The Rapture

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B

Burninglight

Guest
We can't just spiritualize things, it's either literal or it's spiritual.. that's what "rightly dividing the word of truth" is.
Often they are both. The physical things are just a manifestation of what goes on in the spiritual realm.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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You and VCO are carnally minded... everything in you guys views has to do with earthly things... flesh Israel, earthly Jerusalem etc. you guys can't see the spiritual things so you think I'm wacko because I can.[/QUOT


Quite the Opposite, we not only know the spiritual things, and how to tell what is spiritual, and what is physical, but what is symbolism, and what is literal. How do we know all that; we genuinely KNOW the Holy Spirit in us, who is our Teacher, and you probably will not understand this, but we have the spiritual mind of Christ in us, and WE KNOW HIM PERSONALLY.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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so

(not saying the debate is not important)

sounds like
the practical
day to day
difference is whether or not to be
a prepper.

Maybe this will help.

Luke 22:36 (ASV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.


Here is the most common weapon for defense at the time Jesus spoke these words.


Here is the most common Weapon for Defense today.


 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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113
What verse is about taking the Holy Spirit (God) out of the way? LOL, someone told you that. You didn't get it from Scripture. There is no such thing. Common sense should tell you. No one can take God out of the way!!! Read the last chapter of Daniel to know who will be taken out of the way. I agree with you, however, about the rider of the red horse not being Jesus.

You do not know me do you?


2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And you know what currently restrains ⌊him⌋, so that he will be revealed in his time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming ⌊of the lawless one⌋ is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,


Since the Wrath of GOD is going to be poured outh on the Whole World, I believe "OUT OF THE WAY" is HEAVEN. Besides I am sure the Bridegroom our LORD, will want HIM at the WEDDING IN HEAVEN.
 
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H

heartofdavid

Guest
Question for post tribs;

Do you believe when Jesus returns for the bride/rapture,he will be on a white horse?

This is huge,if you guys are expecting Jesus on a white horse.
^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
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I have been studying this out today what was said earlier about Christ returning in Rev 19 with the Church on horses with whitelinen on (so they have resurrected bodies it appears), yet the 'first' resurrection is not until Revelation 20:4 .

This is literally impossible to reconcile with the rapture being the same event as the Second Coming.
Anybody want to try debunk this because I sure can not.

So now I am confident the rapture will take place prior to the second coming, I can not see any way around it, in the premillennial scheme of things the rapture has to take place prior to the second coming as well, or there will be no mortals left to populate the millennium.

I will go sleep now its 3:50AM got to wake up soon, God bless everyone good night.
The FIRST RESURRECTION is not a Day. THERE is TWO RESURRECTIONS, THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE UNRIGHTEOUS, and there is NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE that says they all happen simultaneously. The First Resurrection spans more than a Seven Year Period, more than the 1000 Year Kingdom, and possibly on into the New Heaven and New Earth. I will give you the verses at the end, so be patient, and keep reading. It says that in the Resurrections, they will be raised in their own order. Since I absolutely Believe that Old Testament Saints (those are the ones with FAITH of ABRAHAM who BELIEVED GOD would provide a MESSIAH), therefore I Believe that places them IN MESSIAH, Jesus Christ; every bit as much as us. Also that confirms that HE SERIOUSLY MEANT IT in Mal. 3:6 when He said HE DOES NOT CHANGE. THEREFORE, I believe the FIRST ONE OUT OF THE GRAVE will be Adam or Eve, whichever one died first, followed by every one after that in the exact order that they died.

Acts 24:14-15 (NRSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our ancestors, believing everything laid down according to the law or written in the prophets.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] I have a hope in God—a hope that they themselves also accept—that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.


Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

See, (and somebody show me if I am wrong), I am sure that I never read anything that says everybody is raised at the same moment in time.

1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.


That expression "in the twinkling of an eye"; is only associated how long it takes to resurrect a body, or to change a body of the living starting at the time HE warns He is NEAR, with VERY LOUD SHOFAR TRUMPET BLASTS, followed by the ARCHANGEL going on ahead of the Bridegroom to SHOUT to call HIS BRIDE OUT. I am not seeing that HAS TO ALL HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME, and it appears we only assumed that. YES IT SAYS IT BEGINS AT THE LAST TRUMP, But now that I really think this through, I am not really seeing that it says EVERYONE WILL BE RAISED AT THE LAST TRUMP. So What is the Last Trump? In a Traditional Jewish Wedding there were three SHOFAR TRUMPET BLASTS, which is one possibility; however in the FEAST OF TRUMPETS, there were 100 Trumpet Blasts, and the Jews themselves literally called the 100th Trumpet Blast, "THE LAST TRUMP". No I do not think it has ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS.

~ Yom Teruah ~


The Feast of Trumpets is also known as Yom Teruah which literally means the “Day of Blowing”. This is the only Feast Day when the shofar is blown during the service 100 times! They are blown in a set pattern of 3 different sounds, blown 3 times each for a total of 9 blasts. This series of patterns is repeated 11 times for a total of 99 blasts. The 100th blast is set apart and this is the blast that is known as the “Last Trump”!
Rosh Hashanah
It very well may be that the LORD considers HIS Calling Out of HIS BRIDE to be fulfillment of the FEAST OF TRUMPETS, whether that is the three Trumpet Blasts of a Traditional Jewish Wedding, or the 100 Trumpet Blasts of the FEAST of TRUMPETS.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (KJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

NOTICE, in both of those portions of Scriptures there is NO MENTION of the 144,000. I think that is Clear evidence that this Happens BEFORE Revelation Chapter 7. The 144,000 are sealed from harm in their MORTAL BODIES, because GOD has chosen them to enter the 1000 Year Earthly KINGDOM in their MORTAL BODIES. EVERY Living Christian at the time when the Bridegroom is calling out HIS BRIDE, has to have their Mortal Body changed in the twinkling of an eye into a IMMORTAL BODY. If the 144,000 have their bodies changed, then they will not be having children in the 1000 Year Kingdom, because once our bodies are CHANGED, we will not be given in marriage, we will be like the angels, REMEMBER (Mat. 22:30)?

Isaiah 65:17-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] “For I will create a new heaven and a new earth; the past events will not be remembered or come to mind.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people. The sound of weeping and crying will no longer be heard in her.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] In her, a nursing infant will no longer live only a few days, or an old man not live out his days.Indeed, the youth will die at a hundred years, and the one who misses a hundred years will be cursed.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] People will build houses and live ⌊in them⌋; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They will not build and others live ⌊in them⌋; they will not plant and others eat. For My people’s lives will be like the lifetime of a tree. My chosen ones will fully enjoy the work of their hands.


THERE is the FUTURE OF THE 144,000 MORTAL ISRAELITES, who are kept MORTAL to carry on the EVERLASTING COVENANT OF GOD WITH ISRAEL, Producing NEW GENERATIONS, on into the 1000 YEAR KINGDOM of Jesus Christ, AND ON INTO THE ETERNAL STATE, OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH. SEE IT, they will be considered but a YOUTH, if they die at a HUNDRED. It does not say, but because Mal. 3:6 says GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, they too must be Resurrected. And if they die BELIEVERS, YES they too will become PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, the RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS, AN ONGOING EVENT on into the Eternal State, and NOT a moment in time.


Psalm 105:7-11 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan as your portion for an inheritance.”
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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I believe rapture happen after the antichrist reveal himself as a God

2 thesalonoans

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3
Let no man deceive you by any means:

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
tthat day/rapture shall not come except a man of sin/antichrist/tribulation be revealed
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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I believe rapture happen after the antichrist reveal himself as a God

2 thesalonoans

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3
Let no man deceive you by any means:

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
tthat day/rapture shall not come except a man of sin/antichrist/tribulation be revealed
Hello Jackson123,

I have studied this for years and I don't believe that it is saying what most people interpret it as, which is that the rebellion occurs, the man of lawless is revealed and then the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him.

Regarding this, here is a question for you.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come"

In the scripture above, Paul writes to the Thessalonians asking that them not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some teaching allegedly from them saying that "the day of the Lord has already come." What Paul is telling them would then be for the purpose of comforting them. So the question is, how could Paul's words be of comfort if he is telling them that before the church can be gathered, that first there must be a rebellion and the man of lawlessness must be revealed? That surely would not be comforting to the Thessalonians. The Thessalonians are certainly not going to write Paul back and say, "Phew! Thank you Paul for those comforting words."

I believe that the answer to this is understanding that "the day of the Lord" represents two events.

1). The Lord's appearing and the gathering of the church
2). The wrath of God

In 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul gives a detailed description of the Lord's appearing and the dead being resurrected and the living in Christ being changed and caught up. Then in 1 Thes.5:1 he says the following:

"
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates (of the gathering of the church) we do not need to write to you,for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

So, as the scripture above demonstrates, Paul refers to the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him as "the day of the Lord."

In the OT "the day of the Lord" is only known as a time of wrath and fierce anger. That said, what initiates the day of the Lord will be the appearing of the Lord and the gathering of the church, followed by the wrath part of the day of the Lord.

In the scripture above, notice that when Paul says "
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" then in verse 2 he refers to it as "the day of the Lord."

I believe that what is happening here is that Paul starts off referring to "the coming of our Lord and out being gathered to him" and then he is referring to the wrath of God part of the day of the Lord which follows the gathering. That being true, then the order of events would be:

1). The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him
2). The rebellion
3). The man of lawlessness being revealed

As I mentioned before, being that Paul was comforting the Thessalonians, telling them not to become easily unsettled or alarmed, what could be more unsettling than telling them that the rebellion must first take place and the man of lawlessness must be revealed before they can be gathered to the Lord? That makes no sense whatsoever.

In addition, this order of events would be supported by the following scripture regarding the same event:

"
Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

In the scripture above, there is "the One" also referred to as "He" who is holding back the full force of lawlessness and the man of lawlessness from being revealed until his proper time. At some point the One who is restraining will be taken out of the way and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.

Most scholars agree that, the "He" who is restraining is the Holy Spirit working through believers which make up the church. Therefore, when the restrainer, the Holy Spirit, is removed and therefore, the church with Him, so that the full force of sin can be manifest and that man of lawlessness be revealed, then the order of events would match the above as

1). the Holy Spirit being removed and the church with Him and therefore He no longer restraining
2). Then that man of lawlessness will be revealed

As I said, I don't believe that the scripture in question is saying what many claim that it is saying. I personally believe that the church will be gathered and that we will never see the man of lawlessness.

If Paul was trying to comfort the Thessalonians by telling them that before they can be gathered to the Lord, that the rebellion must first take place and the man of lawlessness must be revealed, then he did a terrible job of comforting.

 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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Exactly right Jackson....as simple as 123
Not as simple as 123. Not everything is as it appears. A deeper understanding of the this scripture and the continuation in verse 5 thru 8 needs to be taken into consideration also.

We're here to find out the truth of God's word and not to just settle for the popular, repeated interpretation.

See post #4150
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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Why would it be to comfort them?

Someone writes a fake letter purporting to be from Paul and Timothy: It says Jesus is returning next month.

The Church in Thessalonica will be ecstatic.

Everyone will down tools, gather somewhere, pray, rejoice and commune.

A month later the day passes and everyone then is destroyed. Paul is a liar!! Christianity is a hoax!! Or worse,
the Church has been gathered and we've been left behind.

It is not to "comfort" them, it is to protect them from deception, and all that that entails.
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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Why would it be to comfort them?

Someone writes a fake letter purporting to be from Paul and Timothy: It says Jesus is returning next month.

The Church in Thessalonica will be ecstatic.

Everyone will down tools, gather somewhere, pray, rejoice and commune.

A month later the day passes and everyone then is destroyed. Paul is a liar!! Christianity is a hoax!!

It is not to "comfort" them, it is to protect them from deception, and all that that entails.
I don't believe that Paul was speaking about the gathering part of the day of the Lord, but of the wrath that is to follow the gathering of the church.

The church will never see the man of lawlessness. He is symbolic of the first seal being opened, which is what initiates that last seven years, the wrath of God. Since we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened, which again is representing that man of lawlessness, the antichrist.

By the way, I said that, it would not be comforting for Paul to tell the Thessalonians that before they can be gathered, that the rebellion must first take place and then the man of lawlessness will revealed.
 

J7

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Which is correct here?

KJV - 'at hand'

or NIV

'is already here'
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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Which is correct here?

KJV - 'at hand'

or NIV

'is already here'
The majority of translations has it "has come," some have "has begun." Here is the definition of the word:

================================================

Strong's Concordance
enistémi: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present
Original Word: ἐνίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: enistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (en-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I place in or upon, am at hand, am present, threaten
Definition: I place in or upon; only in the intrans. tenses: I impend, am at hand, am present, threaten; as adj: present.NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from en and histémi
Definition
to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present
NASB Translation
come (2), present (3), things present (2).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1764: ἐνεστως

ἐνεστως, see ἐνίστημι.STRONGS NT 1764: ἐνίστημιἐνίστημι: perfect ἐνέστηκα, participle ἐνεστηκώς (Hebrews 9:9), and by syncope ἐνεστως; future middle ἐνστήσομαι; to place in or among; to put in; in perfect, pluperfect, 2 aorist, and in middle (properly, as it were to stand in sight, stand near) to be upon, impend, threaten: 2 Thessalonians 2:2; future middle 2 Timothy 3:1. perfect participle close at hand, 1 Corinthians 7:26; as often in Greek writings (in the grammarians ἐνεστως namely, χρόνος is the present tense (cf. Philo de plant. Noë § 27 τριμερης χρόνος, ὅς εἰς τόνπαρεληλυθότα καί ἐνεστῶτα καί μέλλοντατέμνεσθαι πέφυκεν)), present: καιρός ἐνεστως, Hebrews 9:9; τά ἐνεστῶτα opposed to τά μέλλοντα, Romans 8:38; 1 Corinthians 3:22; ἐνεστως αἰών πονηρός in tacit contrast with τῷ μέλλοντι αἰῶνι, Galatians 1:4 (Basil., epistle 57 ad Melet (iii., p. 151 c., Benedict. edition) ὠφέλιμα διδαγματα ἐφοδια πρός τέ τόν ἐνεστῶτα αἰῶνα καί τόνμέλλοντα). (Many (so R. V.) would adopt the meaning present in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 and 1 Corinthians 7:26 also; but cf. Meyer on
 

J7

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Yes, but I think the KJV is correct:

"(close) at hand"

Paul writes regarding

"our being gathered together"

It makes no sense to write about the gathering of the Church if Jesus has already come back.



  1. [*=left]to place in or among, to put in

    [*=left]to be upon, impend, threaten

    [*=left]close at hand

    [*=left]present
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Hello Jackson123,

I have studied this for years and I don't believe that it is saying what most people interpret it as, which is that the rebellion occurs, the man of lawless is revealed and then the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him.

Regarding this, here is a question for you.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come"

In the scripture above, Paul writes to the Thessalonians asking that them not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some teaching allegedly from them saying that "the day of the Lord has already come." What Paul is telling them would then be for the purpose of comforting them. So the question is, how could Paul's words be of comfort if he is telling them that before the church can be gathered, that first there must be a rebellion and the man of lawlessness must be revealed? That surely would not be comforting to the Thessalonians. The Thessalonians are certainly not going to write Paul back and say, "Phew! Thank you Paul for those comforting words."
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 KJV
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul just showed you WHEN the day the Lord takes place and that that day IS NOT the day of Christ.

"That ye be not SOON SHAKEN in mind".... what SOON event was about to take place in Israel? What was next on Israel's calendar? What MAJOR EVENT was about to shake their mind?

The destruction of earthly Jerusalem - the day of the LORD, not the day of CHRIST.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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The NIV and NRSV are completely wrong here.

The KJV says 'at hand'. This has to be correct.

If it was already past, Paul would just say:

"you know that every eye sees Christ return, so if you did not see him, he cannot yet have returned'

UGH..

KJV 15 NIV 0
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
The NIV and NRSV are completely wrong here.

The KJV says 'at hand'. This has to be correct.

If it was already past, Paul would just say:

"you know that every eye sees Christ return, so if you did not see him, he cannot yet have returned'

UGH..

KJV 15 NIV 0
KJV 16 NIV 0

2 Thessalonians 2:2King James Version (KJV)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:2New International Version (NIV)

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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If you were a crafty Antichrist spirit, and you wanted to throw the Thessalonican Church into confusion, would you really write a fake epistle from Paul saying Christ had returned already?

No way. The Church would read it and say, well if Paul has been raptured, why he is still writing letters? Let him come and visit us.

They would throw it out.

Everything in the text points to a confusion being created by suggesting an imminent return of the Lord, contrary to what Paul had previously taught them.