The Rapture

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heartofdavid

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Ex 16:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud;

1 Thes 4:16 (B) With the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: "


matthew 24 "
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, ( the world will be going on as normal when Jesus returns) 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
revelation 13 " And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."


revelation 14 " And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
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And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."


the saints those who keep Jesus testimony and commandments, are on earth while all of this is happening, its been unfolding since jerusalem was destroyed in ad 70. and has spread to every part of the earth the world is currectly in tribulation, its just that we see our own world and neighborhood and city. when you look globally from jerusalem at the center, there is total chaos around thier borders all reletive middle eastern countries, china, russia, Iran, north korea, syria ect all of these countries foundational belief is that Israel needs wiped from existance. there are famines terrorists spreading like fire through africa and europe, already consumning the levant. even peceful nations like america there are murders and rapes and terrible abuses of children and the prisons are so full we have no room left, weve removed Gods name from nearly everything public, were fluirting with nuclear war. the world is not like it seems in our living room, or church building, were blessed to have been born in a place of less chaos, but its not that it isnt occuring.

the " rapture" is simply the day of the Lord when Jesus returns with all those who have been martyred to gather those who believed and condemn those who would not believe. the 7 year rapture stuff is just people trying to firgure out whats not really there. Jesus is the way to understand whats coming for His people. he has alot to say of His return and the gathering of His elect. he claims as revelation claims that believers will exist in a world that is of darkness and many persecutions they will face, that the world and its rule will hate those who are disciples of Jesus. the thing is it was a;lready a dark and evil world , thats Why we killed the One good man who ever was born who came to Love and save us..... paul taught the present evil and dark world we must be aware of and stand against even in His time.


ephesoians 6 "
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand"


from the beginning Gods people have been mistreated abel was killed for righteousness sake. the prophets then were stoned and killed by those they were sent to, Jesus was Killed by those He was sent to, the apostles were martyred by those they were sent to preach the gospel to, those who would not deny burned on crosses, skinned alive, boiled in vats of oil, tossed whole families into arenas with Hungry lions and tigers, bears and beasts, snake pits bonfires, linens soaked in oils crucified and set ablaze to light neros garden.......


in 2016, ( fox news. the ap, and every major news org, reported ) 90,000 christians martyred for thier faith. suicide bombings of christian churches, missionaries killed in war torn countries, caught up in civil wars, beheadings by terrorist muslims mass shootings in congo.....


the things in revelation are a slowly unfolding more of a semi perpetual thing, people wonder often why bad things happen and God doesnt step in and stop all the terrible things....the world is like it is, because God gave it to us and we brought the curses of sin and death to the earth. this world is winding down and the new things will come. if were here in the very end when Jesus comes, then well be caught up with Him, and the rest will be cast into the lake of fire. if the rapture is referring to that its true, but the pre trib rapture forces Jesus to not understand what hes talking about, its the safest thing to trust His view it will always be correct, revelation remember is His revelation His words.....it connects everywhere



No,there is no rapture at his return with the saints.
That would be postrib rapture doctrine,which has no scriptural support

The GT IS Jacobs. Has nothing to do with the church.
The key is to know the purpose of the GT
 
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heartofdavid

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Why? If the Church is raptured will God take only people who believe the pre-trib rapture? Or will he take all of us?
The Five wise virgins went out to meet him.

Postribs think such a thing is error
 
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heartofdavid

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So which half of us get left behind?
The foolish virgins had no oil.
But went out to meet him.

Oil,or the lack thereof prohibited their gathering.

Nominal dry beleivers stay behind
 

Ahwatukee

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I am sure gentiles will make it through the GT.
It says "every man woman and child take the mark" and that "power was given him to overcome the saints".
Being given the power to make war and conquer the saints, does not mean that he is completely successful, as there will be Gentiles who resist the beast, his image and his mark but will still survive until Christ returns.

The above is not supporting your position! Not too mention that scripture states that not everyone receives the mark. Anyone who receives the mark and survives through God's wrath until Christ comes, they will be gathered by the angels and killed by that double-edged sword. Therefore, there still would be no Gentiles to go into the millennial period. As I said, not everyone receives the mark and still survives until Christ returns at the end of the age.

The judgment of the sheep and the goats take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Who do you think they are? Those sheep who make it through will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. So there you have another example of Gentiles entering into the millennial period.
 
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I'm with you providing you can consider that we should remember ALL of Rome. The Eastern half of the empire (Byzantium)as well as the West.The Eastern half outlasted the western half by over 1000 years and it encompassed all the territories of the former Babylonian, Persian, Assyrian & Egyptian empires as well as most of the Greek.

there are 3 elements to the beast, the dragon who is cast from Heaven is satan, He is a spirit, the beast of the sea , is a line of Kingdoms and Kings working together, the beast of the earth is a man speaking as a dragon, satan. the dragon, gives His authority to the beast ( the kingdoms) the final beast is the final King the arises from the kings
 
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there are 3 elements to the beast, the dragon who is cast from Heaven is satan, He is a spirit, the beast of the sea , is a line of Kingdoms and Kings working together, the beast of the earth is a man speaking as a dragon, satan. the dragon, gives His authority to the beast ( the kingdoms) the final beast is the final King the arises from the kings

Heres what im saying the beast comes about....and ends with satan

chapter 12 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

ch 13 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (3 and a half years ) 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
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And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear.


ch 17 9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( kings who were no more) and one is, ( that ruled currently) and the other is not yet come; ( was to come)and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


this makes 18 Kings 7+10+1

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


this happens later


19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast ( that was, is not, and will come to go into perdition) was taken, and with him the false prophet ( beast of the earth) that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

this is what doesnt really fit with rome to me

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,( satans power) and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."



it doesnt really fit with things that have already happened parts of it do, to me it has to be perpetual more than a momentary event were waiting for, it seems revelation is more past , present, and future context or context out of times framework.

daniels 4 beasts has the same appearance, and wars with the saints and overcomes them, is different from all other kingdoms and devours the whole earth. he sees four beasts with 7 heads. the ruling beast there has the head of a bear, and leopard, and a lion. which shows up in the revelation beasts appearance as well.to me this connects those kingdoms also with the equation. it seems satan has been at work through man for a long while on earth......and prophecy isnt really understood but through prophecy



 

Ahwatukee

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And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,( satans power) and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

this is what doesn't really fit with Rome to me
It fits Rome to me, as I believe that the second beast as being the false prophet, will be one of the future pope's. There are currently over 1.2 billion Roman Catholics. Think about how that number would increase if the pope of that time were to perform those miracles, signs and wonders, even causing fire to come down out of heaven, which he will perform to give credibility to the first beast/antichrist, who will be claiming to be God. The faithful Roman Catholic would become even more faithful and everyone who was so, so, would be come devout. The rest of the false Christian sects (Mornon, JW, etc.) would all be drawn into that last day religious system and come under the authority of the pope and Roman Catholicism.

Since the pope would be performing everything on behalf of the antichrist/beast, then the beast through the false prophet would have that entire religious system in his hip pocket. The false prophet is also the one who will be causing all to receive that mark.

The office of the pope as the second beast/false prophet, fits perfectly in my estimation.
 
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JoshMal

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Let's not forget that Jesus also talked about a Pre-Trib rapture.
He said it will be like any other day - like today. People going about their usual business, lifestyle etc.
He said (Paraphrased) "Two people will be in one bed, one will be taken and the other left behind. Two women will be weaving, one will be taken and the other left behind. So be watchful"
He said the signs are all what is happening around us - Wars, rumors of wars, epidemics, etc.
With this, there is going to be a pre-trib rapture for His faithful (Not lukewarm) followers.
From the looks of it, it seems people are still given another chance after the Rapture. But, they'll have to experience the Trib.
I still have questions to abt d mid and post trib. Will there be more than one Rapture? Will there be a chance for redemption of people that went to Hell before the Rapture and Trib?
 

Ahwatukee

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Greetings JoshMal,

He said (Paraphrased) "Two people will be in one bed, one will be taken and the other left behind. Two women will be weaving, one will be taken and the other left behind.


The scripture above has been misunderstood my many. If you will look at the context of the scripture, the "one taken" group is being compared to the wicked who were "taken" in the flood. Therefore, the comparison is wicked to wicked.

The "one taken, one left" is also related to the parable of the weeds and the wheat. In that parable the harvesters, who are symbolic for the angels, go throughout the earth and first gather the weeds. These represent the "one taken." When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age the angels He will send his angels out and they will gather the weeds, which will be all those who sin and do evil and they will bring them back to where Armageddon will be taking place, where they will be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which is figurative representing the word of God.

In further support of this, in Luke's version, when the Lord says "one will be taken, and one will be left" the disciples ask him, "where Lord?" That is, where are they going to be taken? Then Jesus says "wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures gather." His response is in reference to Rev.19:17 where that angel will be calling to all the birds/vultures of the air to come gather themselves to the great supper of God to eat the flesh of kings, generals, their armies and all people great and small.

I still have questions to about mid and post trib. Will there be more than one Rapture?


There will indeed be more than one gathering. The church is next and will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which is what initiates God's wrath. The male child/144,000 will also be caught up to God's throne out of the dragon's/Satan's reach. Below is a list of the resurrections and those changed and caught up:

* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection

* The church at the Lord's appearing

* The male child/144,000 who will be changed and caught up

* The two witnesses will be resurrected

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

Will there be a chance for redemption of people that went to Hell before the Rapture and Trib?
Just as the rich man of Lazarus fame could not come back from Hades nor could anyone go from there to warn his brothers, neither does anyone else who goes to Sheol/Hades have a second chance to come back. God's grace, mercy and salvation is available while a person is alive. But once a person dies without receiving Christ, their record is sealed where they will be held accountable for every idle word they ever spoke. You've heard of that saying where the judge throws the book at someone, well that is exactly what is going to happen at the great white throne judgment.

For those in Christ He was held accountable for every believers sins. But for those who reject Him and die in that state, they will be held accountable for every sin, every evil thought and action, the result being the lake of fire.

 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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This subject has many variable views and they all affect the final conclusion.

=What happens when you die.
=Where is the 1000 years spent. On earth or in heaven.
=How many resurrections of the dead and when.
=Post or pre tribulation rapture.
=Secret or a rapture that happens in the sight of Gods glory/coming.
=The antichrist, beasts in Rev, and the mark of the beast.

All of these will affect your conclusion on this subject and i don't think i can go into detail about each point, because it would take so long, and most of you are fully convinced already.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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This subject has many variable views and they all affect the final conclusion.

=What happens when you die.
=Where is the 1000 years spent. On earth or in heaven.
=How many resurrections of the dead and when.
=Post or pre tribulation rapture.
=Secret or a rapture that happens in the sight of Gods glory/coming.
=The antichrist, beasts in Rev, and the mark of the beast.

All of these will affect your conclusion on this subject and i don't think i can go into detail about each point, because it would take so long, and most of you are fully convinced already.
I would be interested in your thoughts but...

There seem to be a core group of prophecy students here who think they have it all worked out and are only interested in presenting their lecture with endless corrections of those of us who colour outside the margins. It's not proper discussion and study. And it's disappointing because prophecy is the most exciting aspect of scripture.

If someone starts another thread it will likely end up the same.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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The church in the GT is destroyed by the AC.

It clearly,clearly,clearly says he destroys ALL refusing the mark.
It even says " every man ,woman,child,free and bond "
There are DEFINATELY no christians making it through the GT.

Seriously? Where does it say that the church is destroyed? The church is NEVER destroyed. The church took the warning given in Mat 24 and fled Judea over the mountains to Pella of the Decapolis (the place prepared by God), when they saw the Abomination of Desolation (AKA, the Roman forces). They heard the voice from heaven telling them, "Let us remove hence," as recorded by Josephus, and they did. The church wasn't even in Jerusalem to endure the Great Tribulation.

The so-called AC, AKA Man of Sin was Titus. He was so focused on conquering Jerusalem and Judea that he didn't even realize the Christians had all fled with not one being killed.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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there are 3 elements to the beast, the dragon who is cast from Heaven is satan, He is a spirit, the beast of the sea , is a line of Kingdoms and Kings working together, the beast of the earth is a man speaking as a dragon, satan. the dragon, gives His authority to the beast ( the kingdoms) the final beast is the final King the arises from the kings
This is how I have read it in a rough outline.

Sea beast = The Empire
Earth beast = The Man
(both may display a counterfeit resurrection by Satanic power. The fatal head wound that appears to be healed.)

Harlot = The religion that rides the empire [sea beast]

The man beast (satanic) destroys the harlot because he hates her and takes control of her territory. Thus having control of a new and vast empire (kingdom) that is made up of the others that went before.
 
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The dead know nothing there judgement is set as soon as they die their memory is forgotten as that temporal corrupted spirit returns forever to the father who gave it once.. Those who do inherit eternal life that have been given a new spirit that will never die but will be raised on the last day to the new creature the former things will not be remember or ever come to mind. There will be no memory or the experience of the new heavens and earth .One receives new memories the other receives nothing.

The parable in Luke is no different than the rest of the parables that fall together in that series. It would seem you are confusing metaphor s used to give us the hidden spiritual understanding as if it was not a parable which does use the temporal seen (tongues, hands, water) to reveal the unseen spiritual

The poor man named (Lazarus) which means “God helps”, is the beggar . The rich man who no longer has any spirit life and no body, has no literal a tongue to receive literal water they will not raise to new spirit life on the last day. There will be no Zombies who died and where resurrected to new spirit life only to be taken away again.

It’s born again (new spirit) once.

The temporal spirit that returned to our father in heaven does not get dished out again and again (reincarnation) just to be taken away on the last day.
 
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If someone starts another thread it will likely end up the same.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



I would agree . If the language is signified to be used as a parable the meaning of the metaphors as to the spiritual understanding must be searched out. In doing so the Amil position no literal thousand years works the best to represent the one bride of of Christ the church signified in Revelation 21. She is made up of many living stones that does make up the church. To say the church is missing in scriptures . I would think something else is missing like the spiritual understanding hid in those parables.

What is the spiritual understanding signified of the key other than the the gospel . It open the gates of hell .It binds the spirit of error from working in the affairs of men .The spirit of error not seen is signified by the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan. Casting the spirit of lies which is bound by the gospel using the metphor bottomless pit to represent what kind of seal .

John saw thrones as a metphor that speaks of the judgement of God , he in a vision from the last day looking back saw the souls that have no form of them that were beheaded, a metphor that speaks of authority ,not literal heads without a literal body , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;the mark of Cain will a restless wander no Sabbath rest of Christ, natural unconverted man and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Thousand here signified is used as it is in other places to indicate a unknown amount of literal time or what ever is in view..
 
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Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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I don't like being talked down to as if I'm stupid.
It apparently hasn't occurred to you that we could learn from EACH OTHER.
I was trying to make the point that assertions about end times have been made for a long time. I have seen most of them be false. It therefore means that we need to be cautious about asserting things about the end times as fact. Avoid saying something as fact. Preface it with possibly, I think, etc. That is what I was trying to TEACH you.
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



I would agree . If the language is signified to be used as a parable the meaning of the metaphors as to the spiritual understanding must be searched out. In doing so the Amil position no literal thousand years works the best to represent the one bride of of Christ the church signified in Revelation 21. She is made up of many living stones that does make up the church. To say the church is missing in scriptures . I would think something else is missing like the spiritual understanding hid in those parables.

What is the spiritual understanding signified of the key other than the the gospel . It open the gates of hell .It binds the spirit of error from working in the affairs of men .The spirit of error not seen is signified by the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan. Casting the spirit of lies which is bound by the gospel using the metphor bottomless pit to represent what kind of seal .

John saw thrones as a metphor that speaks of the judgement of God , he in a vision from the last day looking back saw the souls that have no form of them that were beheaded, a metphor that speaks of authority ,not literal heads without a literal body , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;the mark of Cain will a restless wander no Sabbath rest of Christ, natural unconverted man and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Thousand here signified is used as it is in other places to indicate a unknown amount of literal time or what ever is in view..
KJV has the problem of the English language changing since 1611. Here is the verse in modern English.

Revelation 1 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

1 [This is] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John,