be used to judge ourselves.

    So, I have done nothing wrong by quoting Hebrews 10:24,25
    How about 1 Thes 4?

    9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;
    11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you...

    My point is, you cannot criticize another brother in Christ without having ever met him. You know nothing of his circumstance and you cannot know his heart or walk with our God. I ask that you reflect on some of your harsh comments you've made to some of us on these pages who disagree with your doctrine. Let's treat each other with respect, even in disagreement. I like a healthy debate, emphasis on "healthy." I would appreciate it.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.


    -----------------ALL OF THE ABOVE WAS PRIOR TO 70 AD----------------------

    ----------------- ALL OF THE BELOW IS FUTURE TO US ----------------------


    35
    Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


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    Default Re: The Rapture

    a-f,

    This is believed to be Antiochus Epiphanes

    See how the bows, spears, and arrows are burned for firewood.
    I don't see how this fits. In Ez 38-39, Gog is destroyed BEFORE conquering Israel. Antiochus conquered Israel. The city of Jerusalem was destroyed (168 BC). He rules the Jews for 11 years. If I am not mistaken, Jerusalem has always been a walled city until defeated by Rome (old city excepted).

    Israel is the nations killed, 1/3 of Israel. Symbolizing incomplete, it will make Israel incomplete. (It will not be complete on this planet again after the 7th trumpet)
    Zec 13 states that 2/3 of Israel will be cut off. The phrase "day or hour" is found in just two places in the entire Bible. Both times dealt with heaven and earth passing away and the return of the Son of Man. Here at the 6th trumpet we have the "day, hour and year."

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Here is something for you to consider abcdef: how can Jesus return at the 7th trumpet, when at the pouring out of the 6th bowl, which takes place well after the 7th trumpet He interjects that he has not yet returned
    Because you have to understand how time and eternity interact. Events that occur in one order in the heavenlies do not necessarily manifest in the same order in time.

    Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. Perhaps this may look familiar:

    eternity)---time---(eternity

    But that image is wrong. What we need to picture is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this image in mind we can see how, like randomly inserted spokes, God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time.

    Let me example it to you this way. The day you are born, God leaves the hub and enters the rim and walks beside you every single step of your life until you die… and then He takes you home to the hub. Having spent your whole life on the rim with you, then retreating back into the hub with you, from there God reaches out into time when the person sitting next to you is born. He spends that person’s entire rim-life with them, until He brings them home to the hub. Then God touches the rim again, maybe reaching into time the day King David was born. God spends David’s entire life with him, then brings him home. And so on for every single one of us. That is how God is able to be with all of us, all of the time, all at the same time. Because the time constraints we live under don't apply to Him. And that is the point to take away from all that - the time constraints we live under don't apply to God. He can manifest at any point in time, past and future, any time He wants to.

    If you look at the events of the trumpets and seals many sound similar. While in the heavenlies they play out in a particular order, in time they are like drops of water in a bucket full of misery ... they spread out and affect the whole bucket not just where they land. That's why truthfully the tribulation started with Jesus' ascension, and the events of 70 ad were a fulfilment of prophecy both then and yet to come. Those last 7 years will bring nothing new to man, it's merely a final escalation of what's been happening in the world since the beginning. To a much lesser degree, the events of the trumpets and seals are happening to us now.

    Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they think they know.

    It's hard to learn anything when you always feel the need to be the expert.

    Mark 7:34 “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Time is nothing more than a unit of measure of the earth's rotation around the sun. A minute or hour for us is different than it would be on Mars or any other planet. There is no time on the sun, for instance. That's why 1,000 years to God is like a day and vice versa.

    The parousia (Second Coming) happened in 70 AD and so did the rapture. The OT saints and pre-parousia saints who died before Christ returned where resurrected. All living believers on the planet at the time were then transformed into glorious bodies and all returned with Christ to heaven. This is why we have no Christian writings from the period immediately following 70 AD for quite some time. Therefore John wrote Revelation prior to 70 AD and he was raptured. There is no known location for his body, just speculation.

    When a believer dies today, they immediately go to heaven in transformed bodies. This is why those who have encountered a near death experience relate that they've seen their loved ones in heaven in full bodies. This is why John saw those in heaven with white robes, fully clothed.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    This is why we have no Christian writings from the period immediately following 70 AD for quite some time.
    huh?



    source of the table above is:

    Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

    are all their dates that wrong?

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    I said written, not copied. Every single disciple was dead by Aug 10, 70 AD except John. He was raptured when Christ returned, just as Christ hinted. James died in A.D. 44 after he was beheaded by King Agrippa. Mark was dragged by a rope around his neck in Alexandria in 68 AD until he died.

    2 Thes!! Where are these dates coming from. Paul wrote that in 51 AD and he died well before the Great Tribulation.

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