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Thread: The Rapture

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Post tribulation/pre-wrath at the 7th trump is what the bible teaches.....don't buy the imminent return fallacy!
    Here's a couple of scripture proofs regarding the imminent return of the Lord for the church:

    "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"

    "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

    Since the home owner doesn't know what time a thief would break in, he would have to always be watching.

    "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    Imminency
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  2. #22


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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by 2nicee View Post
    I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS
    Then you have overlooked studying what the Calling Out of Bride, and Wedding of the Lamb are all about.

    Because of false teachers like Harold Camping and many others who have misrepresented and even changed the meaning of the term, I do not even like to use the term Rapture. Instead I prefer to call it what it really is, "The Calling Out of the Bride" for the Wedding of the Lamb, and I have found that most Conservative Evangelicals have pretty much the same beliefs about:

    THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE (THE CHURCH - The sum total of all true believers, OT and NT):

    To fully understand the significance of expressions, such as: "I go to prepare a place for you", or "a thief in the night", or "with the voice of an archangel", or "only the Father knows", you have to know the Jewish Wedding traditions. I can highly recommend the booklet "A Christian Love Story" by Zola Levitt that may still be available at his website. Or it can be found on Amazon.com, in Kindle format for less than two dollars.

    If a man was seeking a bride 2000 years ago, he had to first go to the father and make a contract or covenant with the father for what price he wanted for the bride. The Father's price to redeem the Bride the Church, was a Holy Blood Sacrifice; 1 Cor. 6:20.

    The price for the Bride would be payable immediately after the bride accepted the proposal (if she accepted); the man would be invited to a family sitdown supper, where he would propose. The proposal was NEVER VERBAL. He would pour a cup of wine and set it down in front of the woman he wanted to be his Bride. If she took the cup and drank from it, she was accepting his proposal. Jesus on the night of the Last Supper poured the cup of wine and passed it to the Disciples the Foundation of the Church, choosing the Church as his intended Bride. The Disciples drank from the Cup accepting the Proposal of Jesus Christ to the Church; Mat. 26:27.

    Once she had taken the cup and drank from it, they immediately became known as Bride and Bridegroom for the entire betrothal period. Before the Bridegroom would leave the dwelling place of the Bride, he would stand and make a verbal announcement, "I go to prepare a place for you." YES, the very words of Jesus, come from the traditional Jewish Wedding Proposal; John 14:2-3.

    When the Bridegroom left the old dwelling place of the Bride, he would never set foot in it again until after the Wedding Ceremony in the new dwelling place. Jesus has left the old dwelling place of the Bride, Earth; and He will not set foot on it again until after the Marriage of the Lamb to the Church, which takes place in New City Jerusalem He is building for his Bride; 1 Th. 4:17, Rev. 21:2, Mat. 24:30.

    ONLY his father could decide, "The new dwelling place is finished, go get your Bride." He would periodically come and inspect the progress and make the son add this and that until the new dwelling place met his father's standards, because the young man may be too anxious to go get his Bride and cut corners to get done quickly. So literally NO ONE but the father knew when the Wedding would be. Jesus said that very thing, in Mark 13:32.

    When the Bride would see signs that the new dwelling place was nearly finished, she would gather her wedding party at her place, and they all had to bring lamps with oil in them, because the traditional time for the Bridegroom to come and steal the Bride away was at night, usually around midnight. They would sleep over because they were not sure which night, just that it could be soon, and very soon. Hence the parable of Ten Virgins is telling a very familiar Wedding Story that every Jew would recognize, as their Wedding traditions; Mat. 25:1-13, 1 Th. 5:2.

    When the father finally told his son, "The new dwelling place is finished, go get your bride." The Bridegroom would quickly gather his Wedding party, choosing one of them to Shout and call the Bride out of her old dwelling place. They would stop just outside the old dwelling place, NOT setting foot in it, while the chosen one would Shout and call the bride out. Jesus has already chosen the Archangel to Shout and call us out of our old dwelling place, Earth; 1 Th. 4:16-18.

    The entire wedding party, would all go back to the new dwelling place for the 7 day Wedding Ceremony. Most Evangelicals, believe that the One Week Wedding Ceremony, and the 70th Week of Daniel is the Same Week of Years. After the Ceremony, the entire Wedding party would return to the old dwelling place of the Bride for the Wedding Feast. Then for the first time since the Proposal the bridegroom sets foot in the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride.

    What about the Old Testament Saints?
    I believe the Bride is the sum total of all true believers of all time.

    We NT saints are those who believe Jesus is the Messiah and received HIM as Lord.

    The OT saints are those who believed Messiah would come and received HIM as Lord.

    See it, it is the same faith, the Faith of Abraham.

    Jeremiah 2:2 (NIV)
    2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: "'I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the desert, through a land not sown.

    Isaiah 62:5 (ASV)
    5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.


    Ephesians 5:23 (HCSB)
    23 for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body.

    Matthew 9:15 (NKJV)
    15 And Jesus said to them, "Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.

    2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)

    3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
    4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

    Matt 25:1 (NKJV)
    1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the Bridegroom.

    The New Dwelling Place that HE promised to build us in John 14:2, is the dwelling place every bridegroom built for his bride, in his father's house. And it will remain there, until after the Millennial Kingdom when it is lowered to the new earth still decorated from the like a bride from the Wedding of the Lamb that took place there. How do we get back and forth if we are to reign with him for that thousand years? It does not specifically say, but maybe that is why the story of Jacob's Ladder is in the Bible, to validate to those of us who will be in our glorified bodies, that we will find that there is a way for us to reign as Priests (teachers of the children born in the KINGDOM to the 144,000 Jews), and still have our dwelling place in Heaven where our citizenship already is.
    Last edited by VCO; April 23rd, 2017 at 09:01 PM.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Something that I should mention, is the Word CHURCH is NOT in the original Greek Manuscripts that were used to translate to English into what became our English Bibles.


    Matthew 16:18 (NASB)
    18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church {ekklêsia}; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."


    Greek NASB Number: 1577

    Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

    Transliterated Word: ekklêsia
    Root: from 1537 and 2564;

    Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--

    New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.



    At the Time that Jesus said that word it ONLY MEANT "assembly", that Same thing HE call the congregation of True Believers in the Old Testament.


    Hence, Young's Literal Translation, corrected that error in Translation.

    Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
    18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


    Therefore I believe the FIRST person in the ASSEMBLY that Christ is building is ADAM, and the Last person to accept Jesus as LORD in New Testament times, will be the Last member of the ASSEMBLY HE IS BUILDING.
    Last edited by VCO; April 23rd, 2017 at 09:26 PM.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Something that I should mention, is the Word CHURCH is NOT in the original Greek Manuscripts that were used to translate to English into what became our English Bibles.


    Matthew 16:18 (NASB)
    18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church {ekklêsia}; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."


    Greek NASB Number: 1577

    Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

    Transliterated Word: ekklêsia
    Root: from 1537 and 2564;

    Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--

    New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.



    At the Time that Jesus said that word it ONLY MEANT "assembly", that Same thing HE call the congregation of True Believers in the Old Testament.


    Hence, Young's Literal Translation, corrected that error in Translation.

    Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
    18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


    Therefore I believe the FIRST person in the ASSEMBLY that Christ is building is ADAM, and the Last person to accept Jesus as LORD in New Testament times, will be the Last member of the ASSEMBLY HE IS BUILDING.
    Hello VCO,

    Regardless of the word used, the word "Build" is in the future tense, meaning that the group that Jesus was speaking about that he was going to build had not previously existed. For you wouldn't build something that already existed.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Paul said at the LAST TRUMP the dead in Christ shall rise and we which are alive and REMAIN will be changed....

    Simple question....SIMPLE ANSWER

    WHEN is the last trump mentioned in the bible?

    WATCH the imminent returners back flip, tap dance, argue and explain away the LAST TRUMP FOUND IN THE BIBLE......as they do with dozens of other proofs that identify the timing/time frame of the resurrection/change

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    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Paul said at the LAST TRUMP the dead in Christ shall rise and we which are alive and REMAIN will be changed....

    Simple question....SIMPLE ANSWER

    WHEN is the last trump mentioned in the bible?

    WATCH the imminent returners back flip, tap dance, argue and explain away the LAST TRUMP FOUND IN THE BIBLE......as they do with dozens of other proofs that identify the timing/time frame of the resurrection/change
    The 7th trumpet is never mentioned as being the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15:52. It is implied by you and others and that simply because they both use the word trumpet, which is not unique to any specific event. There are many different types of trumpets, which signal different events. It would be a matter of knowing what the fist trumpet was in order to understand the reference to the last trumpet. The only reason that the "last trumpet" is applied to the 7th trumpet is because it is the last one in that set. The fact is that, the last trumpet has nothing to do with the trumpet judgments.

    The fact that Jesus said that no one would no the time of his return should tell you that the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet referred to and that because it would mean that we could know the time of his return. Not only that, but the other problem is that if the 7th trumpet was the last trumpet mentioned, then it would put the church through most of God's wrath.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    I suppose I lean more towards the prewrath rapture which also may be mid trib i'm entirely sure but I also may be wrong and perhaps we will be taken before all this happens. I have to say though i very much doubt the post trib rapture is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yahweh_is_gracious View Post
    Eschatology makes zero sense to me, but as I go through my readings, I suppose I am more apt to believe in the mid-tribulation rapture
    For the life of me, I wouldn't understand why any reasonably reasonable person wouldn't eventually think to just simply...sit at the feet of Jesus as He delivered His "Olivet Discourse" to Peter, James, John and Andrew.

    Imagine what a privilege it would be to sit next to those four after they had asked Jesus to tell them what to look for in the end times...and YET...that privilege is still afforded to anyone who sits through a reading of that meeting between Jesus and the disciples.

    And what did Jesus tell them? He told them there would be many troubles in the world leading up to the time of the Abomination of Desolation...at which time there would be REAL trouble for a period of time.


    He told them this Abomination would be the first specific, recognizable event they should expect to see. And it is widely recognized and agreed upon, this Abomination is the moment of the Antichrist's ferocious introduction to the world.

    So, at that time there will commence "great tribulation" according to Jesus...starting with the "trampling of the Holy City for 42 months [1260 days]" (Revelation 11:2)...but with this great tribulation ENDING...some time before those 1260 days.

    How do we know the "great tribulation" ends before the full 42 months of "trampling" have been completed?

    1) Because Jesus also says that...while we will certainly recognize the onset of "great tribulation"...He cautions that He does not know "the day or hour" of the END of the troubles and the subsequent rescuing of believers by means of a supernatural transporting (i.e. a "rapture").

    Therefore, the "great tribulation" MUST end sometime before the full 1260 days...otherwise any believers during that time would know the exact day of their "gathering"/rapture rescue. That can't be.

    2) The second reason we know our time of "great tribulation" ends before the full 1260 days / 42 months...is because of the signs in the heavens which Jesus says will signal our time of departure...the sun and the moon darkening, the stars appearing to "fall from the sky".

    When you go to Rev. 6, you see that these cosmic signs occur well before the end of the 1260 days. In fact, there in Rev. 6:16,17 it is stated the appearance of these staggering cosmic signs is the signal that God's wrath is about to commence...just as the believers are about to be taken heavenward!

    Therefore, there MUST be any number of days and months left in this 1260 day period...in order to fit in God's time of wrath...which, of course, we see described in the remaining chapters of Revelation.

    This is resoundingly confirmed in Joel 2:31 which states "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Hello again Rickyz,

    Regarding the seals and the trumpets, how would you interpret the following:

    Announced at the 6th seal:

    "The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?"

    Announced at the 7th trumpet:


    "The nations were angry and your wrath has come."

    I would not use the word attack, but rather contending for the truth of Scripture. People's attempt to separate the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as not all belonging to God's wrath is another one of the errors that leads to misinterpreting end-time events. They are three sets of seven judgments which will complete God's wrath. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which leads to the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments, which complete God's wrath.

    Since all three sets are all God's judgments of wrath and the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, how then can the church go through the seals and the trumpets?
    Brother, (wraps arm around Ahwatukee's shoulder), you and I have debated this endlessly and we're not going to gain any more ground by debating it again. I hate where that leads and I hate that I participate in it. All I know for sure is that it will happen when it happens, and after it does you and I will laugh at the silliness we wrought here at CC. The op asked my position, I gave it, and I'm going to leave it at that. Love you.
    Katy-follower and Magenta like this.

    Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they think they know.

    It's hard to learn anything when you always feel the need to be the expert.

    Mark 7:34 “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Hasten to add (add on to my previous post)...the "righteous remnant" and the Jewish people there in the Jerusalem area...THEY WILL have to endure the full 42 months (1260 days). It is the believers, those who are Jesus-followers who will be extracted some time before the end of those 1260 days.

    It is my understanding the 'righteous remnant that all during the 1260 days, THEY WILL NOT YET UNDERSTAND that Jesus is their Messiah...even though God has set them aside and will confer full salvation on them in the end.

    They will ultimately understand who their Messiah is and who Jesus is...when Jesus finally presents Himself to them and which is described in this wonderfully prophetic passage in Zech. 12:10 -- "they will look upon me, on him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."


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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by 2nicee View Post
    I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS
    matthew 24: 3-4 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and WHAT SHALL BE THE SIGN of thy coming, and of the END of the world?
    4And JESUS answered and SAID unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you....."


    He then goes on to give many signs and events and tribulations christians will face, and then says


    matthew 24:3-4 "Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: << ( same thing that revelation describes) 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."




    after this He gives a very vivid image of His coming and His angels in chapter 25


    matthew 25:31-33 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...-v46 describe the Judgement seating of Christ....


    Jesus continually talks about His return saying things Like " I will come as a thief when no one expects me" continually gives parables like keep watch, or the ten virgins, be vigilant in Serving God and then One day He will appear and gather us together administer reward and punishment. Jesus in the gospels are the place to find the basis for understanding the rest. its His Kingdom He authored it for us taught His disciples and they then taught us, the 4 gospels should always be the foundation of understanding and study" pretty clearly christians are suffering even today 90,000 christians were matryred for thier faith in 2016 alone worldwide, churches bombed on sunday mornings, mass excecutions, missionaries killed by militants beheadings..on and on.


    We forget sometimes in a country Like america, that the Bible is written from the view of isreals place in the world, and anyone who cares to look at the world news today, nearly every country around isreal is in chaos, from the view of isreal my point is...the world is a truly evil place where abominations happen on a daily basis. children in syria starved, Gassed, blown up with barrel bombs. or koptic christains beheaded on a strip of lebenon soil. burned alive by isis in iraq or afghanistan, churches bombed on palm sundays where christians are very much being persecuted, the tribulation is ongoing, even in places that arent ruled by chaos and death....


    Greed, self, lust, pride, envy ect.....they rule those places inwardly and there is little true Love being found for those who truly need Gods Love that is action helping anothers needs, investing our hearts and things into Other people who have less than enough. I believe truly the tribulation is all around us and were mostly conditioned to care about our own little worlds and dont realize there is a big world and looking from isreals point of view is total chaos all around Gods center of the universe, Jerusalem.from north korea to russia, china, syria, iraq, iran, pakistan, afghanistan, egypt...

    well be raptured when Jesus comes Back and sends His ange;s to gather us for the judgement seating its Just a one time deal Jesus returns, all is done.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    well be raptured when Jesus comes Back and sends His ange;s to gather us for the judgement seating its Just a one time deal Jesus returns, all is done.


    Good evening FollowJesus,

    When coming to a conclusion regarding the gathering of the church, it is paramount to take into consideration all exegetical information. That said, you have two immediate problems with the above. When Jesus returns to the earth as described in Matt.24:29-31, he is returning to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Prior to His return the wrath of God will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since scripture makes it clear that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer wrath and are rescued from the coming wrath (Rom.5:9, 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10), then in order for the church to be gathered in Matt.24:30-31, it would mean that the living church of that time would go through the entire wrath of God. This is just some of that other exegetical information that needs to be taken into consideration.

    Another issue is that, when the resurrection takes place and the living believers are changed and caught up, angels do not gather us. When the Lord sends out his angels in Matt.24:31, they will be gathering those saints who come out of the great tribulation (Rev.7:9-17) who will have made it through the wrath of God and avoided being killed by the beasts kingdom. This is not the church, but those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered.

    Previously in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, John wrote letters to the seven churches. Then in Rev.7:9-17 he and the reader are introduced to a new group which no man can count. The fact that the elder is asking John who they are demonstrates that they are not the church, but a different group. Consequently, the word church is never used again after the end of chapter 3. Only the word Hagios/Saint is used and the word Ekklesia/Church is never seen again until Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is not the same event of Matthew 24:29-31. The former is the event of the gathering of the church, with the latter being the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Consequently, we will be returning with the Lord when he returns to the earth to end the age. This is demonstrated in Rev.19:11-19 where we are seen as those who are riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven.


    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by 2nicee View Post
    I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS
    The tribulation does not last seven years, for the last week of Daniel has already been fulfilled, and the rapture occurs shortly after the second coming of Jesus Christ, for the "rapture" is merely the gathering of the elect.

    The Rapture is the Gathering of the Elect at the Second Coming | Wisdom of God

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    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by christig View Post
    The tribulation does not last seven years, for the last week of Daniel has already been fulfilled, and the rapture occurs shortly after the second coming of Jesus Christ, for the "rapture" is merely the gathering of the elect.

    The Rapture is the Gathering of the Elect at the Second Coming | Wisdom of God
    Hello christig,

    First, the tribulation which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation during the entire seven years. After Christ was cut off at the end of the 69 sevens, God paused that last seven years to be fulfilled in unison with the end of the age. From the time that Jesus quoted Dan.9:27 until the destruction of the temple, none of the events mentioned in Dan.9:27 have been fulfilled. No seven year covenant with Israel has been made, no abomination has been set up and the woman of Rev.12 has not fled out into the desert where she cared for 1260 days i.e. that last 3 1/2 years.

    The gathering of the church/rapture cannot take place shortly after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age which is the second coming and that because it would put the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God and which believers are not appointed to suffer. The resurrection that takes place shortly after the second coming will involve the great tribulation saints mentioned in Rev.20:4-6, which will be those saints during the time of God's wrath who will have been beheaded because of their testimony of Christ and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Hello christig,

    First, the tribulation which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation during the entire seven years. After Christ was cut off at the end of the 69 sevens, God paused that last seven years to be fulfilled in unison with the end of the age. From the time that Jesus quoted Dan.9:27 until the destruction of the temple, none of the events mentioned in Dan.9:27 have been fulfilled. No seven year covenant with Israel has been made, no abomination has been set up and the woman of Rev.12 has not fled out into the desert where she cared for 1260 days i.e. that last 3 1/2 years.

    The gathering of the church/rapture cannot take place shortly after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age which is the second coming and that because it would put the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God and which believers are not appointed to suffer. The resurrection that takes place shortly after the second coming will involve the great tribulation saints mentioned in Rev.20:4-6, which will be those saints during the time of God's wrath who will have been beheaded because of their testimony of Christ and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.
    Why would you think that the last week of Daniel were not sequential to the 69 weeks prior to that week?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Hello ModernDayBerean,

    In order to come to a right exegetical conclusion regarding the gathering of the church, all of the information surrounding this subject must be taken into consideration, which are as follows:

    1). The status of all believers in relation to God

    When a believer comes to Christ, they are credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God (Rom.4:23, 2 Cor.5:18). To be reconciled means to go from enmity to friendship i.e. the believer is brought back into a right relationship with God. The wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer.

    2). The severity and magnitude of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

    2). It is important to study the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in order to understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. To give you an idea, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the resulting fatalities will be approximately 50% of the earths population killed within the time of God's wrath and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments. It is also important to understand who God's wrath will be directed at.

    3). Understanding the Lord's promises to the church in regards to His coming wrath

    Since every believer in Christ has been reconciled to God and has been credited with righteousness, the wrath of God no longer rests upon us. Scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, whether the coming wrath upon this earth nor the wrath as a result of condemning judgment in the lake of fire. Believer are not appointed to suffer any of it. - (Rom.5:9, 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9)

    4). Understanding that the wrath that we deserve was poured out on the Lord


    Some of the things that the Lord accomplished on our behalf was one, he met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf, he paid the penalty for every believers sins and in doing so, he also took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins. Therefore, the wrath that we deserve has been satisfied by Christ and therefore believers will not and cannot experience God's wrath.

    5). Understanding that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are separate events


    One of the major errors made regarding end-time events, is not recognizing that the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, that they are two separate events. They interpret the gathering of the church in 1 Thes.4:13-17 as being the same event of Matt.24:30-31, which they are not, but are two completely different events, with different purposes.

    6). Understanding that the Lord's return for the church as being imminent

    Scripture repeatedly makes clear that the Lord's return for the church as being imminent i.e. about to happen, on the horizon, looming, like a thief in the night, etc. He has made it known that we would not know the time of his appearing, which makes it always imminent up until the point that it takes place. That said, for those who are of the mid and post tribulation persuasion, many signs would have to take place before Christ could return to the earth, namely, all that is written in Matt.24 and the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Those two interpretations remove the immanency of the Lord's return to gather his church and more so for the post-trib group. As an example, if I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, once I saw the seals beginning to take place in chronological order, I could follow it like a road map. I would know everything that was going to take place leading up to the Lord's return. I would also know that the Lord could not return until after the 7th bowl judgment was poured out.

    7). Understanding the decree of seventy 'sevens' upon Israel in relation to end-time events


    A seventy seven year decree was pronounced upon Israel and Jerusalem, which is divided up into three parts:

    * 7 seven year periods = the restoring and rebuilding of Jerusalem

    * 62 seven year periods = The Messiah cut off at the end of the 62

    * 1 seven year period = Establishing that last seven year covenant with Israel and the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the seven years.

    The 7 sevens and the 62 sevens have been fulfilled with the Messiah being cut off/crucified at the end of 62 sevens. At that time God paused the last seven year period to be fulfilled in relation to the end of the age and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and the dead in Christ will be raised and the living will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those mansions/dwelling places that Jesus told his disciples he was going to prepare for us. Once the gathering of the church takes place, then that ruler, the antichrist, will establish his seven year covenant with Israel initiating that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy sevens. At the completion of that seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

    I hope that the above will help you come to a right conclusion based on all of the information listed.
    According to Paul the dead will rise and we who are alive will join them to meet the lord in the air. The righteous dead are with him now and will return with him at the second coming to receive their glorified bodies at the rapture

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    The Wrath of God

    As the Paul says we are not appointed to wrath. Those who are appointed are none believers. Does this mean that the rapture takes place to protect us from Gods wrath? According to those who believe this it only applies to the Churcha remnant of Israel is protected on earth according to them. The reason they argue is that the time of the Gentiles finishes and God turns his attention once more to Israel. The problem with this is that God has never stopped dealing with Israel. God has been dealing with Israel in judgement since they ignored the warning he gave in Deuteronomy and rejected their Messiah as a result. In Exodus we read that God protected the Israelites during the plagues of Egypt. None of the plagues affected Goshem where they lived and the blood on the doorposts protected them against the Angel of Death. At Jericho Rahab was protected when the City was destroyed. Both these stories are types of the tribulation. Some of Egypt's plagues are repeated in Revelation and Joshua's trumpets appear there as well. In neither story were anyone taken from the Earth to protect them from Gods wrath. At the second coming Gods judgement on Israel will end when a remnant will finally accept Christ as their Messiah. God is quite capable of protecting both Jew and gentile here on earth during the tribulation. Also if we are raptured before or mid way through the tribulation what is the point of telling us about it all if we arenot going to be there to see it, or to tell us to watch for the signs of it coming.
    Last edited by tanakh; April 24th, 2017 at 06:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    According to Paul the dead will rise and we who are alive will join them to meet the lord in the air. The righteous dead are with him now and will return with him at the second coming to receive their glorified bodies at the rapture
    So the righteous dead are currently disembodied spirits according to you? What nonsense.

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    God is quite capable of protecting both Jew and gentile here on earth during the tribulation.


    Good evening Tanakh,

    Yes, you are correct, God is quite capable of protecting both Jew and Gentile on the earth during the tribulation, which would basically require individual force fields for each believer and that because of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. But instead of protecting the church on the earth during the time of His wrath, the Lord will be removing His church, which besides all of the scriptural proof that He does just that, logically it would be more plausible to remove the church opposed to protecting it through the tribulation. Again, coming to your conclusion to protect the church during the tribulation has to do with not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's wrath. Remember, "It will be a time of great tribulation [such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again]."

    Regarding the saints mentioned throughout the narrative of God's wrath, there is nothing in scripture that states that they are protected. In fact, scripture mentions that they will be exposed to God's wrath. The only groups that are protected are the 144,000 and that from the 5th trumpet. The other is the woman/Israel who after the abomination is set up in the middle of the seven, the desolation takes place with the woman, the remnant of Israel, fleeing out into that place prepared for her by God where she is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years(Rev.12:6, 14).

    Also if we are raptured before or mid way through the tribulation what is the point of telling us about it all if we are not going to be there to see it, or to tell us to watch for the signs of it coming.


    The reason that the Lord gave us the book of Revelation is so that the believers in the church can warn unbelievers of the wrath that is coming. I personally use the information in Revelation whenever sharing Christ. Since the majority of the book of Revelation gives a detailed account of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, when we are telling people of the salvation that Christ provides, we should also be telling them what the consequences are for those without Christ. The following is what Jesus says at the end of the book of Revelation:

    "
    I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.


    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Trumps
    The word Trump comes from Trumpet. It's used to execute the command. There are 7 Trumps spoken of around the Millennium period. Naturally the last Trump the 7th Trump is the Trump of God. Many things are commanded in the Bible. Or set into action. These 7 commands given by the use of Trumps. I would like to know where the Bible mentions the use of a Trump to give a action or command elsewhere. And please don't tell me 1 Thessalonians verse 16. This is the 7th Trump given at the return of Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by christig View Post
    Why would you think that the last week of Daniel were not sequential to the 69 weeks prior to that week?
    Hello again,

    As I provided in the last post, from the time that Jesus quoted Dan.9:27 until the temple was destroyed, none of the events of the last seven years has been fulfilled. As I stated, after the Messiah was cut off/crucified, God put that last seven years on hold for a future fulfillment in relation to the end of the age. At the end of the 69 sevens the messiah was cut off and God began to build his church. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ will rise and the living will be changed and caught up. Following that, the ruler, that antichirst, will establish that last seven year covenant with Israel in fulfillment of the last seven. During that time God will will be fulfilling the decree upon Israel and Jerusalem found in Dan.9:24 and will also deal with a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with the Lord returning shortly after the 7th bowl judgment.
    VCO likes this.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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