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Thread: The Rapture

  1. #7921
    Senior Member Snoozy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post
    Where will postrib rapture go at this point?

    The rapture is pretrib.
    Pretribbers had it right all the time.

    Note that historicists and post tribs NEVER BRING UP Israël. Becoming a nation mid 1900.
    Uh huh
    they cant. it refutes tehir beliefs they have to just act like nothing happened.

    some faithful men believed israel will return in teh 1800s and they were mocked for their faith. they read the bible and believed what it said about a real return. and now it has happened. great faith they had.

    i think the church went wrong when they started taking the promises of israel and transferring them to the church. like ezekiel 37 i talked about it with a brother here he was saying its about the church or typology or something about being born again. but really its about israel the chapter says it clearly. no mention of nobody else there but israel.

    replacement theology forces u to deny pre-trib rapture

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozy View Post
    they cant. it refutes tehir beliefs they have to just act like nothing happened.

    some faithful men believed israel will return in teh 1800s and they were mocked for their faith. they read the bible and believed what it said about a real return. and now it has happened. great faith they had.

    i think the church went wrong when they started taking the promises of israel and transferring them to the church. like ezekiel 37 i talked about it with a brother here he was saying its about the church or typology or something about being born again. but really its about israel the chapter says it clearly. no mention of nobody else there but israel.

    replacement theology forces u to deny pre-trib rapture
    Galatian 3:29

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    King James Version (KJV)

    not only physical jews are abraham's seed. Believer is abraham's seed as well.
    Yes I believe physical Jews back to Israel, Christian are half billion, Israel is small territory, not enough room for all Christian.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson123 View Post
    Galatian 3:29

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    King James Version (KJV)

    not only physical jews are abraham's seed. Believer is abraham's seed as well.
    Yes I believe physical Jews back to Israel, Christian are half billion, Israel is small territory, not enough room for all Christian.
    Who is the real church ? <------> Answer to be coninued

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post
    Quite a few references.
    First off it is short for "being caught up"

    It happened to Elijah,Enoch,Jesus, and in the future to the church and those that died in Jesus.

    For a bonus,the two witnesses in rev,as well as the group of "ripe fruit" in rev 14.

    All examples of " raptured"
    Questions
    Who are the 3 People of the bible that have transfigured bodies and why

    Who are the two witness's and What did they witness

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Enocish View Post
    Who is the real church ? <------> Answer to be coninued
    the real church is gathering real believers

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson123 View Post
    the real church is gathering real believers
    I am a believer, Am i being gathered. Are you a believer and are you being gathered. If so how is it we have very different views on this. May i suggest that our very different views is how we are being gathered, And the real church are a mixture of the tribes of israel and the Kings and Queens of the ethnos. It is my belief that will Separate the real church from the church that is decieved by the anti-christ. Which is a church also.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Pretrib is invented because of the few scriptures that they misuse.
    Here is one of them... the congregation of Philadelphia at Rev 3

    I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.


    OK... and here we see how we are kept from the hour of trial, and NOT by a pretrib rapture ;

    Joel 2:32
    It will so happen that

    everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered. 83
    For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem 84 there will be those who survive, 85
    just as the Lord has promised;

    So we survive on earth, as the people have fled to the wilderness worldwide.

    Mt Zion is not only that small one in tiny Israel today... OK !!!,
    NATIONS flee to the worldwide Mt ZION...God's footstool. The whole earth.

    Why cant brothers get it into their head, that Jesus will rule over ALL NATIONS WORLDWIDE.

    How dumb is it to keep insisting we all flee to tiny Israel... as some say.

    Yes we are protected from the hour of trial...
    BUT...it is by separating from the destruction of Babylon... NOT by the invented pretrib rapture ?

    We flee Babylon, here is written salvation again;



    10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
    11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. CHRISTIAN !!!


    12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
    13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
    14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. (SALVATION through the final 3 1/2 years).
    15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood.
    16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.

    17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    Now that is Christian salvation for SURE...AS WRITTEN.

    .................................................. .................................................. ...........

    But... that is a problem for pretrib rapture, as they say they were raptured...even before the first 3 1/2 years !!! So now with all the tricky stories, they are going to say it's Jew's who fled !!!

    Anyway... I will just keep posting scriptures proving an earthly salvation. (Ton's of them).
    Here is Zech 2;

    Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
    11And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
    12And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. HQ
    13.................................................. ................................

    Another thing...the WHOLE Bible is the word of GOD...BUT pretrib only use the Greek scriptures !!!

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Enocish View Post
    I am a believer, Am i being gathered. Are you a believer and are you being gathered. If so how is it we have very different views on this. May i suggest that our very different views is how we are being gathered, And the real church are a mixture of the tribes of israel and the Kings and Queens of the ethnos. It is my belief that will Separate the real church from the church that is decieved by the anti-christ. Which is a church also.
    no body perfect, that is where the different come from. When we are in heaven than no different any more.

  9. #7929
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenbee View Post
    Pretrib is invented because of the few scriptures that they misuse.
    Here is one of them... the congregation of Philadelphia at Rev 3

    I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.


    OK... and here we see how we are kept from the hour of trial, and NOT by a pretrib rapture ;

    Joel 2:32
    It will so happen that

    everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered. 83
    For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem 84 there will be those who survive, 85
    just as the Lord has promised;

    So we survive on earth, as the people have fled to the wilderness worldwide.

    Mt Zion is not only that small one in tiny Israel today... OK !!!,
    NATIONS flee to the worldwide Mt ZION...God's footstool. The whole earth.

    Why cant brothers get it into their head, that Jesus will rule over ALL NATIONS WORLDWIDE.

    How dumb is it to keep insisting we all flee to tiny Israel... as some say.

    Yes we are protected from the hour of trial...
    BUT...it is by separating from the destruction of Babylon... NOT by the invented pretrib rapture ?

    We flee Babylon, here is written salvation again;



    10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
    11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. CHRISTIAN !!!


    12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
    13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
    14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. (SALVATION through the final 3 1/2 years).
    15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood.
    16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.

    17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    Now that is Christian salvation for SURE...AS WRITTEN.

    .................................................. .................................................. ...........

    But... that is a problem for pretrib rapture, as they say they were raptured...even before the first 3 1/2 years !!! So now with all the tricky stories, they are going to say it's Jew's who fled !!!

    Anyway... I will just keep posting scriptures proving an earthly salvation. (Ton's of them).
    Here is Zech 2;

    Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
    11And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
    12And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. HQ
    13.................................................. ................................

    Another thing...the WHOLE Bible is the word of GOD...BUT pretrib only use the Greek scriptures !!!
    Rev 12:12

    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



    the devil having great wrath

    Great wrath to who?

    i believe to Christian during 7 years tribulation. So rapture is after tribulation

  10. #7930
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Hello Allenbee,

    Pretrib is invented because of the few scriptures that they misuse.
    Here is one of them... the congregation of Philadelphia at Rev 3

    I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.


    OK... and here we see how we are kept from the hour of trial, and NOT by a pretrib rapture


    You have not disproved the scripture above as referring to the gathering of the church. For in your attempt to disprove the gathering of the church you failed to explain how the Lord keeps us "out of" that hour of trial. In the scripture above the words "I will keep you out of the hour of trial" means that we will not even be present during that time period. It does not say "I will keep you through that hour of trial" or "I will keep you during or within that hour of trial" but it says, "I will keep you out of that hour of trial." And the way in which believers in Christ will be kept out of that time of God's wrath is because the Lord will appear and according to his promise, he will come for the church to take us to the Father's house, removing us from the earth.

    The teaching that the church will go through God's wrath is usually caused by a few misunderstandings:

    * Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowls

    * Not understanding that believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God

    * Not understanding that Christ already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves

    * Not making a distinction between the even of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age

    Just to name a few.

    Why cant brothers get it into their head, that Jesus will rule over ALL NATIONS WORLDWIDE.


    You are correct in that, Jesus will rule over all nations and the resurrected church, the male child/144,000 and those saints that died in the great tribulation, will all rule with Christ in their immortal and glorified bodies during Christ's thousand year reign as can be seen from the following scriptures:

    " To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

    " She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

    "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "

    Those mentioned above will rule with Christ during that thousand year reign on this earth in immortal and glorified bodies from taking part in the first resurrection.

    10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

    The "brothers" who are being accused in the scripture above, is referring to those great tribulation saints who will become believers in Christ during the time of God's wrath. The church is not even mentioned here. In fact, the church is never mentioned again after the end of chapter 3. These who are being in accused will be the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17 who are that great number of white robed saints which no man can count and who are from every nation, tribe, people and language, making them Gentiles.

    But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. (SALVATION through the final 3 1/2 years).


    According to Gen.37:9-10, the woman is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is representing Israel. She will be cared by God out in the wilderness for that 3 1/2 years where at which time Christ will return to the earth to end the age. This scripture has nothing to do with the church.

    All of your claims are all just misapplied and misunderstood scriptures, as it is apparent that you have not done a thorough study of all the related end-time scriptures.


    Another thing...the WHOLE Bible is the word of GOD...BUT pretrib only use the Greek scriptures !!!
    You will not find the gathering of the church (rapture) mentioned in the OT. In 1 Cor.15:52, Paul revealed it as being a "mystery" i.e. a secret and therefore the gathering of the living church was not known at the writing of the Hebrew scriptures.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  11. #7931
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Hello Allenbee,



    [/B]You have not disproved the scripture above as referring to the gathering of the church. For in your attempt to disprove the gathering of the church you failed to explain how the Lord keeps us "out of" that hour of trial. In the scripture above the words "I will keep you out of the hour of trial" means that we will not even be present during that time period. It does not say "I will keep you through that hour of trial" or "I will keep you during or within that hour of trial" but it says, "I will keep you out of that hour of trial." And the way in which believers in Christ will be kept out of that time of God's wrath is because the Lord will appear and according to his promise, he will come for the church to take us to the Father's house, removing us from the earth.

    The teaching that the church will go through God's wrath is usually caused by a few misunderstandings:

    * Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowls

    * Not understanding that believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God

    * Not understanding that Christ already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves

    * Not making a distinction between the even of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age

    Just to name a few.



    [/B]You are correct in that, Jesus will rule over all nations and the resurrected church, the male child/144,000 and those saints that died in the great tribulation, will all rule with Christ in their immortal and glorified bodies during Christ's thousand year reign as can be seen from the following scriptures:

    " To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

    " She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

    "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "

    Those mentioned above will rule with Christ during that thousand year reign on this earth in immortal and glorified bodies from taking part in the first resurrection.




    The "brothers" who are being accused in the scripture above, is referring to those great tribulation saints who will become believers in Christ during the time of God's wrath. The church is not even mentioned here. In fact, the church is never mentioned again after the end of chapter 3. These who are being in accused will be the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17 who are that great number of white robed saints which no man can count and who are from every nation, tribe, people and language, making them Gentiles.



    According to Gen.37:9-10, the woman is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is representing Israel. She will be cared by God out in the wilderness for that 3 1/2 years where at which time Christ will return to the earth to end the age. This scripture has nothing to do with the church.

    All of your claims are all just misapplied and misunderstood scriptures, as it is apparent that you have not done a thorough study of all the related end-time scriptures. [/B]



    You will not find the gathering of the church (rapture) mentioned in the OT. In 1 Cor.15:52, Paul revealed it as being a "mystery" i.e. a secret and therefore the gathering of the living church was not known at the writing of the Hebrew scriptures.[/COLOR]
    Hi brothe Ahwatukee

    is this you mean by keep you out of the hour of trial?


    Rev 3
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    what is hour of trial mean for you? Is that mean persecution?

    Do you believe real Christ follower will free from persecution, or wrath of the devil?

  12. #7932
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson123 View Post
    Hi brothe Ahwatukee

    is this you mean by keep you out of the hour of trial?


    Rev 3
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    what is hour of trial mean for you? Is that mean persecution?

    Do you believe real Christ follower will free from persecution, or wrath of the devil?
    no christian wont flee from the wrath of people or the devil.

    but the christian will flee from the wrath of God. which starts when the first seal is opened by the Lamb who is Jesus.

  13. #7933
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozy View Post
    no christian wont flee from the wrath of people or the devil.

    but the christian will flee from the wrath of God. which starts when the first seal is opened by the Lamb who is Jesus.

    Yep I agree. Paul not flee from persecution. Every body know that the power behind this persecution is devil. God not persecute Paul because he preach the Gospel.

    Devil behind Stephen killer, God not kill Stephen because he preach the Gospel.

    it is a promise that Christ follower will be hated by the world.
    So be ready, the world may persecute us, because we are Christian

  14. #7934
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Good day Jackson123!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson123 View Post
    Hi brothe Ahwatukee

    is this you mean by keep you out of the hour of trial?


    Rev 3
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    what is hour of trial mean for you? Is that mean persecution?

    Do you believe real Christ follower will free from persecution, or wrath of the devil?
    Yes, the word "ek" in the original is defined as "out of" as in, "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world."

    what is hour of trial mean for you? Is that mean persecution?


    Below is the scripture:

    "Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. "

    Notice that the Lord said that this time of trial is going to come upon the whole inhabited world. This "hour of trial" is another description for "the day of the Lord" i.e. the time of God's wrath, which is described in detail from Revelation chapters 6 thru 18 and which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is how God is going to carry out that time of trial/tribulation, which will be through his coming wrath.

    Do you believe real Christ follower will free from persecution, or wrath of the devil?
    Yes, I believe that those who become believers during that time will flee from, not only from the beasts persecution, but will also be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because they will be on the earth during that time.

    You have to keep in mind that the church is never referred to again after the end of chapter 3. And there is a reason for that. It is not a coincidence that the word church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then never used again. The word changes to "saints" and the word "church" no longer appears in the narrative. If these two words were used interchangeably throughout Revelation then it would not be an issue. It is the segregation of the two words that demonstrates a change from Revelation 4 onwards. The saints referred to beginning in Rev.5:8 is in reference to the great tribulation saint, who is not the church, but are those who will believe in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.

    I hope this sheds some light on the subject.


    Last edited by Ahwatukee; 1 Week Ago at 06:17 PM.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    [QUOTE=Ahwatukee;3345683]Good day Jackson123!



    Yes, the word "ek" in the original is defined as "out of" as in, "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world."



    Below is the scripture:

    "Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. "

    Notice that the Lord said that this time of trial is going to come upon the whole inhabited world. This "hour of trial" is another description for "the day of the Lord" i.e. the time of God's wrath, which is described in detail from Revelation chapters 6 thru 18 and which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is how God is going to carry out that time of trial/tribulation, which will be through his coming wrath.



    Yes, I believe that those who become believers during that time will flee from, not only from the beasts persecution, but will also be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because they will be on the earth during that time.

    You have to keep in mind that the church is never referred to again after the end of chapter 3. And there is a reason for that. It is not a coincidence that the word church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then never used again. The word changes to "saints" and the word "church" no longer appears in the narrative. If these two words were used interchangeably throughout Revelation then it would not be an issue. It is the segregation of the two words that demonstrates a change from Revelation 4 onwards. The saints referred to beginning in Rev.5:8 is in reference to the great tribulation saint, who is not the church, but are those who will believe in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.

    I hope this sheds some light on the subject.





    Do you believe real Christ follower will free from persecution, or wrath of the devil?


    this His section is my response
    if I understand correctly this is what your believe

    1. Christian will not persecute by devil, in the last 7 years

    2. The seal is wrath of God, not a wrath of the devil. Am I correct?

  16. #7936
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    [QUOTE=Jackson123;3345689][QUOTE=Ahwatukee;3345683]Good day Jackson123!



    Yes, the word "ek" in the original is defined as "out of" as in, "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world."



    Below is the scripture:

    "Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. "

    Notice that the Lord said that this time of trial is going to come upon the whole inhabited world. This "hour of trial" is another description for "the day of the Lord" i.e. the time of God's wrath, which is described in detail from Revelation chapters 6 thru 18 and which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is how God is going to carry out that time of trial/tribulation, which will be through his coming wrath.

    Yes, I believe that those who become believers during that time will flee from, not only from the beasts persecution, but will also be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because they will be on the earth during that time.

    You have to keep in mind that the church is never referred to again after the end of chapter 3. And there is a reason for that. It is not a coincidence that the word church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then never used again. The word changes to "saints" and the word "church" no longer appears in the narrative. If these two words were used interchangeably throughout Revelation then it would not be an issue. It is the segregation of the two words that demonstrates a change from Revelation 4 onwards. The saints referred to beginning in Rev.5:8 is in reference to the great tribulation saint, who is not the church, but are those who will believe in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.

    I hope this sheds some light on the subject.



    this His section is my response
    if I understand correctly this is what your believe

    1. Christian will not persecute by devil, in the last 7 years

    2. The seal is wrath of God, not a wrath of the devil. Am I correct?
    Regarding #1, the church will not be persecuted by Satan during the last 7 years and that because the church will be gathered prior to the 1st seal being opened.

    Regarding #2, Yes, the seals, along with the trumpets and bowl judgments all make up God's wrath, including the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth during that time. You have to remember that it is Jesus who is opening the seals, not Satan or mankind. Jesus is the One who will be trampling the wine-press of the wrath of God Almighty and he will accomplish this through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

    That last seven years will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel as revealed in Dan.9:24. The seven years begins when that ruler, the antichrist, establishes his covenant with Israel for one seven year period. Therefore, it is not the wrath of Satan or man, but the time of God's vengeance, the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

    During that same time period God's wrath will also be poured out upon a Christ rejecting world via the same seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is what is in view regarding Dan.2:31-45. The statue represents world government with the ten-toed kingdom made of partly iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom, which the antichrist will rule over. The Rock, which is symbolic for Christ, falls on the feet off the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor, with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, which represents the end of all human government never to be reestablished. Then, the Rock/Christ becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  17. #7937
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    [QUOTE=Ahwatukee;3345754][QUOTE=Jackson123;3345689]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Good day Jackson123!



    Yes, the word "ek" in the original is defined as "out of" as in, "I will keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world."



    Below is the scripture:

    "Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. "

    Notice that the Lord said that this time of trial is going to come upon the whole inhabited world. This "hour of trial" is another description for "the day of the Lord" i.e. the time of God's wrath, which is described in detail from Revelation chapters 6 thru 18 and which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is how God is going to carry out that time of trial/tribulation, which will be through his coming wrath.

    Yes, I believe that those who become believers during that time will flee from, not only from the beasts persecution, but will also be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because they will be on the earth during that time.

    You have to keep in mind that the church is never referred to again after the end of chapter 3. And there is a reason for that. It is not a coincidence that the word church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then never used again. The word changes to "saints" and the word "church" no longer appears in the narrative. If these two words were used interchangeably throughout Revelation then it would not be an issue. It is the segregation of the two words that demonstrates a change from Revelation 4 onwards. The saints referred to beginning in Rev.5:8 is in reference to the great tribulation saint, who is not the church, but are those who will believe in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.

    I hope this sheds some light on the subject.





    Regarding #1, the church will not be persecuted by Satan during the last 7 years and that because the church will be gathered prior to the 1st seal being opened.

    Regarding #2, Yes, the seals, along with the trumpets and bowl judgments all make up God's wrath, including the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth during that time. You have to remember that it is Jesus who is opening the seals, not Satan or mankind. Jesus is the One who will be trampling the wine-press of the wrath of God Almighty and he will accomplish this through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

    That last seven years will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel as revealed in Dan.9:24. The seven years begins when that ruler, the antichrist, establishes his covenant with Israel for one seven year period. Therefore, it is not the wrath of Satan or man, but the time of God's vengeance, the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

    During that same time period God's wrath will also be poured out upon a Christ rejecting world via the same seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is what is in view regarding Dan.2:31-45. The statue represents world government with the ten-toed kingdom made of partly iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom, which the antichrist will rule over. The Rock, which is symbolic for Christ, falls on the feet off the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor, with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, which represents the end of all human government never to be reestablished. Then, the Rock/Christ becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom.
    1. You believe devil not persecute Christian in the last 7 years, do you believe devil will persecute non Christian that time, or not persecute any body?

    2. You believe seal is a wrath of God.

    And you believe it happen during 7 years tribulation. How do you know it happen after rapture?

  18. #7938
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozy View Post
    they cant. it refutes tehir beliefs they have to just act like nothing happened.

    some faithful men believed israel will return in teh 1800s and they were mocked for their faith. they read the bible and believed what it said about a real return. and now it has happened. great faith they had.

    i think the church went wrong when they started taking the promises of israel and transferring them to the church. like ezekiel 37 i talked about it with a brother here he was saying its about the church or typology or something about being born again. but really its about israel the chapter says it clearly. no mention of nobody else there but israel.

    replacement theology forces u to deny pre-trib rapture

    Snoozy, It is SAD,SO SAD that so many on this forum don't believe in Jesus WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED.


    It is what it is and I for one am going to limit responses to those who appear to really need help. This thread is about the Rapture and it has over 375 post and most of them are denying it.

    There are a myraid number of ways and reasons people use hoping to get to heaven when they DIE. Only one of those will work. "Grace By Faith" and Faith Alone".


    of course, one of the main stumbling blocks, is as you stated above.

    Thank you. and may GOD Bless you for your insight into the WORD of GOD!


    Like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 (KJV) "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    With Jesus Christ as your savior, The Holy Spirit will teach you if you are willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities if you will listen to Him. He will protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if you will let Him.

  19. #7939
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    Default Re: The Rapture

    The rapture is part of the eschatology. There being 4 different views of it that theologians have debated for centuries. The problem that the arguments in this thread ignore is that much of Daniel and Revelation are still sealed. Therefore in reality no one really knows. Which of the 4 is correct or possible none are. SEALED means we really don't know until after the fact like the statue in Daniel.

    My mother was an RN and one doctor had a phrase he would utter when angry. It seems to fit this thread.

    You argufy and sputify and know not wherein.

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    Default Re: The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Endoscopy View Post
    The rapture is part of the eschatology. There being 4 different views of it that theologians have debated for centuries. The problem that the arguments in this thread ignore is that much of Daniel and Revelation are still sealed. Therefore in reality no one really knows. Which of the 4 is correct or possible none are. SEALED means we really don't know until after the fact like the statue in Daniel.
    The very fact that the book of Revelation is called The Apocalypse, and the Greek apokalupsis means unveiling, is a clear indication that you have failed to take into account. Furthermore, since Christ actually OPENED the seals, nothing is sealed since then, and everything that God wants us to know is REVEALED. You will note that I did not say "everything", but everything that God wants us to know.

    Yes Daniel was told back in around 600 B.C. "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" but after the coming of Christ and the Revelation of Christ, "the time of the end" became "the time is at hand".

    Having said that, since this thread is on the Rapture, the Resurrection/Rapture is NOT mentioned in Revelation but it is mentioned throughout the New Testament. If we had nothing else, John 14:1-3 would suffice.

    As to four interpretations, they cannot all be simultaneously correct, so it behooves every Christians to determine which is the correct interpretation and stick with it. A Pre-Tribulation Pre-Millennial Resurrection/Rapture of the saints fits perfectly with all other Gospel truth. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture, and has no relationship to any tribulation period.
    Last edited by Nehemiah6; 1 Week Ago at 11:46 PM.
    heartofdavid likes this.

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