It is spiritually and theologically impossible that a trumpet which pronounces God's wrath can also be pronouncing God's salvation! The 7th trumpet of Revelation (as I already explained in another thread) has absolutely nothing in common with "the trump of God" (called the last trump). Also, the New Jerusalem (as you stated) descends from Heaven after the New Heavens and the New Earth are established. But it does not descend to earth. It simply hovers over the earth (probably in orbit) as a heavenly body giving light to the earth (Rev 21:24). At the same time, there is some kind of supernatural travel between the two entities (Rev 21:26).
The Rapture
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well, do you believe the Bible? The Lamb and the Bride are married in Rev 19.8-9 and again in Rev 21.2, 9. So bang goes the so-called millennium unless of course He has two wives. 
2. Since the Church is the Bride of Christ which eventually becomes the Lamb's Wife, what relevance does that have to the Millennium?
So now who is believing the Bible and who is not?
well, do you believe the Bible? The Lamb and the Bride are married in Rev 19.8-9 and again in Rev 21.2, 9. So bang goes the so-called millennium unless of course He has two wives.
Rev.19:6-8 is where the wedding of the Lamb takes place, which is in heaven during the time of God's wrath upon the earth.
Where Rev.21:1-2 is in reference to the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven "as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband," which is referring to the beauty of the city and the bride/Church who will dwell in it.
In short, Rev.21:1-2 is not when the wedding of the Lamb takes place, but will have taken place at least a thousand years earlier.
The church is that army following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing her fine linen, white and clean. During the millennium all who are victorious in the church will reign with Christ in positions of authority just as was promised in the letter to Thyatira.
As Nehemiah6 pointed out, your reference to the wedding of the Lamb and the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven after the millennium, does not negate the thousand years as being literal. It is irrelevant. You're grasping at straws my friend.
* The wedding of the Lamb takes place in heaven during the time of God's wrath
* After God's wrath the Lord returns to the earth and the church with him to end the age
* The Beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire
* Satan and his angels are thrown into the Abyss an remain there during the thousand years
*The Millennial period begins with Jesus ruling from Israel under the throne of king David
* At the end of the millennium Satan is released from the Abyss for one last rebellion
* Satan and his angels are throne into the lake of fire
* Great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead takes place
* This Current heaven and earth pass away
* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
* Eternity ............................................................>
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well, do you believe the Bible? The Lamb and the Bride are married in Rev 19.8-9 and again in Rev 21.2, 9. So bang goes the so-called millennium unless of course He has two wives.
As one can see, this is an idiom pertaining to the New Jerusalem
In Rev 19:8-9 ...."8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."
I don't really think you understand the Bride/Groom scenario? The Church is the Bride and Jesus Comes back to get her... It is the Rapture.......Read upon the Jewish Wedding, It might help you understand , that is if you really want to.
Looks like another scholar just got whipped by regular joes!
Rev 21:2 says as many have pointed out "prepared AS" and in Revelation 19:8-9 is the actual marriage supper.
valiant do ya got some theology decree or other doctorates? Because they aint done much if you do K.O! I dont mean no disrespect but its almost like you got a vendetta against every single point of view some here hold, and whatever we say is wrong even if its clearly in the bible you just gotta say that it aint right and make these weird claims about two suppers and stuff.
Remember when Jesus said a tribulation such as the world has never seen NOR WILL SEE AGAIN, and you made the comment that "the tribulation has been going on since the 1st century"
Which bible pundit did ya learn that from? Maybe its time to skip the commentaries of those reformation fellas and stick with what the bible is actually saying.
Rev 21:2 says as many have pointed out "prepared AS" and in Revelation 19:8-9 is the actual marriage supper.
valiant do ya got some theology decree or other doctorates? Because they aint done much if you do
K.O! I dont mean no disrespect but its almost like you got a vendetta against every single point of view some here hold, and whatever we say is wrong even if its clearly in the bible you just gotta say that it aint right and make these weird claims about two suppers and stuff.Remember when Jesus said a tribulation such as the world has never seen NOR WILL SEE AGAIN, and you made the comment that "the tribulation has been going on since the 1st century"
Which bible pundit did ya learn that from? Maybe its time to skip the commentaries of those reformation fellas and stick with what the bible is actually saying.
Ahwatukee
Hello Brother, thanks for your response
Can i suggest the coming wrath...came in ad70?
What you are not understanding is 1) the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and 2).
What if that was experienced by those in Jerusalem in 70ad? Jesus and Paul warned them...
Agreed my friend...isn't that so great a salvation ...we have a great high priest who is eternal in the heavens!
That is true for all believers...amen...
I agree but more about the great White throne judgment
I was taught and have taught the view you hold now....however...if you re-read the passages as if they were written to those alive in the first century as warnings to flee to Christ savingly, it changes your view.
In other words....these were written right before that fierce judgment for israels Covenant breaking...ie, the Covenant breaking curses promised in Deut 28-33 came upon first century Israel as the rejected Jesus as the messiah...The SERVANT OF THE LORD....FROM ISA.49-54
..Jesus warned them from matthew 20-25....Mt 21:43 was the pinnacle ;
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Correct..we do not go into second death....however the church will be here until the last day....
Hello Brother, thanks for your response
Can i suggest the coming wrath...came in ad70?
What you are not understanding is 1) the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and 2).
What if that was experienced by those in Jerusalem in 70ad? Jesus and Paul warned them...
Agreed my friend...isn't that so great a salvation ...we have a great high priest who is eternal in the heavens!
That is true for all believers...amen...
I agree but more about the great White throne judgment
I was taught and have taught the view you hold now....however...if you re-read the passages as if they were written to those alive in the first century as warnings to flee to Christ savingly, it changes your view.
In other words....these were written right before that fierce judgment for israels Covenant breaking...ie, the Covenant breaking curses promised in Deut 28-33 came upon first century Israel as the rejected Jesus as the messiah...The SERVANT OF THE LORD....FROM ISA.49-54
..Jesus warned them from matthew 20-25....Mt 21:43 was the pinnacle ;
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Correct..we do not go into second death....however the church will be here until the last day....
...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years...and he shall rule them with a rod of iron... And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
How can these saints "reign WITH Him" if Christ is not actually reigning on earth? And the Millennium is only the beginning of Christ's eternal reign on earth. Whether Christ will be strictly on earth, or will move between Heaven and earth is not the issue. We know He will delegate His authority to David and the 12 apostles of the Lamb, and we also know He will delegate authority to His faithful servants who are kings and priests for ever.
How can these saints "reign WITH Him" if Christ is not actually reigning on earth? And the Millennium is only the beginning of Christ's eternal reign on earth. Whether Christ will be strictly on earth, or will move between Heaven and earth is not the issue. We know He will delegate His authority to David and the 12 apostles of the Lamb, and we also know He will delegate authority to His faithful servants who are kings and priests for ever.
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It says the city comens down from heaven and the Lamb is there;
Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.
Revelation 21:22-23, “And I saw no Dwelling Place in it, for יהוה Strength Almighty is its Dwelling Place, and the Lamb."And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it, for the esteem of Yah lightened it, and the Lamb is its lamp.”
Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.
Revelation 21:22-23, “And I saw no Dwelling Place in it, for יהוה Strength Almighty is its Dwelling Place, and the Lamb."And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it, for the esteem of Yah lightened it, and the Lamb is its lamp.”
I reiterate there are 4 seperate views of eschatology (views of prophetic future). One and the most popular is Biblically incorrect having 2 raptures. The other three are Biblically correct. The problem is they are mutually exclusive. Only one can possibly be correct and maybe none. This back and forth discussion leads nowhere since Revelation is still a closed book. The symbology will be apparent after the fact. I notice that no one refers to the three different Biblical views of eschatology. Why is that?? Everybody just quotes specific verses out of context. That proves Nothing.
The four main eschatological systems are as follows: dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism. Please realize that though these views differ significantly on the topic at hand, the Christians who disagree on these matters agree with each other on probably ninety percent of the rest of the Christian life.
The following web site discusses these views. Before shooting your mouths off go and look at the 4 main eschatologyical views theologians have developed over the centuries. Then fit your posts into one of them. Revelation is very difficult to understand. As an elder in conservative Calvinist Churches I was in class and discussions for elders for this subject. Like I stated earlier it is clear as mud since theologians are unable to settle for just 1 version.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
The four main eschatological systems are as follows: dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism. Please realize that though these views differ significantly on the topic at hand, the Christians who disagree on these matters agree with each other on probably ninety percent of the rest of the Christian life.
The following web site discusses these views. Before shooting your mouths off go and look at the 4 main eschatologyical views theologians have developed over the centuries. Then fit your posts into one of them. Revelation is very difficult to understand. As an elder in conservative Calvinist Churches I was in class and discussions for elders for this subject. Like I stated earlier it is clear as mud since theologians are unable to settle for just 1 version.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
I am familair with all 4. The only one I think is anti-biblical completely is the post-millennial view, it is the only one I see zero chance of happening, because the Bible specifically mentions an apostasy before Jesus returns.
The other views are all possible, time will tell! I want to add one more view: The pan-milennialism which means whatever pans out works for me
The other views are all possible, time will tell! I want to add one more view: The pan-milennialism which means whatever pans out works for me
I am familair with all 4. The only one I think is anti-biblical completely is the post-millennial view, it is the only one I see zero chance of happening, because the Bible specifically mentions an apostasy before Jesus returns.
The other views are all possible, time will tell! I want to add one more view: The pan-milennialism which means whatever pans out works for me
The other views are all possible, time will tell! I want to add one more view: The pan-milennialism which means whatever pans out works for me
I am familair with all 4. The only one I think is anti-biblical completely is the post-millennial view, it is the only one I see zero chance of happening, because the Bible specifically mentions an apostasy before Jesus returns.
The other views are all possible, time will tell! I want to add one more view: The pan-milennialism which means whatever pans out works for me
Aint that the truth...Jah will do what Jah will do.
Just a question to you all ;
What is this thing about "the church" ???
Like... "the church" will be raptured before or mid or post trib ???
Is this the flock of your church ONLY ....from the 35,000 PLUS denominations on earth ??? (stealing GOD'S tithe).
Our Lord will bring them ALL to destruction... as Babylon the great harlot. CITY Churches "eating and drinking and marrying" IN SATANS domain.
Personally, I see so many scriptures speak about the RIGHTEOUS since Abraham.
We are sons of Abraham...IF we are RIGHTEOUS !!!
Then too...WE SEE the meek will inherit the earth.
If the righteous and meek are the "church" then they are on earth.
Yes...our Lord Jesus rules over the whole earth for His Millinial reign WITH those chosen from the earth.
OVER the meek and righteous who inherit the earth.
WHAT IS THIS "CHURCH" raptured to heaven thing ?
The other views are all possible, time will tell! I want to add one more view: The pan-milennialism which means whatever pans out works for me
Aint that the truth...Jah will do what Jah will do.
Just a question to you all ;
What is this thing about "the church" ???
Like... "the church" will be raptured before or mid or post trib ???
Is this the flock of your church ONLY ....from the 35,000 PLUS denominations on earth ??? (stealing GOD'S tithe).
Our Lord will bring them ALL to destruction... as Babylon the great harlot. CITY Churches "eating and drinking and marrying" IN SATANS domain.
Personally, I see so many scriptures speak about the RIGHTEOUS since Abraham.
We are sons of Abraham...IF we are RIGHTEOUS !!!
Then too...WE SEE the meek will inherit the earth.
If the righteous and meek are the "church" then they are on earth.
Yes...our Lord Jesus rules over the whole earth for His Millinial reign WITH those chosen from the earth.
OVER the meek and righteous who inherit the earth.
WHAT IS THIS "CHURCH" raptured to heaven thing ?
Let us just ignore postmillenialism and amillennialism. According to the source you quoted for historic premillennialism:
Now we know that:
1. The Millennium does not begin until AFTER battle of Armageddon on earth (Rev 20)
2. That Christ descends WITH His saints from Heaven BEFORE the battle of Armageddon (Rev 19)
So it would be more than absurd for the Rapture to occur *immediately preceding the Millennial reign*
God does not expect Christians to resort to absurdity in order to understand His revelations.
- The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds immediately preceding the millennial reign.
Now we know that:
1. The Millennium does not begin until AFTER battle of Armageddon on earth (Rev 20)
2. That Christ descends WITH His saints from Heaven BEFORE the battle of Armageddon (Rev 19)
So it would be more than absurd for the Rapture to occur *immediately preceding the Millennial reign*
God does not expect Christians to resort to absurdity in order to understand His revelations.
