The Rapture

[KJV1611]

You spiritualized the 1000 years. The only place that the 1 day = 1,000 years with God principle isn't found until 2 Peter 3. God spoke to Adam how many years before this? Did Adam know this principle? Moses records the event how many years before Peter? Did all those generations between Moses and Peter know this principle? Besides, that principle only applies to God, it does not apply to man.

You have to understand the bigger meaning of what "eating of that tree" meant. It was far more than simple disobedience. It was violation of the 1st (and most important) commandment, the same commandment the religious leaders of Christ's day were violating which led to their destruction as well.

From the day Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden until they die, does God ever appear to them again? God appeared to Cain, but does He ever walk with Adam and Eve again during the remaining 900+ years of their lives?

A day = 1000 years has been true since day 1 of creation, not just from when it was mentioned 2 Peter lol. It was mentioned way before Peter anyway in the Pslams.

Psalm 90:4 KJV
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is akin to reaching the age of accountablility. They were pure and innocent because they didn't know what good and evil was even though the were most likely doing some evil things before eating.

This is all for another thread lol.

 

[KJV1611]

Hello Jackson123,



[/COLOR]The major problem with that interpretation is that, it would mean that the living church would have to go through the entire wrath of God, which scripture tells us that we are not appointed to suffer and that Jesus rescues all believers from the wrath of God. Therefore, the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath which begins with the opening of the first seal judgment.

Also, Matt.24:29-31 is not a rapture, but the angels that the Lord sends out will be gathering people will have made it through that entire seven years of tribulation who will still be in their mortal bodies. They will be gathering the weeds first and then the wheat.

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The tribulation of those days started BEFORE the day of the Lord came.

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Sequence: Great tribulation, sun darkened, moon not giving light, stars fallng from heaven and THEN the day of the Lord.

 

[Jackson123]

Hello Jackson123,



[/COLOR]The major problem with that interpretation is that, it would mean that the living church would have to go through the entire wrath of God, which scripture tells us that we are not appointed to suffer and that Jesus rescues all believers from the wrath of God. Therefore, the church must be gathered prior to God's wrath which begins with the opening of the first seal judgment.

Also, Matt.24:29-31 is not a rapture, but the angels that the Lord sends out will be gathering people will have made it through that entire seven years of tribulation who will still be in their mortal bodies. They will be gathering the weeds first and then the wheat.

I believe tribulation is not wrath of God. It is wrath of the devil. Persecution to Christian always happen through the history of Christianity, from the early Christian till now, happen in the Middle East, china, North Korea etc

Than God will wrath and kill the beast with his breath

2 thesalonians 2:8

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New International Version​

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.


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I do not know why matt 24 not rapture. It say gathering together, and it doesn't say 7 years, it say happen immediately after tribulation, it is not happen during the tribulation

 

[KJV1611]

The day of the Lord was in AD 70, that puts the great tribulation pre-AD70. Why are you guys looking for the great tribulation 7 years before the return of Christ.

 

[J7]

Re Adam:

It is a matter of how we construe death.

Adam had an immortal body. He brought death to it, so that it became mortal.

So if death = 'cease to be immortal'


then we can say Adam died that day.

This may sound contrived, but really it is the basis of all the Bible.
Man going from immortal flesh, to perishable flesh, and then through Christ, back to imperishable matter.
(Which is Salvation - we are saved from our mortal condition)

 

[Jackson123]

The day of the Lord was in AD 70, that puts the great tribulation pre-AD70. Why are you guys looking for the great tribulation 7 years before the return of Christ.

so the tribulation happen after or before the day of the Lord?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Your error is the same in that, you are not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being to separate events. Once you view them as being the same event your interpretation of end-time events will always be wrong.

As I continue to point out from scripture, if the church was to be gathered in Matt.24:29-31, it would put the church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.

Understand then that, the gathering of the church is a separate event with a different purpose vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

You would also have to explain how the church can be gathered at the time when the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age, when the church is seen following the Lord out of heaven on white horses. In order for the church to follow Christ out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

Also, Matt.24:31 is not a gathering of the church by the angels. But they will be gathering those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire seven years. These along with the survivors of Israel are those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

 

[KJV1611]

so the tribulation happen after or before the day of the Lord?

Yes
1) Great tribulation.
2) Sun and moon go dark.
3) The day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days (Great Tribulation) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (sun and moon dark and stars fall), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood (<----- before), before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

1) Great tribulation.
2) Sun and moon go dark.
3) The day of the Lord.

 

[Bogadile]

I am seeing this. The reason why people place the return of the Lord straight after the tribulation is because if the book of Revelation is read with its plain meaning and literally, it will be such a terrible list of events that only the Lord can come back and restore the earth at that point.

One thing that got me to completely reconsider my position of amillennialism was the before mentioned Rev 19&Rev20 and Dan 7:27 and Rev 11:5 which clearly mention an earthly reign.

Now it is just a matter of finding my location on the "Prophetic calendar" so to speak. Great thread this is.

 

[KJV1611]

I am seeing this. The reason why people place the return of the Lord straight after the tribulation is because if the book of Revelation is read with its plain meaning and literally, it will be such a terrible list of events that only the Lord can come back and restore the earth at that point.

One thing that got me to completely reconsider my position of amillennialism was the before mentioned Rev 19&Rev20 and Dan 7:27 and Rev 11:5 which clearly mention an earthly reign.

Now it is just a matter of finding my location on the "Prophetic calendar" so to speak. Great thread this is.

Amen Bog! This is, bar none, the best thread I have ever seen.

Edit: I have been looking at Rev 9 and will continue, but I have no understanding of it yet.

 

[PlainWord]

The earth remaining does not prove sin and death remains, earth was cleansed by water and will be by fire again in the future. Thanks for the reply but I will never go this far into spiritualizing where even death itself is merely spiritual.
Jesus conquered physical death, had a physical resurrection, and the earth will physically be great again. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

You are a smart guy I hope you reconsider this, do not go full gnostic where nothing is physical. Jesus says meek shall inherit the earth. Btw part of the curse was physical pain and labour

Can you tell me how this earth age ends?

I am not a gnostic. Why would you ever say that? The Bible (OT and NT) is filled with colorful, figurative language. That's how they spoke and it's exactly how we speak too. We just use different figurative expressions. If you don't learn and understand how they spoke and fast, you are going to wind up like VCO and AHW. It isn't spiritualizing to understand figurative language, it's rightly dividing.

Let's discuss Isaiah 11:6-9 since you quoted it presumably as proof of your new restored peaceful world. I assume you think this is the millennium? You couldn't be more wrong. Look at the verses before and after.

vs 1: There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

vs 10: “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

Both verses are future tense to Isaiah, not us. Who is the Root of Jesse and when did He come? Please continue.

vs 11-12: It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah

When was the first scattering and recovering? When was the second?

vs 13-14: Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; Together they shall plunder the people of the East; They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab; And the people of Ammon shall obey them.

Well, the Philistines disappeared by the late 5th century BC. Moab disappears during the Persian period as further described in Isa 16. Edom was destroyed in the 6th century. Basically all the ancient enemies of Israel were removed as threats by the time Israel was restored after the Babylonian exile.

You have to learn your time line. Isaiah was an 8th century BC prophet who died in 698 BC. He wrote primarily of the upcoming Babylonian conquest, the consequence of Israel's disobedience. King Neb laid siege to Jerusalem in 597 BC, just over 100 years prior to all of Isaiah's warnings.

Therefore, taken in context, the wolf laying with the lamb symbolism etc. (which is repeated in Isa 65) simply means a period of peace and prosperity. Judea just returned from Babylonian captivity. They needed time of peace to rebuild (even in troublesome times) without war. God gave it to them just as He did in Isa 65 after they were wiped out in 70 AD which the preceding chapters discuss.

Please learn to understand how they talked and their use of figurative language and it will help you go a long way in sorting this stuff out.

 

[J7]

How can you quote Matthew and tell him he is in error????

The Arrogance. (or sheer desperation)

Are all the gospel writers in error now?

Your error is the same in that, you are not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being to separate events. Once you view them as being the same event your interpretation of end-time events will always be wrong.

As I continue to point out from scripture, if the church was to be gathered in Matt.24:29-31, it would put the church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.

Understand then that, the gathering of the church is a separate event with a different purpose vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

You would also have to explain how the church can be gathered at the time when the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age, when the church is seen following the Lord out of heaven on white horses. In order for the church to follow Christ out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

Also, Matt.24:31 is not a gathering of the church by the angels. But they will be gathering those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire seven years. These along with the survivors of Israel are those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

 

[Jackson123]

Your error is the same in that, you are not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being to separate events. Once you view them as being the same event your interpretation of end-time events will always be wrong.

As I continue to point out from scripture, if the church was to be gathered in Matt.24:29-31, it would put the church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.

Understand then that, the gathering of the church is a separate event with a different purpose vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

You would also have to explain how the church can be gathered at the time when the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age, when the church is seen following the Lord out of heaven on white horses. In order for the church to follow Christ out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

Also, Matt.24:31 is not a gathering of the church by the angels. But they will be gathering those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire seven years. These along with the survivors of Israel are those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

lets back to 2 thesalonians
on verse 1 indicate that Paul talking about both second coming and rapture

so both of them happen after tribulation.





2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


you you state in your post above that the angel will gather the tribulation saint

1. that is mean you believe saint go to tribulation, not rapture before

2. How do you know that it is not gathering church? What is church?
church is gathering of saint.
so if you believe angel gathering saint, mean angel gathering church

 

[Bogadile]

Dear PlainWord.

I understand that some language is figurative. But if this truly is only figurative that the earth will be restored to a peaceful state, while in reality it will remain the dump that it is now. Is that not very deceptive of the prophets and God? To let us wait for peace, end of sin suffering and death, while in reality all we get is a bunch of church buildings with strife.

If a lion is not eating other animals anymore, I take it that it means more than no wars for a couple of years. By that logic Finland has been in a restored paradise since 1945 (the last time we were at war).
Yet people still suffer and die here.

I do not know man, this just feels so empty what you are saying, like this is all it is ever going to be, like God is not capable of fixing things or something, sounds pretty incompetent, how can you be happy with things being this way?

 

[J7]

I am seeing this. The reason why people place the return of the Lord straight after the tribulation is because if the book of Revelation is read with its plain meaning and literally, it will be such a terrible list of events that only the Lord can come back and restore the earth at that point.

One thing that got me to completely reconsider my position of amillennialism was the before mentioned Rev 19&Rev20 and Dan 7:27 and Rev 11:5 which clearly mention an earthly reign.

Now it is just a matter of finding my location on the "Prophetic calendar" so to speak. Great thread this is.

Nope. The reason they place the Lord's return straight after the tribulation is because that is how
they read Matthew 24:29-31

 

[PlainWord]

A day = 1000 years has been true since day 1 of creation, not just from when it was mentioned 2 Peter lol. It was mentioned way before Peter anyway in the Pslams.

Psalm 90:4 KJV
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is akin to reaching the age of accountablility. They were pure and innocent because they didn't know what good and evil was even though the were most likely doing some evil things before eating.

This is all for another thread lol.

LOL. I forgot the Psa reference. Touche!! But that doesn't prove your point. I submit Jesus was the tree of life and Satan the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Note they were not created with the other trees but were already in the Garden.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But, let's save this topic for another day as it's way off track for this thread.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes
1) Great tribulation.
2) Sun and moon go dark.
3) The day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days (Great Tribulation) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (sun and moon dark and stars fall), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood (<----- before), before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

1) Great tribulation.
2) Sun and moon go dark.
3) The day of the Lord.

So you believe it happen in AD 70, can you provide with documentation that in AD 70 the sun and moon go dark?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Nope. The reason they place the Lord's return straight after the tribulation is because that is how
they read Matthew 24:29-31

As I said, the problem is that you and others are not recognizing that the gathering and the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events. As long as you continue to do that you will arrive at a wrong interpretation.

 

[KJV1611]

lets back to 2 thesalonians
on verse 1 indicate that Paul talking about both second coming and rapture

so both of them happen after tribulation.





2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


you you state in your post above that the angel will gather the tribulation saint

1. that is mean you believe saint go to tribulation, not rapture before

2. How do you know that it is not gathering church? What is church?
church is gathering of saint.
so if you believe angel gathering saint, mean angel gathering church

The day of Christ and the day of the Lord ARE NOT the same events.

The day of Christ is our blessed hope when the Lord returns.
The day of the Lord is a day of darkness with NO LIGHT in it, only misery and destruction.

Paul is saying... something is coming on you SOON, don't be shaken by it's severity, the thing that's coming IS NOT the return of Christ.

 

[J7]

As I said, the problem is that you and others are not recognizing that the gathering and the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events. As long as you continue to do that you will arrive at a wrong interpretation.

Show me. 1 verse.