The Rapture
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29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The rapture is post-trib. Read it and weep.
Is there an error in the translation?
.....(no).....
Do we have a problem understanding basic English language syntax and semantics?
........(no).........
So therefore the rapture clearly, unequivocally, and indubitably comes after the tribulation. Why is there an argument about this?
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The rapture is post-trib. Read it and weep.
Is there an error in the translation?
.....(no).....
Do we have a problem understanding basic English language syntax and semantics?
........(no).........
So therefore the rapture clearly, unequivocally, and indubitably comes after the tribulation. Why is there an argument about this?
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I think the debate boils down to the fact that Christians are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
The pre-wrath camp says the seals are not God's wrath and that it does not start until the vials (or trumpets).
The pre-trib camp says they are God's wrath (because the Lamb opens the seals) and therefore the gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the survivors of God's wrath and is a separate event from the rapture.
The pre-wrath camp says the seals are not God's wrath and that it does not start until the vials (or trumpets).
The pre-trib camp says they are God's wrath (because the Lamb opens the seals) and therefore the gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the survivors of God's wrath and is a separate event from the rapture.
I am going to repeat what I post.
Paul wrote to thesalonian not to Christian that accept Jesus during the seven years tribulation.
he say, you (Christian before tribulation) will not see rapture and second coming before antichrist being reveal.
for sure thesalonians is Christian before 7 years tribulation.
Paul wrote to thesalonian not to Christian that accept Jesus during the seven years tribulation.
he say, you (Christian before tribulation) will not see rapture and second coming before antichrist being reveal.
for sure thesalonians is Christian before 7 years tribulation.
The question is whether Christian go to tribulation or not
not whether Christian suffer God wrath
Pre trib believe tribulation mean wrath of God
Base on rev 13, tribulation is persecution for those not accept mark of the beast, so it is wrath of the devil
and Paul say yes antichrist before rapture
Pretrib say only the Christian that accept Jesus during 7 years trib go to tribulation/ wrath of God
this is inconsistence.
You believe wrath of God not for Christian. I agree.
than you believe Christian after trib will experience wrath of God
you say trib = wrath of God = not for christian
Then you say trib= wrath of God = for new Christian
new christian = Christian = not appointed for wrath of God
even if persecution and wrath of God happen in the same time, God able to protect the saint from wrath of God
Noah not being rapture during wrath of God. But God protect him. Israel not being rapture when wrath of God targeting agypt, but God able to protect them
not whether Christian suffer God wrath
Pre trib believe tribulation mean wrath of God
Base on rev 13, tribulation is persecution for those not accept mark of the beast, so it is wrath of the devil
and Paul say yes antichrist before rapture
Pretrib say only the Christian that accept Jesus during 7 years trib go to tribulation/ wrath of God
this is inconsistence.
You believe wrath of God not for Christian. I agree.
than you believe Christian after trib will experience wrath of God
you say trib = wrath of God = not for christian
Then you say trib= wrath of God = for new Christian
new christian = Christian = not appointed for wrath of God
even if persecution and wrath of God happen in the same time, God able to protect the saint from wrath of God
Noah not being rapture during wrath of God. But God protect him. Israel not being rapture when wrath of God targeting agypt, but God able to protect them
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We are not appointed to wrath. No. 100% agree.
The Wrath starts with the 6th seal:
[FONT="]12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?[/FONT]
The Wrath starts with the 6th seal:
[FONT="]12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?[/FONT]
lol,That is actually I think the best way to try to understand it and why I said it sveral pages back.
We watch each other post in threads and access based on the things we say the position we(screen names) hold to based on our understanding but the no brainer approach is to look at the ,"position Jesus holds on the matter of post trib.", (in those verses you gave). Past that if we don’t see it the same as he did we don’t understand something not him(Jesus).
The only way past that anything would be different is in the fact that he was found "worthy" to loose the seals "after he was slain" Revelation 5:9-12 (so in Matt,Mark and Luke the Rev. it was still sealed so not mentioned). But the position Jesus holds in Matthew in regards to Post/Pre. trib. is a "Post tribulation gathering".
So whose correct? Well anyone pre trib would separate things into groups, one set of things spoken to one group(the 12) and another group pre trib(BOC) and say there’s more than the two resurrections in Rev. 20. But in Thessalonian's the rapture is after the first resurrection 1 Thessalonian 4:15 (so the first resurrection is at Jesus return,then the first resurrection and then the catching up(rapture) 1 Thessalonians 4:15 According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. and is why I think Paul points out this "order of events" as they would unfold.
B
What, detained in some facility and I agree with you? Paul not only said don't be deceived because the AC must be revealed, the rest of Scripture says he will wear out the saints of the most high and destroy them wonderfully and think to change the times and the laws and they'll be given into his hands for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years). So you see I don't agree with you; I agree with Scripture; also, Jesus disagrees with you: He said, "if they tell you he is in a secret chamber (facility) don't believe it....!"
This is the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints (and after the Tribulation). Not the Rapture which is FOR His saints (before the Tribulation). How can Christ come with His saints if He had not already come for His saints? The "elect" here are the believing Jewish remnant, not the Church. After the second coming of Christ, God will gather all the Jews to Israel, and they will all see Jesus and mourn and repent and be converted.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26).
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26).
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This is indeed an interesting juxtaposition. Given the same writings, the same God, and the same Holy Spirit, we have come up with all these different scenarios:
1 It all happened in 70 AD and is no longer of concern for us
2 Prophecy was fulfilled in 70 ad but will be again in the future
3 All prophecies point to the future, but :
4 We are caught up before any of the future events take place
5 We are caught up in the middle of these future events
6 We are caught up after all of these future events play out
7 Once caught up we return to this world to rule for 1000 years
8 Once caught up we see this world destroyed and a new one take it's place
9 We are at this moment on the new earth under the rule of Christ
Oy vey!
1 It all happened in 70 AD and is no longer of concern for us
2 Prophecy was fulfilled in 70 ad but will be again in the future
3 All prophecies point to the future, but :
4 We are caught up before any of the future events take place
5 We are caught up in the middle of these future events
6 We are caught up after all of these future events play out
7 Once caught up we return to this world to rule for 1000 years
8 Once caught up we see this world destroyed and a new one take it's place
9 We are at this moment on the new earth under the rule of Christ
Oy vey!
Ponder
Pretrib
christian Will not experience God wrath
tribulation is God wrath
christian rapture before trib
Post trib ask:
who go to Prison and kill because refused mark of the beast?
Pre trib answewred
Christian
post trib ask
don't you say Christian not Apionted to God wrath
pre trib answered
that is christen that accept Jesus after trib
post trib
but they are Christian too, why Don't God take them AS son AS they repent
don't you say trib is wrath and Christian not apointed to wrath of God?
Pretrib
christian Will not experience God wrath
tribulation is God wrath
christian rapture before trib
Post trib ask:
who go to Prison and kill because refused mark of the beast?
Pre trib answewred
Christian
post trib ask
don't you say Christian not Apionted to God wrath
pre trib answered
that is christen that accept Jesus after trib
post trib
but they are Christian too, why Don't God take them AS son AS they repent
don't you say trib is wrath and Christian not apointed to wrath of God?
The book of Revelation is written in 96-98AD says my Bible notes, wikipedia and many websites including Christian courier and the early church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Victorinus and such.
Link: http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
I think those early church Fathers are pretty reliable since they were closer to the events than we on the dating, but honestly WHO knows, it is just what my Bible note said
Link: http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
I think those early church Fathers are pretty reliable since they were closer to the events than we on the dating, but honestly WHO knows, it is just what my Bible note said
On the pre-70 AD side, these arguments are pretty compelling:
1. The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here.
2. The second century Syrian version of the book has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.
3. According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD as most had returned to Jerusalem for Passover of 70 AD and were trapped in the city where 93% of them were killed. After this, the Jews were taken to Rome, enslaved with many killed in the games. Some survived and were scattered.
4. The temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening! A future temple some 2 thousand years into the future argues against the "quickness" or "soon" language contained throughout.
5. There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the real apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time. For these false apostles to be around making these claims in 96 AD and to have been of age (20 or so) during Christ, they would have been as old, if not older than John, well into their 80s.
6. I already made my point about the heads or kings which fits my view perfectly.
7. What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This would be completely ridiculous. This implies that the beast was living at the time of this writing making this command possible for the intended audience.
8. In Revelation there seems to be only 7 churches in Asia Minor (Turkey). Historically, there seems to be many more than that by 96 AD as Christianity began to grow very rapidly as the destruction of Jerusalem and the old way would have been a very compelling event for the correctness of Christianity.
9. The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.
10. Those 1-2 early Christians who give Revelation a 96 AD timing, had every reason to date it after 70 AD since they were still living under harsh Roman rule and did not see the need to identify Rome as the Beast who destroyed Jerusalem.
I could go on but the point is, the dating of Revelation is far from a settled issue.
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