The Rapture
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A-F,
Dove Unscented, LOL
I could live with that. In either event, nothing suggests a massive gap in time.
Beasts, certainly. But where to you get this notion from? John is the only writer who used the term, "antichrist."
Ok, works for me.
Here is where there is much confusion. I think people tend to merge Rev 13 and 2 Thes 2 and yes they are related but distinctly different. Rev 13 paints a picture of the sea beast (Rome) led by Nero and the earth beast, Vespasian who was in charge of Judea in 66 AD came up from the "earth" which represents Israel. The "harlot" who rides the beast in Rev 17 was first century Israel before their desolation. See what Rev 17 says, "T
Nero made war with the saints and overcame them. Nero set fire to Rome in 64 AD and blamed the Christians which led to pagan Rome taking revenge against the Christians of their day killing them by the thousands in the most gruesome ways.
Keep in mind who Revelation was written to (7 churches located in Turkey) and what it was about ("
Put yourself back in their time and to events that had just happened just a few years earlier. Many Christians, including Peter and Paul, lost their lives during this first persecution of Christianity. Among those who also died during Nero's reign include several other NT figures such as Erastus, the chamberlain of Corinth, Aristarchus, the Macedonian, Trophimus, an Ephesian, Barsabas and Ananias of Damascus. In the last year of Nero's reign, Peter was crucified upside down. Paul was beheaded in Rome at the same time. Put yourself in the shoes of those early churches who heard about and/or witnessed all of this happening to their church leaders and founders.
In 2 Thes 2, we have the "Man of Sin" aka, the "Lawless One." This would be Titus as Titus ended the Law making it no longer possible to follow the Law by destroying their temple. Both Josephus and Roman historian, Tacitus, wrote after the war, that there was a prophesy that Messiah would come about the time the second temple was destroyed, "a man from their own nation who would rule the habitable earth." They did not know this prophesy was spiritual as Christ did return and is reigning on earth, instead they wrote, "the only governor of the habitable earth was Vespasian, who conquered it."
Vespasian (father) and Titus (son) shared the same name as one - Titus Flavius Vespasianus an unholy replica of our Father and Son who also share the same name, Lord God!!. Both men were worshipped as God and Titus was worshipped standing at the temple with his idols and ensigns thus fulfilling 2 Thes 2.
Dove Unscented, LOL
I could live with that. In either event, nothing suggests a massive gap in time.
Beasts, certainly. But where to you get this notion from? John is the only writer who used the term, "antichrist."
Ok, works for me.
Here is where there is much confusion. I think people tend to merge Rev 13 and 2 Thes 2 and yes they are related but distinctly different. Rev 13 paints a picture of the sea beast (Rome) led by Nero and the earth beast, Vespasian who was in charge of Judea in 66 AD came up from the "earth" which represents Israel. The "harlot" who rides the beast in Rev 17 was first century Israel before their desolation. See what Rev 17 says, "T
he ten horns that thou didst see upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her in fire"
which is exactly what happened to Jerusalem.
Nero made war with the saints and overcame them. Nero set fire to Rome in 64 AD and blamed the Christians which led to pagan Rome taking revenge against the Christians of their day killing them by the thousands in the most gruesome ways.
Keep in mind who Revelation was written to (7 churches located in Turkey) and what it was about ("
things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things
"). Other things John wrote about were soon to take place ("for the time is nigh!
") as 2,000 year later would not be "nigh." These churches in Turkey were under heavy persecution by the Jews living there, the Greeks and the Romans. Thus John wrote to instruct and comfort them because upheaval was the order of those days throughout the Roman empire, not just in Israel.Put yourself back in their time and to events that had just happened just a few years earlier. Many Christians, including Peter and Paul, lost their lives during this first persecution of Christianity. Among those who also died during Nero's reign include several other NT figures such as Erastus, the chamberlain of Corinth, Aristarchus, the Macedonian, Trophimus, an Ephesian, Barsabas and Ananias of Damascus. In the last year of Nero's reign, Peter was crucified upside down. Paul was beheaded in Rome at the same time. Put yourself in the shoes of those early churches who heard about and/or witnessed all of this happening to their church leaders and founders.
In 2 Thes 2, we have the "Man of Sin" aka, the "Lawless One." This would be Titus as Titus ended the Law making it no longer possible to follow the Law by destroying their temple. Both Josephus and Roman historian, Tacitus, wrote after the war, that there was a prophesy that Messiah would come about the time the second temple was destroyed, "a man from their own nation who would rule the habitable earth." They did not know this prophesy was spiritual as Christ did return and is reigning on earth, instead they wrote, "the only governor of the habitable earth was Vespasian, who conquered it."
Vespasian (father) and Titus (son) shared the same name as one - Titus Flavius Vespasianus an unholy replica of our Father and Son who also share the same name, Lord God!!. Both men were worshipped as God and Titus was worshipped standing at the temple with his idols and ensigns thus fulfilling 2 Thes 2.
The 10 horns explained:
The heads of the sea beast are the heads of the Roman Empire, the Caesars. But the heads of the beast are not just the emperors of Rome. The heads of the beast are those emperors who reigned in the two dynasties that ruled Rome in the first century, the Caesar family dynasty and the Flavian family dynasty. The first six heads are the six emperors of the Caesar family dynasty beginning with the very first, Julius Caesar. Thus the first six heads are the first six Caesars: 1) Julius Caesar 2) Augustus Caesar 3) Tiberius Caesar 4) Gaius Caesar 5) Claudius Caesar 6) Nero Caesar. In Revelation 13:3 the beast is said to have a fatally wounded head. This head is the sixth head, Nero Caesar, who committed suicide in A.D. 68. Nero was the last ruler of the Caesar Family Dynasty. And since Nero had not named his successor, there was a succession struggle resulting in civil war following Nero’s suicide. With Nero’s death, the end of the Caesar Family Dynasty, and the resulting civil war which threatened to collapse the empire at the height of its power, the beast seems to have a fatal wound in Revelation 13:3.
Thus with the sixth head severed this beast appears to be dead with Nero. As will be explained shortly, the seven-headed sea monster of this chapter was certainly not made-up by John. This creature has a name in ancient Jewish and Hellenistic tradition which long predates Revelation’s composition. According to ancient tradition, this many-headed sea beast was known to regenerate severed heads such that two NEW heads would grow up from the stump of the old severed head which explains why the beast is later said to have eight heads in Revelation 17:11 after the sixth is severed. Having received what appears to be a fatal wound, the seven-headed beast appears to die. But it does not stay dead as it grows two new heads in the place of the old sixth head and comes back to life shortly thereafter with the rise of a new family dynasty. The Flavians prevented the empire from collapsing by bringing peace and order back to Rome. Thus under the reign of the Flavians; Vespasian, Titus and Domitian; the beast came back to life.
In the civil war in the year following Nero’s death during which Galba, Otho and Vitellius reigned, these three emperors who were not a part of the Caesar family line are not heads of the beast as the beast was dead at the time as the Caesar family dynasty ended with Nero. The beast then rose from the dead with the rise of the Flavian Dynasty the following year. At this time peace and order was restored to the empire and the beast came back to life. The sixth head of the sea beast then grew two new heads from the neck of the original severed head. These two heads that grew from the neck of the former sixth head are Vespasian and Titus who were both declared Caesar at the same time and shared the same Roman cognomen or formal nickname, Titus Flavius Vespasianus.
So, stop looking for another set of facts in the future such as these. When we have a set of facts perfectly matching John's writings contemporary to him, why should we think he was writing about another period thousands of years later? This makes no sense. We have an unholy father/son combo against or anti to Christ at the time the temple was destroyed thus making them without Law or Lawless.
Thus with the sixth head severed this beast appears to be dead with Nero. As will be explained shortly, the seven-headed sea monster of this chapter was certainly not made-up by John. This creature has a name in ancient Jewish and Hellenistic tradition which long predates Revelation’s composition. According to ancient tradition, this many-headed sea beast was known to regenerate severed heads such that two NEW heads would grow up from the stump of the old severed head which explains why the beast is later said to have eight heads in Revelation 17:11 after the sixth is severed. Having received what appears to be a fatal wound, the seven-headed beast appears to die. But it does not stay dead as it grows two new heads in the place of the old sixth head and comes back to life shortly thereafter with the rise of a new family dynasty. The Flavians prevented the empire from collapsing by bringing peace and order back to Rome. Thus under the reign of the Flavians; Vespasian, Titus and Domitian; the beast came back to life.
In the civil war in the year following Nero’s death during which Galba, Otho and Vitellius reigned, these three emperors who were not a part of the Caesar family line are not heads of the beast as the beast was dead at the time as the Caesar family dynasty ended with Nero. The beast then rose from the dead with the rise of the Flavian Dynasty the following year. At this time peace and order was restored to the empire and the beast came back to life. The sixth head of the sea beast then grew two new heads from the neck of the original severed head. These two heads that grew from the neck of the former sixth head are Vespasian and Titus who were both declared Caesar at the same time and shared the same Roman cognomen or formal nickname, Titus Flavius Vespasianus.
Augustus was the second head of the beast and the first official emperor of Rome.[SUP]12[/SUP] Here the similarities between the virgin birth of Christ and the divine conception of Augustus are interesting. The only begotten Son of God, Jesus was born of a virgin and saw his father as the supreme divinity. Also given the title “Son of God,” Augustus was said to have been miraculously conceived by a serpent—a possible symbol of the devil (Genesis 2).Each head of the beast is said to have a blasphemous name. The Caesars of Rome were often greeted and venerated with divine titles. Roman coins were imprinted with the head of the reigning emperor. Sometimes, as was the case with Augustus, these coins were imprinted with the title Divi F, that is Divi Filius or the Son of God.[SUP]13[/SUP] Caesar was also worshiped in temples of the imperial cult. Inscriptions found in Ephesus label Nero Caesar “Almighty God” and “Saviour” and another inscription found in Salamis gave him the title “God and Saviour.”[SUP]14[/SUP]
The seven-headed beast of Revelation 12 and 13 is most specifically denoted by its healed sixth head, Vespasian, and its seventh head, Titus, whom after coming from Israel where they pursued the woman in Revelation 12 are pictured here making an appearance in Rome to usurp the crown. The fact that this beast is standing on the shore of the sea is another way of saying that it has come up out the Abyss as it had in Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8.[SUP]15[/SUP] As will be discussed later, this is resurrection imagery.
No gaps in the time line.
Satan is the Antichrist. His spirit is in many people, there are many Antichrists. The worldly embodiment of this spirit is centered in the leader of those who want to destroy God's people who are Israel in these times.
These entities who draw power from the material world are focused on the elimination of the people of Israel, who draw their power from the Spirit.
So just as Moses or Joshua, or the Judges, the power of the Spirit is focused on one person, so the power gentile nations is focused on one person.
Just as Moses and Joshua were images of Jesus, so the leader of the gentile nations who wills to destroy Israel is the image spirit of Satan, Antichrist.
The sea beast comes out of the gentile nations. The Roman Empire.
The earth is not exclusively Israel. Who was the earth before Israel?
As the earth is closer to God than the sea (of the gentiles), the earth here would show a religious entity rather than a non religious civil government. But it cannot be Israel exclusively, so it shows a religious entity not necessarily Israel.
The life span of the beasts must be determined to identify the entities. The sea beast is given power over Israel for 3 1/2 times. How long is this time period? Not 3 1/2 years. It is the same time as the iron in the statue of Dan. 2, approx.. So the life span of the sea beast cannot be the life span of one person. The Roman beast, in one form or another, ruled Israel for 2000 years.
The earth beast would appear to fit this same time line. Rising after the sea beast, but existing at the same time, and remaining after the fatal blow is healed to make the image, again seems to take us beyond the lifetime of just one person.
Thanks to you I have changed my view on the woman. The woman is Israel, but the city is still Rome. The woman is Israel after 70 ad. taken to Rome. The fact that the woman and the city are both seen in the wilderness, proves that the city is Rome. The woman was taken captive to Rome which is identified as the post 70 ad Babylon.
The woman after 70 ad is in power with Rome attacking the 7 churches of Asia, and others. She has approval from Rome to attack Israel, but is tormented by Rome also.
The woman is seen being burned by the 10 horns/nations after the 7th head has died. Remember that the lifespan of the iron in the statue of Dan. 2 must align with the lifespan of the sea/earth beast.
The 7 heads are not individual Caesars. They represent the entire lifespan of the sea beast Roman Empire. When the 7th head dies, the Roman Empire falls (476 ad). Then it becomes completely divided (10 kings/toes/horns).
The things that were happening after 70 ad were just the beginning of the 3 1/2 times. The times of the gentiles was just beginning. (No gaps)
Yes, but the Antichrist is not just one person. Tutus was not destroyed by the brightness of His coming. But the line of the Caesars will be.
The iron of the statue in Dan. 2 shows the time line. All the events described in Dan. 2, Dan. 7, and the Rev regarding the beast must happen during the time shown there. So the Caesar/ Antichrist destroyed by the brightness of His coming can only be the Caesar that exists at the end of the toes/horns nations, the Bishop of Rome.
The early Christians expected that Jesus would return shortly after the ToG's had begun. Jesus had said that there would be a time of the gentiles after Jerusalem was destroyed Lk 21:24. Just how long would that time period be? It turns out that it was 1900 years until Jerusalem was restored. no gaps.
Jesus destroyed Jerusalem, the Revelation tells the story of Israel after that (7 trumpets). no gaps.
Jesus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 ad, but it was not the resurrection coming.
There have been a number of predictions surrounding certain dates in recent years. None of them have come to anything apart from making Prophecy Pundits richer. Next Month the 70th anniversary of the state of Israel being created comes around. If nothing of note happens then will the old JW trick be used of finding another date to keep the house of cards upright? 1967 appears to be a good alternative otherwise there is always 1993 when the Yom Kippur war took place. After that things get difficult. I suppose the start of the Intafada could be used.
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You are entitled to your opinion but all eschatologycal sections of scripture must be analyzed together. This you fail to do. Jesus returning in the sky visable to the world causing the people to be very fearful. I don't seem to Remember this happening in history. That then is a future event. Where are all of the tribulation events occurring? They haven't occurred since life on the earth hasn't been threatened with extinction. When did that happen? Therefore end times hasn't happened yet!!
Go back and study ALL eschatologycal scripture and Remember theologians have created 4 seperate Biblical views of end times. This is because Daniel and Revelation are written in symbolic language. Daniel even says it is closed until end times!!
Daniel 12
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.
Revelation must be closed as well!
You think you can open 2 closed books and know for certain what they say.
Here are links to the 4 views of eschatology.
https://www.exploregod.com/biblical-prophecy-four-views-of-the-end-times
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
Introduction to the Four Views
The Time Of The End - Four Views Of The Millennium
Go back and study ALL eschatologycal scripture and Remember theologians have created 4 seperate Biblical views of end times. This is because Daniel and Revelation are written in symbolic language. Daniel even says it is closed until end times!!
Daniel 12
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.
Revelation must be closed as well!
You think you can open 2 closed books and know for certain what they say.
Here are links to the 4 views of eschatology.
https://www.exploregod.com/biblical-prophecy-four-views-of-the-end-times
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
Introduction to the Four Views
The Time Of The End - Four Views Of The Millennium
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Another one trying to say 70AD was the end time.Isaiah says that Jesus would then rule in a new Jerusalem that descends from heaven and his throne will be in Jerusalem. This after the world sees him descending in the sky. Where is he?
You 70AD people always ignore parts of the prophecy. Quit leaving parts of eschatology scripture out of the discussion. You thus bend scripture to fit your beliefs. The full scripture MUST BE USED in deciding what it means.
ALL SCRIPTURE NOT PARTS OF THE SCRIPTURE!!
You 70AD people always ignore parts of the prophecy. Quit leaving parts of eschatology scripture out of the discussion. You thus bend scripture to fit your beliefs. The full scripture MUST BE USED in deciding what it means.
ALL SCRIPTURE NOT PARTS OF THE SCRIPTURE!!
The Son of man Jesus has come the veil is rent. Only one outward demonstration as thatseen the temporal was promised. Before he left he left clear instruction to those look for another demonstration as if God was a man as us. When Christ as the Son of God (no form) comes he will come as he did the first time....out of sight
6 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore,if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold,the new has come 2 Corinthians 5:16
No fleshly Jesus.We walk by faith the unseen eternal and not by sight as that seen the temporal
It is why the Amil position, no literal thousand years flows the best. It recognizes that our supernatural God (no human nature)remains without beginning of Spirit life or end of Spirit life.
God is not ahuman; He has no parents as a beginning.
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2 Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the third temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Paul never mentioned any other temple than the one that was standing when he wrote - you errortics are inserting that "third temple" into his words - this is a sure sign of a failed "theology".
Paul never mentioned any other temple than the one that was standing when he wrote - you errortics are inserting that "third temple" into his words - this is a sure sign of a failed "theology".
2 Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the third temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Paul never mentioned any other temple than the one that was standing when he wrote - you errortics are inserting that "third temple" into his words - this is a sure sign of a failed "theology".
Paul never mentioned any other temple than the one that was standing when he wrote - you errortics are inserting that "third temple" into his words - this is a sure sign of a failed "theology".
The Bible says the Beast will stand in the Holy place declaring himself to be God. The Abomination of Desolation is seen in the Holy Place. According to this thinking the Holy Place HAS to be a TEMPLE therefore one has to be built for it to be desolated.
The major problem is that no mention of a Temple is made in the text and in any case any Temple that was built would not be Holy. Israels Temples were Holy because God was present in them. When Christ left the second Temple he left it desolate and never returned. If you trace the idea of an image being worshiped in the OT you find in Daniel an image set up by Nebuchadnezzar. He set it up on a Plain not in a Temple. In Luke the mention of the Abomination found in Matthew is replaced by Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies. Jerusalem is known as a Holy City but in Revelation it is known spiritually as Babylon the Great. So you have in symbols a Holy City becoming an unholy one. A spiritual Babylon.
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Many people have shown you the scripture in Heb 1:2 where Paul says that he is living in the last days.
What is your reply? Do you say that Paul was wrong?
The new Jerusalem seen descending is in Rev 21. This takes place after the heavens and earth fly away in ch 20, after Jesus returns and after the last judgment.
The city descends after Jesus comes, not before.
It says every eye will see Him, it doesn't say, sees Him descending.
Rev 19 does not show Jesus returning to planet earth. It only says that heaven is opened and that He is seen. To say that He is returning to earth from that scripture is an assumption.
Rev 19 is showing the victory of the gospel sword over the Roman Empire.
Every eye shall see Him is symbolic of Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem. Every Israelite knows that Jesus is the Messiah when Jerusalem falls in 70 ad.
An unfounded accusation that you continue to make without specific references to the disagreement.
What is left out? Can you be specific about your accusations so that we know what you are talking about? It's too hard to guess.
.....................................
What is your reply? Do you say that Paul was wrong?
The new Jerusalem seen descending is in Rev 21. This takes place after the heavens and earth fly away in ch 20, after Jesus returns and after the last judgment.
The city descends after Jesus comes, not before.
It says every eye will see Him, it doesn't say, sees Him descending.
Rev 19 does not show Jesus returning to planet earth. It only says that heaven is opened and that He is seen. To say that He is returning to earth from that scripture is an assumption.
Rev 19 is showing the victory of the gospel sword over the Roman Empire.
Every eye shall see Him is symbolic of Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem. Every Israelite knows that Jesus is the Messiah when Jerusalem falls in 70 ad.
An unfounded accusation that you continue to make without specific references to the disagreement.
What is left out? Can you be specific about your accusations so that we know what you are talking about? It's too hard to guess.
.....................................