The Rapture

[PlainWord]

Rev 17:10-11..........

That would be Nero also. Do the math:

John begins his count with the first self-proclaimed emperor of Rome, Julius Caesar. Prior to Julius Caesar’s reign, Rome was a republic ruled by someone like a president whose power was limited by the senate. After Julius Caesar’s death, Rome was ruled by kings with absolute power. The next four Caesars are Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, and Claudius. These kings had fallen. Therefore John must have been shown this vision during the reign of the next Caesar, the one named by the 666 cryptogram in Revelation 13:18–Nero.

During the year between Nero’s death and Vespasian’s ascension, Rome was ruled by three generals each of whom ruled during a time of civil war and thus never fully attained control of the empire. Upon seizing power, each general’s claim to the throne was heavily contested by uprisings in various parts of the empire that supported another general’s right to rule. The west supported Galba, parts of the empire supported Otho and the north supported Vitellius. The first-century Roman historian Suetonius in his work entitled The Lives of the Twelve Caesars refers to the brief reigns of Galba, Otho and Vitellius as but a “rebellion.” Josephus, another first-century historian, called every Roman ruler from Julius to Vespasian “Caesar” except when mentioning Galba, Otho and Vitellius. These kings all reigned in A.D. 69 during what may have been the most tumultuous year in Roman history corresponding with the fifth plague of Revelation 16:10.

At this time, God turned his attention away from Judea and raised his hand against Rome. This plague was triggered by Nero’s death. Having stabbed himself in the throat, Nero represents the wounded head of the beast. As a result of this fatal wound (Revelation 13:3), the beast’s kingdom is cast into darkness and thus begins the fifth plague. The fact that Rome, the beast, is cast into darkness during the fifth plague of Revelation 16:10 symbolizes the descent of the beast into the outer darkness of the Abyss, “the land of gloom and utter darkness, . . . the land of deepest night, of utter darkness and disorder, where even the light is like darkness (Job 10:19-22).” The Abyss is presumably the dark underworld of the dead. The fact that the beast is dead in A.D. 69 is also implied by the fact that in Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8 the beast is said to come up out of the Abyss, the realm of the dead as stated above. This resurrection imagery points to the antecedent death of the beast. During this year of darkness, Rome died with Nero and the Roman Empire collapsed from the combined weight of wars to the east and west and a three-way civil war within.

The collapse of the Roman Empire in A.D. 69 is also implied in Revelation 16:19: “The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.” “The great city” in v. 19 is an ambiguous term for both Jerusalem and Rome. In A.D. 69 both Rome and Jerusalem split into three parts as a consequence of separate three-way civil wars. In Jerusalem, Jewish rebels split the city into three factions led by three aspiring Messiahs—John, Simon and Eleazar. Meanwhile in Rome, Galba, Otho and Vitellius pitted the Roman legions against each other for control of the empire. According to Revelation 16:19, after the death of Nero, while Jerusalem and Rome were split into three parts, “the cities of the nations collapsed.” “The cities of the nations” is Rome. The collapse of the Roman Empire is symbolically depicted as the death of the seven-headed beast as a consequence of the “fatal wound” of Revelation 13:3 in which Nero committed suicide by stabbing himself in the throat in A.D. 68.

With the sixth head wounded, the Roman leviathan suffered a fatal injury, an injury with which Rome does not fully recover until the fall of Jerusalem and the rise of the Flavian Dynasty, when peace and order returned. Having ruled during the fifth plague, when Rome is metaphorically dead as a result of its wounded head, Galba, Otho and Vitellius are not considered heads of the beast. These three men ruled in A.D. 69, when the beast “now is not.” The beast that has not yet come in v. 10 is the Roman Empire under the Flavian Dynasty; Caesar Vespasian, Caesar Titus and Caesar Domitian. - RevelationRevolution.org

 

[PlainWord]

But it doesn't end ALL prophecy. Get over that teaching that is clouding your perceptions. I agree that much you say is right, but you must realize, and you have said it, that not all prophecies end in 70 ad. Stop trying to smash everything into that time frame. Open your mind to the time after 70 ad. when the trampling of Jerusalem by the gentile nations ends.

The 3 1/2 times in Dan 12, proves that the 3 1/2 times are not literal years. And there is another 3 1/2 times after that to make a complete 7 times. This proves hat there is a time after 70 ad.

Virtually all of the remaining prophesy post-Jesus was fulfilled in 70 AD with very precious few, minor and inconclusive exceptions such as the second resurrection of the damned or the "beasts" in Dan 7 having their lives prolonged for a time and season. There is nothing you can pick up in the history from say 100 AD to today.

The trampling of Jerusalem in Lk 21 and Rev 13 was the same, it was the Gentile armies arrayed against the temple prior to and including 70 AD.

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The "wrath" was against the wicked Jews of Jerusalem as taught by Jesus just a few pages earlier in Lk 19:41-44. They were slaughtered by sword, by famine and by fire. The survivors were led away captive into all nations. The Gentiles trampled the city until the city was no more. It was like a milestone thrown in the sea with not one stone on top of another. It was complete utter desolation. Thus there was no more city to trample after this. The city standing there now was not the same city, even if it is located in the same place. It is the same in name and location but nothing else, not even the streets.

It's not about the country, it's about the control of Jerusalem, the trampling Lk 21:20-24, 24. Rev 11:2.

This is exactly where this "every prophecy ended in 70 ad" stuff gets you. The prophecy of the times of the gentiles has a beginning and an end. But the gentiles didn't end their trampling in 70 ad. they remained in control of the site of Jerusalem until 1967 and the ToG's came to an end. The times that describe Israel outside of Jerusalem all have a beginning and an end.

But nobody in the past could tell exactly how long that time was, until it came to an end.

Again, this is where you (and others) get it wrong and here's the proof from the companion passage in Rev 11:

“Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

The time limit is given as 42 months, the exact length of the siege and final end to Jerusalem. When John wrote this in 69 AD, the Temple was still standing as he was told to go measure it. He could not have measured it after 70 AD or any time since. Thus the court, where the gentiles were trampling for 42 months dealt with the time when the temple was still standing. See the problem you have?

Stop assigning some future fulfillment when the past fulfillment fits perfectly.

 

[Locutus]

Some good points there PL - I still have to get back to you on the resurrection of the "damned".

 

[abcdef]

That would be Nero also. Do the math:

Brother PlainWord,

Extensive copy/paste replies are very time consuming to answer, but I will take the time for you, this time.

John begins his count with the first self-proclaimed emperor of Rome, Julius Caesar. Prior to Julius Caesar’s reign, Rome was a republic ruled by someone like a president whose power was limited by the senate. After Julius Caesar’s death, Rome was ruled by kings with absolute power. The next four Caesars are Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, and Claudius. These kings had fallen. Therefore John must have been shown this vision during the reign of the next Caesar, the one named by the 666 cryptogram in Revelation 13:18–Nero.

The earth beast is not Nero alone. The earth beast is religious Rome, not a singular Caesar. Just as the sea beast is not a singular Caesar. (iron legs/toes)

The beast that is shown in Rev 17 is Rome, the Roman Empire. (not Jerusalem, because you are saying that the heads are all Roman Caesars).

The 7 heads represent the lifetime of the Roman Empire. This is shown in the observation that the woman and the 8th head live and are living in the same time period as the 10 kings/kingdoms that made up the former Roman Empire.

So the logic would be, that if the heads were representing actual persons, then the 8th head must also. But that can not be possible because the life time of the 8th head is shown to last far beyond the life of a person. That is, being the 8th head, he must live from when the 7th head dies until the end of the iron legs/toes of the statue in Dan 2.

So when does the 7th head die? And how long does the 8th head live? The time shown MUST align with the statue of Daniel 2.

During the year between Nero’s death and Vespasian’s ascension, Rome was ruled by three generals each of whom ruled during a time of civil war and thus never fully attained control of the empire. Upon seizing power, each general’s claim to the throne was heavily contested by uprisings in various parts of the empire that supported another general’s right to rule. The west supported Galba, parts of the empire supported Otho and the north supported Vitellius. The first-century Roman historian Suetonius in his work entitled The Lives of the Twelve Caesars refers to the brief reigns of Galba, Otho and Vitellius as but a “rebellion.” Josephus, another first-century historian, called every Roman ruler from Julius to Vespasian “Caesar” except when mentioning Galba, Otho and Vitellius. These kings all reigned in A.D. 69 during what may have been the most tumultuous year in Roman history corresponding with the fifth plague of Revelation 16:10.

The passage in Rev 16:10 is shows that Rome was under God's blessing until the darkness was poured out. You're copy/paste wants to say that Rome was "in the light of God's blessings", but that was not true of the Roman iron dragon Empire.

At this time, God turned his attention away from Judea and raised his hand against Rome.

Before 70 ad?

This plague was triggered by Nero’s death.

An assumption.

Having stabbed himself in the throat, Nero represents the wounded head of the beast. As a result of this fatal wound (Revelation 13:3), the beast’s kingdom is cast into darkness and thus begins the fifth plague. The fact that Rome, the beast, is cast into darkness during the fifth plague of Revelation 16:10 symbolizes the descent of the beast into the outer darkness of the Abyss,

No, it shows the ascent of the beast Empire out of the pit. God's light shown on Rome prior to this darkness.

“the land of gloom and utter darkness, . . . the land of deepest night, of utter darkness and disorder, where even the light is like darkness (Job 10:19-22).” The Abyss is presumably the dark underworld of the dead.

Well he got that right.

The fact that the beast is dead in A.D. 69

But the beast Roman iron dragon nation did not die in 69 ad. The beast is a nation/kingdom. not a person.

is also implied by the fact that in Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8 the beast is said to come up out of the Abyss, the realm of the dead as stated above. This resurrection imagery points to the antecedent death of the beast. During this year of darkness, Rome died with Nero and the Roman Empire collapsed from the combined weight of wars to the east and west and a three-way civil war within.

But the Roman Empire didn't die, history has the date of the fall in 476 ad.

The collapse of the Roman Empire in A.D. 69 is also implied in Revelation 16:19: “The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.” “The great city” in v. 19 is an ambiguous term for both Jerusalem and Rome. In A.D. 69 both Rome and Jerusalem split into three parts as a consequence of separate three-way civil wars. In Jerusalem, Jewish rebels split the city into three factions led by three aspiring Messiahs—John, Simon and Eleazar. Meanwhile in Rome, Galba, Otho and Vitellius pitted the Roman legions against each other for control of the empire. According to Revelation 16:19, after the death of Nero, while Jerusalem and Rome were split into three parts, “the cities of the nations collapsed.” “The cities of the nations” is Rome. The collapse of the Roman Empire is symbolically depicted as the death of the seven-headed beast as a consequence of the “fatal wound” of Revelation 13:3 in which Nero committed suicide by stabbing himself in the throat in A.D. 68.

So do you agree with this guy that the 7th plague is Jerusalem AND Rome? I doubt it.

With the sixth head wounded, the Roman leviathan suffered a fatal injury, an injury with which Rome does not fully recover until the fall of Jerusalem and the rise of the Flavian Dynasty, when peace and order returned. Having ruled during the fifth plague, when Rome is metaphorically dead as a result of its wounded head, Galba, Otho and Vitellius are not considered heads of the beast. These three men ruled in A.D. 69, when the beast “now is not.” The beast that has not yet come in v. 10 is the Roman Empire under the Flavian Dynasty; Caesar Vespasian, Caesar Titus and Caesar Domitian. - RevelationRevolution.org

So he says that the prophecies extend past 70 ad. Can you agree with him?

 

[abcdef]

Virtually all of the remaining prophesy post-Jesus was fulfilled in 70 AD with very precious few, minor and inconclusive exceptions

Much was fulfilled, but not all.

such as the second resurrection of the damned

There are only 2 resurrections 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

This resurrection you claim makes 3.

or the "beasts" in Dan 7 having their lives prolonged for a time and season.

Beyond 70 ad? how is that?

There is nothing you can pick up in the history from say 100 AD to today.

The beast of Rome ascended out of the abyss in 1929 when Rome became a nation again, in exactly the same spot. (The city was under God's blessings and light until the Roman iron dragon beast returned to sit on the seat of the beast 5th bowl/plague.)

Jerusalem was restored in 1967 ending the times of the gentiles of Lk 21:24.

The trumpets tell the story of the natural branches after the dest of 70 ad. (No gap)

The trampling of Jerusalem in Lk 21 and Rev 13 was the same, it was the Gentile armies arrayed against the temple prior to and including 70 AD.

But the trampling didn't end in 70 ad., it continued.

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The "wrath" was against the wicked Jews of Jerusalem as taught by Jesus just a few pages earlier in Lk 19:41-44. They were slaughtered by sword, by famine and by fire. The survivors were led away captive into all nations. The Gentiles trampled the city until the city was no more. It was like a milestone thrown in the sea with not one stone on top of another. It was complete utter desolation. Thus there was no more city to trample after this. The city standing there now was not the same city, even if it is located in the same place. It is the same in name and location but nothing else, not even the streets.

Yes 70 ad. But the fact that there were no buildings on the place of Jerusalem doesn't mean that the gentiles ceased control over the site. Rome kept troops there for years to ensure the control even AFTER the siege had completely ended.

Again, this is where you (and others) get it wrong and here's the proof from the companion passage in Rev 11:

“Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

The time limit is given as 42 months, the exact length of the siege and final end to Jerusalem. When John wrote this in 69 AD, the Temple was still standing as he was told to go measure it. He could not have measured it after 70 AD or any time since. Thus the court, where the gentiles were trampling for 42 months dealt with the time when the temple was still standing. See the problem you have?

Again, remember that the 3 1/2 times are NOT LITERAL YEARS. The 3 1/2 times represent centuries. Proven by Dan. 12.

The 3 1/2 times is the same time as the woman in ch 12. The time that Israel is in the wilderness of the gentile nations until they are restored to Jerusalem. At the end of the 3 1/2 times the woman MUST return from the wilderness of the gentile nations.

These represent the second 3 1/2 times, from 70 ad until the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel.

Completing the 7 times and the statue of Dan. 2.

They are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages.

Stop assigning some future fulfillment when the past fulfillment fits perfectly.

Except that it does not fit perfectly.

The resurrection of Jesus coming for the kingdom did not happen in 70 ad. Jesus came and destroyed Jerusalem, but it was not a resurrection coming.

The beast's power over Israel did not end in 70 ad., it continued up until 1967 when the iron/clay/toes of the statue ended.

The heads of the beast are Roman Caesars, but not individual Caesars, they are all the Caesars, including the 8th head, the image of the beast Caesars (RCC, BoR's), who rule Israel after the Roman Empire sea beast dies.

 

[Endoscopy]

The Wall is not a part of the Temple, that wall is only a part of the Temple mount. That big flat area (where the Dome of the Rock is located) is the supposed grounds of the Temple that was once built somewhere in that big flat area. The Jews do not know where the actual Temple was at, in that big flat area. The Jews to this day are trying to look for any evidence to where the Temple actually was at. Now they seem to have some evidence that it may have been somewhere else and not in the big flat area. But the Truth still remains, they just don't know where it was at.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Try to refute what Jesus and Josephus said in the following.

Where was the temple built?


Biblical Archaeological Evidence for the Temple | Base Institute

It may be surprising to some, but in the fourth century, people were trying to find the lost sites of the former temples of Solomon and Herod. They simply did not know where the temple sites were placed. In 70 AD the temple was completely and utterly uprooted by the Romans, thus fulfilling Christ’s prophesy that not one stone would be standing upon another there. The temple was eradicated from all recognition, so much so that no one could even tell that the building had ever existed. So, in the next 300 years, with so many Jews having been killed or expelled from the land, people were not sure where the correct location of the temple was so four other sites that were proposed. The temple mount was settled on as the site of the lost temple even though the Bible seems to indicate that it is someplace altogether.

Like so many, I have always thought that the location for the temple of Solomon had been proven to be on the traditional Temple Mount in Jerusalem. But, I began to become doubtful of that traditional view of the temple placement after Dr. Paul Feinberg alerted me to the revolutionary work of the late archaeologist and author, Dr. Ernest L. Martin. This research effort would not have been possible without his groundbreaking insights.
However, I hope that my own personal research presented herein offers a bold new chapter in this potentially history-adjusting subject.

Jesus warned His disciples of the coming destruction of the temple and that not one stone of the temple would be left on top of another. Matthew 24:1-2 says, ”Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, ‘Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” Christ’s words clearly state that the entire temple, each and every stone, will be dug up, dislodged, and tossed away. It is interesting to note that there are massive stone blocks by the thousands set in the wall supporting the Temple Mount platform. Was Jesus wrong in His prophesying that not one stone would remain standing?

When you look carefully at the Bible verse, “not one stone upon another,” we find that Jesus was actually gone from the temple when He spoke those words. Jesus was walking away when His disciples came up to Him and called His attention to the temple buildings. The verse continues with Christ asking, ”Do you not see all these things?”
 
What Jesus is mentioning is the whole of the temple, being seen from a distance of some unknown calibration, but most assuredly down the road some from the temple complex. It was from this space of separation that Christ says that every stone of the temple would be thrown down. He would have been describing the walls, ancillary buildings, and all.

Historian Flavius Josephus wrote that the entirety of the temple was indeed in total ruin and destruction after 70 AD. He went on to say that if he had not personally been in Jerusalem during the war and witnessed the demolition by Titus of the temple that took place there, he wouldn’t have believed it ever existed. In Josephus (Jewish Wars, VII, 1.1) it speaks of widespread destruction in all Jerusalem as well. Archaeology and eye-witness evidence suggests that Jerusalem was destroyed so severely that not much of it was left. However, the foundation walls of what we call today the traditional Temple Mount would not, in all likelihood, be included in the manifest of any destroyed edifices because it was Roman-owned and would be considered separate from Jerusalem by Josephus.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother PlainWord,

Extensive copy/paste replies are very time consuming to answer, but I will take the time for you, this time.



The earth beast is not Nero alone. The earth beast is religious Rome, not a singular Caesar. Just as the sea beast is not a singular Caesar. (iron legs/toes)

The beast that is shown in Rev 17 is Rome, the Roman Empire. (not Jerusalem, because you are saying that the heads are all Roman Caesars).

The 7 heads represent the lifetime of the Roman Empire. This is shown in the observation that the woman and the 8th head live and are living in the same time period as the 10 kings/kingdoms that made up the former Roman Empire.

So the logic would be, that if the heads were representing actual persons, then the 8th head must also. But that can not be possible because the life time of the 8th head is shown to last far beyond the life of a person. That is, being the 8th head, he must live from when the 7th head dies until the end of the iron legs/toes of the statue in Dan 2.

So when does the 7th head die? And how long does the 8th head live? The time shown MUST align with the statue of Daniel 2.





The passage in Rev 16:10 is shows that Rome was under God's blessing until the darkness was poured out. You're copy/paste wants to say that Rome was "in the light of God's blessings", but that was not true of the Roman iron dragon Empire.




Before 70 ad?



An assumption.



No, it shows the ascent of the beast Empire out of the pit. God's light shown on Rome prior to this darkness.




Well he got that right.



But the beast Roman iron dragon nation did not die in 69 ad. The beast is a nation/kingdom. not a person.




But the Roman Empire didn't die, history has the date of the fall in 476 ad.




So do you agree with this guy that the 7th plague is Jerusalem AND Rome? I doubt it.



So he says that the prophecies extend past 70 ad. Can you agree with him?

There are 4 Biblical views of eschatology. This one doesn't conform to any of the 4 Biblical views. I am a Pan mil myself. It will all pan out in the end.

 

[abcdef]

There are 4 Biblical views of eschatology. This one doesn't conform to any of the 4 Biblical views. I am a Pan mil myself. It will all pan out in the end.

Pan mill, good one! ha ha.

---

But we can't allow ourselves to be limited to 4 boxes of prophecy. I have always thought that some truth can be found in all of them. And so the truth is kind of in the middle.

---

Most believe in a trib period, it's a matter of when and how long the trib is.

Most believe in an Antichrist, again it's a matter of when and where.

Most believe in an abomination, it's just when.

So it's not usually a matter of whether or not there is one, it's just when the event happens in the prophetic time line.

----

The 3 1/2 times are a good example.

Mostly they have been thought of as literal years because of the passages concerning the 2W's and the woman of Rev 12. But we can see from the statement of the angel in Dan. 12 that the time is far longer than 3 1/2 years. That is because they are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages.

The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until 70 ad when the power of the holy people is scattered. This proves that the times are not literal years, but centuries.

This means that the 3 1/2 times in the story of the 2W's and the ch 12 woman are far longer than a few years, they cover centuries, they are both showing the second 3 1/2 times. 70 ad - 1967 when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem and the ToG's come to an end, completing the 7 times.

----

Another example would be the Antichrist. He is not just one person who has power over the holy people for 3 1/2 years, but is all the Caesars of the Roman Empire who rules the holy people from 70 ad until 1967, 3 1/2 times.

In this time period the Roman Empire falls (sea beast), and is continued by the image Caesar (earth beast, Caesar worship, 8th head, RCC).

The iron legs of Dan. 2 do not stop, leave a gap and then start again, they are a continual nation/kingdom until the toes end. There is no gap.

----

 

[Endoscopy]

Pan mill, good one! ha ha.

---

But we can't allow ourselves to be limited to 4 boxes of prophecy. I have always thought that some truth can be found in all of them. And so the truth is kind of in the middle.

---

Most believe in a trib period, it's a matter of when and how long the trib is.

Most believe in an Antichrist, again it's a matter of when and where.

Most believe in an abomination, it's just when.

So it's not usually a matter of whether or not there is one, it's just when the event happens in the prophetic time line.

----

The 3 1/2 times are a good example.

Mostly they have been thought of as literal years because of the passages concerning the 2W's and the woman of Rev 12. But we can see from the statement of the angel in Dan. 12 that the time is far longer than 3 1/2 years. That is because they are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages.

The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until 70 ad when the power of the holy people is scattered. This proves that the times are not literal years, but centuries.

This means that the 3 1/2 times in the story of the 2W's and the ch 12 woman are far longer than a few years, they cover centuries, they are both showing the second 3 1/2 times. 70 ad - 1967 when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem and the ToG's come to an end, completing the 7 times.

----

Another example would be the Antichrist. He is not just one person who has power over the holy people for 3 1/2 years, but is all the Caesars of the Roman Empire who rules the holy people from 70 ad until 1967, 3 1/2 times.

In this time period the Roman Empire falls (sea beast), and is continued by the image Caesar (earth beast, Caesar worship, 8th head, RCC).

The iron legs of Dan. 2 do not stop, leave a gap and then start again, they are a continual nation/kingdom until the toes end. There is no gap.

----

I will repeat what I have said before. At 73 I have had a times to think and study this issue in my late teens and early 20s. Later as elder and deacon in 3 seperate churches (moved twice) I had classes including this subject from the pastors. I have also off and on read books relating to this issue. A major problem is Daniel states his book is closed until the end times. That implies Revelation is also. The symbology in both force this. I have read books that claimed to have the answer and stated that a predicted point in time using a couple of years for happenings to occur. Those years went by and nothing happened. Therefore I reject believing any assertions like them. I believe with certain events happening that the end is drawing near but certain prophecies need to occur first. The abomination of desolation needs a new temple for it to occur for example. The Jews are researching where they believe the temple once stood. Jesus stood at a distance from the temple and told his disciples to look at the temple complex and stated not one stone would be left on top of another. Josephus witnessed this destruction by Titus and stated that if he hadn't witnesses the complete destruction of the temple complex he wouldn't know where it once stood. Therefore the wailing wall was never part of the temple complex. Jesus stated the entire complex would be eradicated and Josephus recorded it happened as Jesus stated it would.

 

[Endoscopy]

That would be Nero also. Do the math:

John begins his count with the first self-proclaimed emperor of Rome, Julius Caesar. Prior to Julius Caesar’s reign, Rome was a republic ruled by someone like a president whose power was limited by the senate. After Julius Caesar’s death, Rome was ruled by kings with absolute power. The next four Caesars are Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, and Claudius. These kings had fallen. Therefore John must have been shown this vision during the reign of the next Caesar, the one named by the 666 cryptogram in Revelation 13:18–Nero.

During the year between Nero’s death and Vespasian’s ascension, Rome was ruled by three generals each of whom ruled during a time of civil war and thus never fully attained control of the empire. Upon seizing power, each general’s claim to the throne was heavily contested by uprisings in various parts of the empire that supported another general’s right to rule. The west supported Galba, parts of the empire supported Otho and the north supp4orted Vitellius. The first-century Roman historian Suetonius in his work entitled The Lives of the Twelve Caesars refers to the brief reigns of Galba, Otho and Vitellius as but a “rebellion.” Josephus, another first-century historian, called every Roman ruler from Julius to Vespasian “Caesar” except when mentioning Galba, Otho and Vitellius. These kings all reigned in A.D. 69 during what may have been the most tumultuous year in Roman history corresponding with the fifth plague of Revelation 16:10.

At this time, God turned his attention away from Judea and raised his hand against Rome. This plague was triggered by Nero’s death. Having stabbed himself in the throat, Nero represents the wounded head of the beast. As a result of this fatal wound (Revelation 13:3), the beast’s kingdom is cast into darkness and thus begins the fifth plague. The fact that Rome, the beast, is cast into darkness during the fifth plague of Revelation 16:10 symbolizes the descent of the beast into the outer darkness of the Abyss, “the land of gloom and utter darkness, . . . the land of deepest night, of utter darkness and disorder, where even the light is like darkness (Job 10:19-22).” The Abyss is presumably the dark underworld of the dead. The fact that the beast is dead in A.D. 69 is also implied by the fact that in Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8 the beast is said to come up out of the Abyss, the realm of the dead as stated above. This resurrection imagery points to the antecedent death of the beast. During this year of darkness, Rome died with Nero and the Roman Empire collapsed from the combined weight of wars to the east and west and a three-way civil war within.

The collapse of the Roman Empire in A.D. 69 is also implied in Revelation 16:19: “The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.” “The great city” in v. 19 is an ambiguous term for both Jerusalem and Rome. In A.D. 69 both Rome and Jerusalem split into three parts as a consequence of separate three-way civil wars. In Jerusalem, Jewish rebels split the city into three factions led by three aspiring Messiahs—John, Simon and Eleazar. Meanwhile in Rome, Galba, Otho and Vitellius pitted the Roman legions against each other for control of the empire. According to Revelation 16:19, after the death of Nero, while Jerusalem and Rome were split into three parts, “the cities of the nations collapsed.” “The cities of the nations” is Rome. The collapse of the Roman Empire is symbolically depicted as the death of the seven-headed beast as a consequence of the “fatal wound” of Revelation 13:3 in which Nero committed suicide by stabbing himself in the throat in A.D. 68.

With the sixth head wounded, the Roman leviathan suffered a fatal injury, an injury with which Rome does not fully recover until the fall of Jerusalem and the rise of the Flavian Dynasty, when peace and order returned. Having ruled during the fifth plague, when Rome is metaphorically dead as a result of its wounded head, Galba, Otho and Vitellius are not considered heads of the beast. These three men ruled in A.D. 69, when the beast “now is not.” The beast that has not yet come in v. 10 is the Roman Empire under the Flavian Dynasty; Caesar Vespasian, Caesar Titus and Caesar Domitian. - RevelationRevolution.org

Many times there is a type of fulfillment of prophecy before the final fulfillment. Since the prophecy in question is part of the eschatologyical prophecies that is the case here. The Caesers are obviously not part of the end times prophecies that these prophecies are about. Nice to read about but the Roman empire is gone for well over 1700 years. Also Revelation was written after these events. It was the last book of the Bible written. Keep in mind when the books of the Bible were written.

When was Revelation Written
Early Church tradition dates the book to end of the emperor Domitian (reigned AD 81–96), and most modern scholars agree, although the author may have written a first version under Vespasian (AD 69–79) and updated it under Domitian.

 

[PlainWord]

Many times there is a type of fulfillment of prophecy before the final fulfillment. Since the prophecy in question is part of the eschatologyical prophecies that is the case here. The Caesers are obviously not part of the end times prophecies that these prophecies are about. Nice to read about but the Roman empire is gone for well over 1700 years. Also Revelation was written after these events. It was the last book of the Bible written. Keep in mind when the books of the Bible were written.

When was Revelation Written
Early Church tradition dates the book to end of the emperor Domitian (reigned AD 81–96), and most modern scholars agree, although the author may have written a first version under Vespasian (AD 69–79) and updated it under Domitian.

Thanks for that. I would suggest that if there is a prophesy, then a fulfillment a short time later, consider that prophesy fulfilled rather than ignoring it and looking for yet an additional, future fulfillment. If there is a future dual fulfillment, so be it but we shouldn't count on it when one isn't clearly given.

Perhaps the biggest problem most futurists have (other than loss of audience integrity) is not understanding that "the last days," "the end of the age," "the end of the ages," and "the end of the world" all applied to the events of 67-70 AD.

If you do a deep dive in Mt 13:38-40 you will see the "world" appear 3 times. In vs 38, the world is "kosmos" translated "world." Here it means the world of men, or mankind in the habitable world. In vs. 39 and 40, the "end of the world" contains "aion" which actually has 3 meanings, "age," "life-time" or "forever" but it does not mean "end of the world." That is a horrible translation. The English translators of the KJV and NKJV messed up royally on this. See the below commentary:

Milburn Cockrell (1998)
"The translators of our English version did a very poor job in translating the Greek word "aion." It occurs a little over 100 times in the Greek New Testament. In our King James Version it is translated 'world' 32 times, 'for ever' 27 times, 'for ever and ever' 20 times, and by a few other words some-times. Only two times out of a little over 100 is it properly translated 'age' (Eph. 2:7; Col 1:26). In my honest opinion, two out of a hundred is a very poor record." (Berea Baptist Banner August 5, 1998, page 1 - M.C. Editor)

Tittman (1835)
"(Greek - coming), as it occurs in the New Testament, does not denote the end, but rather the consummation, of the aeon, which is to be followed by a new age. So in Matt. xiii. 39, 40, 49; xxiv. 3; which last passage, it is to be feared, may be misunderstood in applying it to the destruction of the world." (Synonyms of the New Test. vol. i. a. 70; Bib. Cab. No. iii.)

There are many examples where the disciples (including Paul and the writer of Hebrews) refer to the fact that they are in the "last days" or "end of the age." So either the last days covers a third of earth's history and counting, or the age was coming to and end and did in fact end in 70 AD. See 1 Cor 10:11, Heb 1:2, 9:26, Acts 2:17, James 5:3 etc.

John wrote the Book of Revelation sometime between 68 and early 70 AD. The reference you cite comes from one man, St. Irenaeus. The quote comes from "Against Heresies" Book V, CH 30, 3. Irenaeus lived in and spent most of his life in France. He had no direct contact with John but rather he once met Polycarp (in 155 AD) who claimed to have been a disciple of John and heard the account from him. ALL OTHER SOURCES from the early church simply repeat this one line from Irenaeus. He wrote "Heresies" around 190 AD. So he is recalling a conversation from 35 years earlier!! Also, none of his writings were original, rather most were fragments or came from later authors who cited him. Do you really want to trust this later date for Revelation based on this measly source from France heard 3rd hand more than 100 years later?

The actual quote is this:

We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

Some suggest what Irenaeus was really saying is that John never revealed the name of the "antichrist" because at the time the Emperor was Nero and even 30 years later in 96 AD, when Domitian was Caesar, John still did not want to announce it then under Domitian because Rome still controlled the known world.

The evidence for an earlier dating of Revelation to 68-70 AD is way more compelling.

The "Syriac version of the Apocalypse" contains this subtitle: "The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."

In Rev 11, the temple is still standing.

I can cite more if you are interested.

 

[PlainWord]

Some good points there PL - I still have to get back to you on the resurrection of the "damned".

Okay. Love to hear your take on it. A-F, have to run, but see you gave me some homework. Love you all!!

 

[abcdef]

I will repeat what I have said before. At 73 I have had a times to think and study this issue in my late teens and early 20s. Later as elder and deacon in 3 seperate churches (moved twice) I had classes including this subject from the pastors. I have also off and on read books relating to this issue. A major problem is Daniel states his book is closed until the end times. That implies Revelation is also. The symbology in both force this. I have read books that claimed to have the answer and stated that a predicted point in time using a couple of years for happenings to occur. Those years went by and nothing happened. Therefore I reject believing any assertions like them.

Hi,

It seems like you hold to the 4 theories, but don't believe in the complete accuracy of any of them.

I agree that someone who sets a date is probably going to be wrong. I believe that the Bible doesn't give a date for the rapt/resur., but does give the circumstances of the events leading to Jesus coming for the kingdom. (Rev 11:15)

For example, if someone believed that Jesus was coming for the kingdom at the 7th trumpet, then we can look at the events at the 6th trumpet for evidence of the circumstances. Then identifying the characters and entities, we can relate them to our present situation or not.

One part of the problem that people have is that they enter into study with preconceived ideas. They are mostly drawn from the 4 theories that are popular. I mean that when a person begins to study, they have to start some where.

Preterists want to jam everything into a 70 ad finish. They want to eliminate everything beyond 70 ad.

This theory hides the Roman iron nation after 70 ad saying that Nero was the beast. This is RCC teaching also.

Pretrib's want to eliminate the same time period, 70 ad - present, saying there is a "gap".

This also hides the iron legs/toes Roman dragon beast nation, after 70 ad - present. There is no gap in the legs/toes of the statue of Dan. 2.

--

These preconceived ideas that there is nothing after 70 ad. or that there is a gap, cause many passages to be twisted to meet the standards of the principal that was wrong to begin with.

There is no gap in the prophetic time line. The trumpets tell the story of Israel the broken branches after 70 ad. And there is no gap in the 70 wks of Daniel.

I believe with certain events happening that the end is drawing near but certain prophecies need to occur first. The abomination of desolation needs a new temple for it to occur for example.

This is another example. The idea that the AoD did not happen in 37-70 ad is to take the event out of the time frame context.

You agree that Matt 24 is about the 70 ad destruction, but then want to pull the event out of context and place it in a future from here time line, to agree with the 7 yr pre-trib theory. But the AoD did happen then, that is one reason that Jerusalem was destroyed.

In Daniel, the 69th week BEGINS when Jesus comes to begin His ministry, 30 ad., confirming the covenant between God and Israel. In the middle of the week Jesus dies, 69 1/2. Israel rejects the gospel Pentecost kingdom after 3 1/2 years, ENDING the 70 weeks, 37 ad.

The AoD happens within this time frame context. So in order for the AoD to happen, the context of the coming of Jesus and His ministry would have to happen again. In the context of the entire chapter, the 70 ad destruction is clearly seen, and that would have to happen again also.

Basically, pretrib is saying that everything that happened in the 30-70 ad time period must happen exactly the same, with the same events and characters and then have ANOTHER AoD.

That is why they believe that the temple must be rebuilt. This leads to things like believing that Jesus can't come for the kingdom until the temple is rebuilt, so man can control when Jesus comes and the by building the temple or not building it, and the Antichrist also.

The Jews are researching where they believe the temple once stood. Jesus stood at a distance from the temple and told his disciples to look at the temple complex and stated not one stone would be left on top of another. Josephus witnessed this destruction by Titus and stated that if he hadn't witnesses the complete destruction of the temple complex he wouldn't know where it once stood. Therefore the wailing wall was never part of the temple complex. Jesus stated the entire complex would be eradicated and Josephus recorded it happened as Jesus stated it would.

But then that would fulfill the passages about the temple destruction in 70 ad. Why would you think that the AoD which is intertwined with the destruction in those passages did not happen? Jerusalem was destroyed. Just because some one said that you cannot prove that it did? Well, prove that it DID NOT happen! According to the context of the fulfilled prophecies IT DID!

 

[Roadkill]

Luk_4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

These demons knew and testified that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God. This is what Scriptures plainly teaches. Demons knew He was the Son of God and they OBEYED Him when Jesus told them to do anything at all.



That may be True, however, Demons are tricky and could say the above with a slight change in wording. So it could seem they are confessing that Jesus is Christ in the flesh, but didn't really actually say that, depending on the words they use.



If the angel actually did tell you that, then it is at this point that i do not believe you were talking with an Angel of God. satan and his demons were cast to the Earth, but you are saying they have a way to get off this planet. This is not the TRUTH, they are confined here and are not allowed to leave the vicinity of this planet under any circumstances, They can go as far as humans can go and that is it. Demons are subject to satan, they are slaves to satan, but you are teaching that there is a way for demons to escape being a slave to satan, all they have to do is claim that Jesus is the Christ in the flesh and they are no longer allowed to be on this planet, thereby getting away from satan. This is not True, nor did God tell you that thing. We will see on June 1st, who has been speaking to you.



demons are already bound by chains of darkness, all of which are slaves to satan.



And if any Spiritual being gives you a prophesy and then tells you that your not a prophet, should most certainly be questioned as a Spirit of God as well.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

I guess we will see come June 1st after May.
But I must warn you about something also. Consider Acts 16: 16-18. This was a Spirit that had short term prophecy. If you think demons and spirits can't prophesize you are wrong. God had sent evil spirits to prophesize to the false prophets in the Old Testament to fool them. They can but the difference is that their prophecies are not 100 percent accurate like the ones from God. They can and do use prophecy to fool people into believing they are from God the Father or they are gods themselves. This is scriptural.
They can also practice Balaamism which is trading or selling spiritual gifts for profit. The tests are given in the Bible for a reason and must be answered as instructed. They will not confess the gospel of Jesus Christ to anyone. Removed from this Earth( that is being taken out of the world of men) and being placed under chains of darkness is a special punishment to them before the Judgement of Hell is imposed upon them. Think of this world as a dentention center(jail) and they roam this jail picking on juveniles thrown in with them(humans). They are allowed to tempt us and torment us within the will of God. When they exceed this, and many times they do, they can be placed under chains of darkness which is a Solitary Confinement of sorts for them until the appointed time they are cast into Hell( The Real Prison). None of them want this but some are crazy enough to try and break God's will anyways. The angels here protect us from them as we each have one that goes where we go to guard against them. Unless directed by God otherwise these angels are not allowed to interfere with the affairs of men. They can not interfere with a crime being done to a person unless special permission from God allows this. They are here specifically to help with demonic attacks. They will not help if the person has fooled with the occult and has invited these things into their Lives until God tells them to.

I'm not saying demons are free to Leave this Earth. I am saying if they Break the Rule on their part of 1st John chapter 4 verses 1-3 by directly confessing the Gospel of Jesus Christ that they will immediately be placed under darkness. All of them know this and they will most likely argue the gospel or leave your presence depending on the situation.

If demons are under chains of darkness how do you explain demonic possession? How do you explain that Jesus was running across them during his time on this earth? They are here and they are among us, have no doubt of that. But he who is in us is stronger than he who is in them.

Angels can protect me from the demons( yes they know where I am, I have five assigned to harass me) but they can only do what God will allow before the Angels interfere. A human, demon worshipper if you will, can walk right in and harm or kill myself and my family and unless God tells these angels to interfere they can not stop them. This is a rare event and I'm not here to tempt the Lord my God!

 

[Roadkill]

And yet they said it anyways. Which is my exact point. A poster said that demons can't say that, yet i have revealed a verse where they did say exactly that. Now if you would like to discuss the reasons for the demons saying that, then please do so. But i was clearly answering a poster who said they can't say that with a verse where they actually said that. Now if you want to turn the page and discuss why they said it, then ask your questions.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

I'm sorry but they did not repeat the Gospel of Jesus Christ because he had not at that time been crucified and raised from the dead. They Said and recognized his Devine Position as God's Messiah and his Being the Son of God, as the Holy One of God. They Recognized his Divinity not what he did to save mankind. This is their test to see if they are of God or not because this is the work of God that men should believe on Jesus Christ through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Roadkill]

Sir! You need to stop teaching these things, because they are false teachings! When a believer in Christ dies, their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This IS NOT a resurrection.

The word "anastasis" is defined as "ana = up again and hestemi = to stand, properly to 'stand up again bodily." Therefore, the "resurrection" has to do with the bodies of the dead in Christ "standing up again" just as the Lord stood up again in His body when He resurrected.

To be clear, when the gathering of the church takes place, the Lord will bring with him the spirits of those who will have died in Him from the beginning of the church until that time, and their spirits will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Regarding those in Christ who are still alive, they will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have resurrected. Below is the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection." Pay attention to what is in red and underlined:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising​

Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the same way that Christ resurrected in the same body that he died in, so also will those who have died in Him stand back up in their bodies, taking on immortal and glorified characteristics.

The body dying and the spirit departing to the Lord is not a resurrection.

Death of a believer = Spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord

Resurrection = The spirit of the believer is reunited with his/her resurrected immortal and glorified body

The resurrection is a group event involving the entire church, not an individual, one at a time event.

I support this 100 percent.
Hebrews 9:27
When you die you are immediately in the presence of God and are being judged. If you are Christian Jesus will be there to intercede for you. If he is not, you are in BIG Trouble!

The Great White Throne Judgement is for all of those who rejected Jesus in this life. You don't want to be in that resurrection.

 

[Endoscopy]

Thanks for that. I would suggest that if there is a prophesy, then a fulfillment a short time later, consider that prophesy fulfilled rather than ignoring it and looking for yet an additional, future fulfillment. If there is a future dual fulfillment, so be it but we shouldn't count on it when one isn't clearly given.

Perhaps the biggest problem most futurists have (other than loss of audience integrity) is not understanding that "the last days," "the end of the age," "the end of the ages," and "the end of the world" all applied to the events of 67-70 AD.

If you do a deep dive in Mt 13:38-40 you will see the "world" appear 3 times. In vs 38, the world is "kosmos" translated "world." Here it means the world of men, or mankind in the habitable world. In vs. 39 and 40, the "end of the world" contains "aion" which actually has 3 meanings, "age," "life-time" or "forever" but it does not mean "end of the world." That is a horrible translation. The English translators of the KJV and NKJV messed up royally on this. See the below commentary:

Milburn Cockrell (1998)
"The translators of our English version did a very poor job in translating the Greek word "aion." It occurs a little over 100 times in the Greek New Testament. In our King James Version it is translated 'world' 32 times, 'for ever' 27 times, 'for ever and ever' 20 times, and by a few other words some-times. Only two times out of a little over 100 is it properly translated 'age' (Eph. 2:7; Col 1:26). In my honest opinion, two out of a hundred is a very poor record." (Berea Baptist Banner August 5, 1998, page 1 - M.C. Editor)

Tittman (1835)
"(Greek - coming), as it occurs in the New Testament, does not denote the end, but rather the consummation, of the aeon, which is to be followed by a new age. So in Matt. xiii. 39, 40, 49; xxiv. 3; which last passage, it is to be feared, may be misunderstood in applying it to the destruction of the world." (Synonyms of the New Test. vol. i. a. 70; Bib. Cab. No. iii.)

There are many examples where the disciples (including Paul and the writer of Hebrews) refer to the fact that they are in the "last days" or "end of the age." So either the last days covers a third of earth's history and counting, or the age was coming to and end and did in fact end in 70 AD. See 1 Cor 10:11, Heb 1:2, 9:26, Acts 2:17, James 5:3 etc.

John wrote the Book of Revelation sometime between 68 and early 70 AD. The reference you cite comes from one man, St. Irenaeus. The quote comes from "Against Heresies" Book V, CH 30, 3. Irenaeus lived in and spent most of his life in France. He had no direct contact with John but rather he once met Polycarp (in 155 AD) who claimed to have been a disciple of John and heard the account from him. ALL OTHER SOURCES from the early church simply repeat this one line from Irenaeus. He wrote "Heresies" around 190 AD. So he is recalling a conversation from 35 years earlier!! Also, none of his writings were original, rather most were fragments or came from later authors who cited him. Do you really want to trust this later date for Revelation based on this measly source from France heard 3rd hand more than 100 years later?

The actual quote is this:

We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

Some suggest what Irenaeus was really saying is that John never revealed the name of the "antichrist" because at the time the Emperor was Nero and even 30 years later in 96 AD, when Domitian was Caesar, John still did not want to announce it then under Domitian because Rome still controlled the known world.

The evidence for an earlier dating of Revelation to 68-70 AD is way more compelling.

The "Syriac version of the Apocalypse" contains this subtitle: "The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."

In Rev 11, the temple is still standing.

I can cite more if you are interested.

You ignore what most theologians think of the time Revelation was written. Also if he just delayed releasing it he would have modified it to take into account the recent happenings about possible events being part of the prophecy. I was well aware of where he was and why when he wrote it. Nothing changes the fact that it is an eschatologyical book. Therefore about the end times not current events.

 

[Roadkill]

Sister Roadkill

What a name by the way. What's up with that, LOL? Any way, great questions and I have great answers for you.



Read the text very closely.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Notice Christ comes in like manner as He went into heaven, not as He left earth. You see when Christ left our physical dimension and returned to the spiritual realm, He transformed back to His spiritual self, the brightest of all "angels." When viewed on earth by mortals, Christ would be visible only as an extremely bright light as Saul/Paul saw. Now read Rev 18:1:

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with His glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen...

Christ lit up the entire night sky in 70 AD when Babylon (AKA Jerusalem of the 1st century) fell. This event was recorded in history by Josephus. This is how every eye saw him and apparently every knee bowed, including those who pierced Him, which of course were the Romans of the first century at the behest of the evil Jewish religious leaders, all of whom were killed within a week of the temple being destroyed.

to be continued. Have to run.

Sorry, not a sister, mistake on my part not corrected yet.
You still have not shown specifically scripture to back you up.. Everyone who has seen Jesus in Heaven has recognized his person. Look at the Mount of Transfiguration Incident. His body was glorified and It did glow but he and Moses and Elijah were still recognizable as humans. That means a BODY however glorified. LOL

 

[Roadkill]

The fact that Israel is once again a nation is meaningless. There is no scripture that says Israel will forever be desolate or that the nation will return or not. Luke's account in Lk 21:24 tells of a scattering of the people into all the nations. This happened in 70 AD, a mere 40 years after Jesus foretold it. Just because Jesus was silent concerning the return of the people ~ 1,900 years later doesn't mean it couldn't happen. The prophesy of the Olivet Discourse, all three versions of it, were perfectly and completely fulfilled in the first century, in THAT generation, as He said.

As for your "winter" argument, what are you even talking about? The comment about "praying that your flight not be in the winter" was not addressed to the wicked Jews about to face the wrath, rather it was aimed at the roughly 144,000 Christians on Mt. Zion who had gathered there for the Feast of Pentecost (which was one of three Jewish festivals that Christian Jews still returned to Jerusalem to celebrate). The warning was for them to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Jerusalem was first surrounded by Cestius Gallus then later, by Vespasian then he returned to Rome to become emperor after the death of Nero and the "year of the three Caesars" which was Rome's civil war in late 69. Vespasian then order Titus to Jerusalem and he arrived in Feb/Mar of 70 AD, which would have been winter. During these breaks in the sieges, Christians fled over the mountains to Pella, which would be in northern Jordan. This is all in the historical record as recorded by many early Christian writers as below.

Pseudo-Clementines (2/3rd century)
"Subsequently also an evident proof of this great mystery is supplied in the fact, that every one who, believing in this Prophet who had been foretold by Moses, is baptized in His name, shall be kept unhurt from the destruction of war which impends over the unbelieving nation, and the place itself; but that those who do not believe shall be made exiles from their place and kingdom, that even against their will they may understand and obey the will of God." (Recognitions 1:39:3)

Eusebius (325)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)
"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)
"After all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel andwhich is situated in the neighborhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there." (Panarion 30:2)
"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).
"Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis-- called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella" (Haer 29:7).
"For when all who believed in Christ had settled down about that time in Peraea, the majority of the emigrants taking up their abode at Pella, a town belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the Gospel, near Batanea and the district to Basanitis, Ebion got his excuse and opportunity. At first their abode was Kochaba, a village in the district of Carnaim, Arnem, and Astaroth, in the region of Basanitis, according to the information we have received. But I have spoken, in other connections and with regard to other heresies, of the locality of Kochaba and Arabia (Haer 30:2)... "[The Ebionites] spring for the most part from Batanea ... and Paneas, as well as from Moabitis and Cochaba in Basanitis on the other side of Adraa" (Haer 30:18).

Epiphanius (375)
"The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began." (Panarion 29:7:7-8)
"Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed.." (Panarion 30:2:7)
"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis " (On Weights and Measures 15)

Eutychius of Alexandria (10th C)
"Qistus, governor of Jerusalem, died and the city was without any authority or sovereign to govern it. The Jews then arose and rioted and killed James, son of Joseph, known as the “brother of the Lord”, stoning him to death (14). Then they harassed a group of disciples and expelled them from the city. The Christians abandoned Jerusalem, crossed the Jordan and settled in those places (15). Informed of this fact, Nero Caesar sent word to the commander stationed in the East, named Vespasian, to rally his troops and go to Judea with orders to kill all the inhabitants, sparing none, and to destroy the houses." The Annals of Eutychius of Alexandria, ch. 9:

Even more recent Bible scholars agree. Long before that whacked out Darby and his Plymouth Brethren corrupted the church, none of this nonsense you believe was taught. See the below:

Henry Alford"I own that, considering the analogies and the language used, I am much more disposed to interpret the persecution of the woman by the dragon of the various persecutions of the Jews which followed the ascension, and her flight into the wilderness of the gradual withdrawl of the church and her agency from Jerusalem and Judea, finally consummated by the flight to the mountains on the approaching siege, commanded by our Lord Himself." (Greek Test. Notes on Revelation 12:14)
Albert Barnes (1832)
"It is said that there is reason to believe that not one Christian perished in the destruction of that city, God having in various ways secured their escape, so that they fled to Pella, where they dwelt when the city was destroyed." (in loc.)
David Brown (1864)
"That it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem is equally certain; for, when he reports our Lord's prophecy of that awful event, on coming to the warning about "the abomination of desolation" which they should "see standing in the holy place," he interposes (contrary to his invariable practice, which is to relate without remark) a call to his reader to read intelligently -- "Whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matt. xxiv. 15) -- a call to attend to the divine signal for flight, which could be intended only for those who lived before the event." (Hug, page 316)" (Gospel According to Matthew, intro)
"Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains--The ecclesiastical historian, EUSEBIUS, early in the fourth century, tells us that the Christians fled to Pella, at the northern extremity of Perea, being "prophetically directed"--perhaps by some prophetic intimation more explicit than this, which would be their chart--and that thus they escaped the predicted calamities by which the nation was overwhelmed. "
Geneva Bible Notes
"Revelation 12:14 {18} And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her {c} place, where she is nourished for a {19} time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(18) That is, being strengthened with divine power: and taught by oracle, she fled swiftly from the assault of the devil, and from the common destruction of Jerusalem and went into a solitary city beyond Jordan called Pella as Eusebius tells in the first chapter of the third book of his ecclesiastical history: where God had commanded her by revelation.
(c) Into the place God had prepared for her.
(19) That is, for three and a half years: so the same speech is taken in see Geneva (q) "Da 7:25". This space of time is reckoned in manner from that last and most grievous rebellion of the Jews, to the destruction of the city and temple,for their defection or falling away, began in the twelfth year of Nero, before the beginning of which many signs and predictions were shown from heaven, as Josephus wrote, lib.7, chap.12, and Hegesippus lib.5, chap.44, among which this is very memorable. In the feast of Pentecost not only a great sound and noise was heard in the Temple, but also a voice was heard by many out of the Sanctuary which cried out to all, Let us depart from here. Now three and a half years after this defection by the Jews began, and those wonders happened, the city was taken by force, the temple overthrown, and the place forsaken by God: and the length of time John noted in this place. "
John Gill (1809)
"...it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made, and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over to Jordan, as Eusebius says, to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few months after, there was not a Christian in the city . . " (John Gill, on Matthew 24:16).
George Peter Holford
"And it is with reason supposed, that on this occasion many of the Christians, or converted Jews, who dwelt there, recollecting the warnings or their divine Master, retired to Pella, a place beyond Jordan, situated in a mountainous country, whither (according to Eusebius, who resided near the spot) they came from Jerusalem, and settled, before the war (under Vespasian) began. Other providential opportunities for escaping afterwards occured, of which, it is probable, those who were now left behind availed themselves ; for it is a striking act, and such as cannot be contemplated by the pious mind without sentiments of devout admiration, that history does not record that even one CHRISTIAN perished in the siege of Jerusalem." (The Destruction of Jerusalem)

I really encourage everyone to study history as well as the Gospel and get things right. Do not be led astray by the many false doctrines that have crept into the Church these past 180 years or so.

It's not our doctrine that is false. Yours is plain SCREWY! To teach that the Wrath of God has already been poured out in the Tribulation Period of the Siege of Jerusalem in 70AD is FALSE! Also Revelation is Just not about Jerusalem. It's about the whole world of men being punished by God. That is the Tribulation Period of Revelation. I don't know where you get that this has already occurred because we would then be living in the 1000 year period of Christ's reign. When Jesus returns, ALL mankind will know it.

 

[Roadkill]

That's my point, Titus' Army was not destroyed by God as stated in Revelations.