The Rapture

abcdef · May 1, 2018

Your post started out with such promised. I almost "liked" it but then you ended bad, LOL. Please read my last post - every word - I beg you.

But to your first point, you are correct. I was re-reading Polycarp, the oldest church writer after the disciples and a disciple himself of the Apostle John. Look what he has to say about Christ's reign.

Polycarp 2:1

Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth,
forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many,
for
that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from
the dead and gave unto him glory
and a throne on His right hand;
unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that
are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth
service; who cometh as
judge of quick and dead; whose blood God
will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.

Here we see Christ is already reigning over the Earth. He doesn't need to come here to do it. As you said, we would all be dead if He did. Too bad about the "earth" being destroyed. Guess He won't have it as His footstool anymore and we don't get to reign there. Sad

.

Ecc 1:4

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Which earth is it that abides forever?

garee · May 1, 2018

abcdef said:

I would offer The other one that was created when the first one was. Two Genesis's when they both were created.

We do not know Christ after the corrupted rudiments of this world after the oral traditions of men by the philosophy of man. the rudiments of flesh and blood will not enter the Kingdom of God. But rather a incorruptible world. No need for the temporal dying Sun and moon as time keepers to provide light. The glory of God which lit up the first three days before he corrupted this creation will be the eternal light in the new heavens and earth

abcdef · May 1, 2018

garee said:

Brother garee,

I would agree that the eternal dwelling place of man, the heavenly earth, is the one that dwells forever. We won't need these stars and suns of the heavens that we have now, once we are standing in the glory of Jesus. Praise Jesus, all glory to Him.

This world with it's lusts is passing away. But we look for a new heavens and earth, where righteousness dwells.

abcdef · May 1, 2018

PlainWord said:

No they didn't!! They foretold the end of Israel, see Deu 28. But first, look at the YLT:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]

and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

I can see why you would think this but Peter was not discussing the end of the planet, just the end of Israel. Yours is a poor translation but its really more of the way they talked and the figurative language they use that's the main problem. We read literature that is 2,000 years old, written with their lexicons but instead of understanding it as they intended, we understand it the way we would intend it had we written those words today. This mistake has caused so much confusion.

Let's say the US, the UK, Australia, Switzerland, any country, was going to end in less than 20 years. 93% of the population was to be killed and the remaining 7% hauled off into slavery with virtually nobody from the country remaining. It would be the end of our world, wouldn't it? But the planet goes on.

The world "earth" can also be translated "land." The "land" in the Bible is almost always the particular country that is being discussed - in this case Israel. Thus Peter is writing about the end of Israel, a topic of great importance and interest to him as it would be to us if our country was about to be destroyed.

"Works" can be deeds but back then it could also mean "something built with hands" like the temple and great buildings. If I were living in 69 AD and pointed out the temple and surrounding buildings to you I might say, "Look at these great works, the most impressive works in the world." This is exactly the way Josephus referred to them also, see:

Now although any one would justly lament the destruction of such a work as this was, since it was the most admirable of all the works that we have seen or heard of, both for its curious structure and its magnitude, and also for the vast wealth bestowed upon it, as well as for the glorious reputation it had for its holiness; yet might such a one comfort himself with this thought, that it was fate that decreed it so to be, which is inevitable, both as to living creatures, and as to works and places also.

for besides their notion that all their hopes were cut off, in case these their works were once burnt, the soldiers were greatly ashamed

The works that belonged to the four legions were erected on the west side of the city.

So, here are 5 examples of Josephus, a contemporary to Peter, using "works" to describe various structures, especially the temple. Was the temple burned down with all of its element by fire? The Jews themselves in that day knew that God was going to destroy their temple by fire. It was foretold to them in their sacred writings which I will show you in a minute. But first, another term we frequently get wrong is "end of the age." Too often the "end of the age" is translated the "end of the world." Let me show you 4 translations of the same passage, KJV, NKJV, NIV and YLT.

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

`Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Notice Young's uses "presence" instead of "coming?" Interesting, isn't it? I love the KJV but in this example, it gives a completely different message than the other 3 translations. It was an "age" coming to an end, not the world. Would you agree? So what is an age? Here's the first definition give by Dictionary.com:

AGE: the length of time during which a being or thing has existed;length of life or existence to the time spoken of or referred to:

What were they discussing the end of in Mat 24:1-2? What time frame was in view? Can we agree that the disciples associated the return of Christ with the end of an age? Would the end of Israel be considered an "end of their age?" Again, how did they talk back then. Again let's look at Josephus:

So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon.

Wow, a fellow Jew, just a few years younger than the disciples uses the term "age" to define the end of Israel as the complete "revolution of ages." The second temple was destroyed on the exact same day as the first temple. They had come full circle. If this doesn't help you, I give up.

Brother PW,

You know that I agree with you about many things related to the 70 ad time period. The "end of the age" meaning the temple age in Matt 24, etc.. The heavens and earth passing at the dest of Jerusalem.

But there is a time after 70 ad, an age after 70 ad. The kingdom age.

The kingdom/church did not end in 70 ad. The kingdom age reaches beyond 70 ad.

Try to recognize the scriptures surrounding this time period. Such as the times of the gentiles and the restoration of Jerusalem at the end of that time.

We think that we are in the mill/kingdom/church now, but what happens at the end of the mill/kingdom/church? (Rev 20)

We must see beyond 70 ad, the prophecies were not all fulfilled by that time, recognizing the differences and placement in the time line is the key to making it all fit.

PlainWord · May 1, 2018

Lucy-Pevensie said:

So God is going to destroy literal heavens and earth, huh? How do you handle Ecc 1:4? Also, if He destroys everything, where are we going to be in the interim before He creates new ones? There are 3 passages that tells us the earth will remain forever.

PlainWord · May 1, 2018

abcdef said:

Ah, yes, we are in the Kingdom Age now. Of course there is life beyond 70 AD as we are living proof. Again, I am not a full preterist in that I still see a couple of things not fulfilled but the bulk of it was fulfilled in 70 AD. The passage in Rev 20 after the thousand years, I agree, is future.

Since the Church is the New Jerusalem (the beloved city) by definition, the church gets surrounded by evil attempting to destroy it. This "fire" God sends down to destroy them I believe is yet future along with the resurrection of the damned (including those just consumed). This is where you have your GWT. The rest of Rev 21-22 have already happened and our dead brothers and sisters are already there as we are in spirit and will be in soul when we die.

shrume · May 1, 2018

PlainWord said:

If that is true, he is doing a terrible job.

I truly do not understand how anyone can hold to Preterism.

abcdef · May 1, 2018

PlainWord said:

Yes the majority was fulfilled. It is a few things that are not fulfilled that are happening now, which is the restoration of Jerusalem. (1967 if you can accept it)

The preterists will tell you that it is not. They will say that it is the 70 ad Jerusalem. But a close examination of the time line and circumstances surrounding the events shows that it cannot be the 70 ad Jerusalem.

The Rev 20 passage shows events from the #1 resurrection Jesus, until the #2 resurrection of His coming for the kingdom. The kingdom age on planet earth.

Jesus rules the kingdom from heaven. The souls from the #1 resur rule through their writings which are the scriptures, the Word of God.

At the end of the kingdom age, the #2 resur followed by judgment and eternity.

The kingdom/church is the new living Jerusalem. Living stones built up for Him, for His temple.

If we maintain that in the other passages in the Revelation are about the material city, why would we change in this passage?

The thought that this is the kingdom/church that is surrounded comes from the preterist thought that Jesus is finished completely with the flesh and material Jerusalem, so that the Church replaces Israel.

But that is proven false by the fact that their is now an Israel and they have complete military control over Jerusalem, ending the times of the gentiles.

The fire is the stone striking. Then the wheat/chaff judgment.

When the #2 resurrection happens, the dead rise, then we who are alive are caught up. But then the resurrection of the unjust also happens, except that everyone who is living and not caught up to Jesus will die a physical death when the stone/fire strikes (within the hour), then they are judged.

Again, the preterist version says that, to satisfy the preconceived time line ending in 70 ad.

Rev 21-22, is showing the eternal world of the new living heavens (God the Father), the new living earth (Jesus), and the new living Jerusalem/kingdom/church (souls redeemed).

So in eternity, there is no death, no darkness, we are completely surrounded by God and His love.

Amen brother, I'll meet you there.

CS1 · May 1, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Fallacy ? hmmmm. You know that in Christian orthodoxy , Pre, Mid, and Post tribulation Rapture are supported by Scripture .
It is not fallacy to have the imminent of Christ Return. The Context of the Return of the Lord is found in Acts 1:9-11

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

What was said in these verses speaks to the Return of the Lord. here is what we do know from this Verses.
1. Jesus was literally taken up in the air
2. The disciples witnessed HIM going UP literally
3. HE will Return just as HE left literally

IN addition Jesus Himself spoke of HIS return Matt Matthew 24:4-5; 11; 23-27) Matthew 24:30-31, Luke 17:28-30.

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (Matthew 25:13)

You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Luke 12:40)

these last verses with many of them , is how the doctrine of IMMINENCE is taught.

I like the term “Dynamic tension”

The issue is we are to live our Life unto the Lord each Day as those HE is Coming today and have the Patience of a 1000 YEARS. Those who over stress the Coming will move to the hills and live like a hermit “ were waiting for the return of the Lord”. Yes bury your Gift (Matt 25:14-30) Or you take the stands “we have a lot of time “. Both are error:
We are to:

Occupy to He comes
Preach the Gospel
Live our life before the lost
Be ready for His return

There is scripture to support each pre, mid and post Rapture or no Rapture, but the teaching of IMMINENCE leave the issue of when will the Rapture happen to Be ready today and work , and have the patience’s for the long hull. FYI People there is not one day Promised to US, we could be gone today.

Have you made the most of it ? If you die today will the Lord Account of your life produce something ?

PlainWord · May 1, 2018

A-F,

I find no scripture that calls for the restoration of Israel following it's desolation in 70 AD. There is no scripture dealing with Hitler and the mass murder of 6 million Jews either.

Some point to the Crusades which began in 1071 AD. Not sure I buy into that. I think it is still future, but that is one of the few, if not only, passage left to fulfill.

I reject this theory. I don't see Jesus "coming for the kingdom" as we are in the kingdom now. There is no visible kingdom age on planet earth. However, there is a spiritual kingdom age on earth and we are in that age now.

Eternity happens once we physically die. This is when we enter the spiritual realm where the saints who went ahead are.

Because the physical city "Babylon" which was Jerusalem was destroyed earlier in Revelation. It could be today's Jerusalem in Rev 20. I'm open to that.

Jesus is finished with material Jerusalem. God broke the covenant with sinful Israel when He destroyed her. The Church doesn't replace Israel because the true Israel was first the believing, accepting Israel. We Gentile believers were grafted in with them. The Church began as Jewish, remember?

No, now you are placing 70 AD after the thousand year reign. The fire coming down I believe is future. The wheat/chaff was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. John the Baptist teaches this in Mt 3 when he tells the Pharisees what will become of them.

The stone from Dan is was Christ/Christianity. It smashed pagan Jerusalem in 70 AD then filled Rome in 300s AD when Christianity became the official religion of Rome. Keep in mind back then, everyone referred to Rome as "the habitable earth" like nothing outside the Roman Empire mattered and in fact the Bible does not mention any nation outside of the statue nations.

Not so good buddy. The wicked dead only rise at that time. The passage is clear, the rest of the dead rise then. The "rapture" was a 70 AD event. Living saints get to heaven immediately upon death with their fully glorified bodies as a reward. It is appointed for all men to die. No one gets a free pass from physical death, except the two mentioned.

Yes, the eternal state is the afterlife. It exists now and will continue forever and we get to go there upon death.

PlainWord · May 1, 2018

shrume said:

You don't understand the nature of the kingdom then. Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John puts it this way:

Polycarp 2:1

Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth,
forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many,
for
that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from
the dead and gave unto him glory
and a throne on His right hand;
unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that
are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth
service; who cometh as
judge of quick and dead; whose blood God
will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.
[SUB][/SUB]

Endoscopy · May 2, 2018

abcdef said:

You keep saying Jesus is ruling in the sprit world. But you ignore what Jesus said about his return. Explain away this quote of Jesus. I take his word over yours all the time.

Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I previously posted Isaiah saying He will rule from his throne on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem not in the spirit world. All scripture not your cherry picked ones.

Endoscopy · May 2, 2018

Here is Isaiah again about where Jesus will rule from. On Mt. Zion in Jerusalem not the spirit world!!

Isaiah 24 AMPC

21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

PlainWord · May 2, 2018

abcdef said:

The third rock from the sun.

PlainWord · May 2, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Use the literal translation.

Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

The "tribes of the land" = The "Tribes of Israel."

When was He pierced?
Who pierced Him?
When would He need to return for those who pierced Him to see Him?

No, Isa 24 says "He reigned" past tense.

And confounded hath been the moon, And ashamed hath been the sun, For reigned hath Jehovah of Hosts In mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, And over-against His elders -- honour!

This agrees with the passage I showed you before from Psalms 146. There are at least 4 passages in the OT that clearly states God reigns from Zion, including your Isa 24. I did a key word search on "reign" and "Zion" and here are the results.

4 Bible results for “zion reign.” Showing results 1-4.

Bible search results

Psm 146:10

Jehovah doth reign to the age, Thy God, O Zion, to generation and generation, Praise ye Jah!

Isa 24:23

And confounded hath been the moon, And ashamed hath been the sun, For reigned hath Jehovah of Hosts In mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, And over-against His elders -- honour!

Isa 52:7

How comely on the mountains, Have been the feet of one proclaiming tidings, Sounding peace, proclaiming good tidings, Sounding salvation, Saying to Zion, `Reigned hath thy God.'

Mic 4:7

And I have set the halting for a remnant, And the far-off for a mighty nation, And reigned hath Jehovah over them in mount Zion, From henceforth, and unto the age.

Again, please understand the connection God of the OT had to His people. He was called, "the God of Israel" for a reason. But He wasn't just the God of Israel, He is God over the whole planet and creation. To think God cannot, and does not, reign unless He sits on some earthly throne is contrary to scripture.

Psm 47:8 God hath reigned over nations, God hath sat on His holy throne

When and where did this take place? Was this a future or past or ALWAYS event? Is God going to trade in His heavenly throne for an earthly throne EVER!?!?!

Act 17:24

God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,

GOD DOTH NOT DWELL IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS!!!

You might want to reconsider your interpretation of Isa 24 that you've been using to invent a literal reign of God on Earth.

PlainWord · May 2, 2018

KJV Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

NKJV Mat 24:30

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

YLT Mat 24:30

and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory

Which country of the earth in the Bible had tribes? Would it make sense for the 12 Tribes of Israel to mourn after they put their Messiah to death upon His return to mourn realizing the mistake they made? Would they still need to be alive in order to mourn?

The nature of Christ's presence, fully glorified, coming near Jerusalem in 70 AD to punish her is the exact same as God's presence when He came in the 6th century BC to punish Egypt, Babylon, Edom and Israel.

PlainWord · May 2, 2018

Heavenly anomalies are used in the OT to describe God's divine punishment against wicked nations. We know this as "Day of the Lord." The language used would cause the causal observer to think the world, and perhaps universe, were coming to an end. But this wasn't the case. There have been four separate "Days of the Lord" in antiquity found in the OT. In each of the four cases, four specific nations fell under God's wrath and judgment. Here they are:

Fall of Judah in 6th Century BC

Jer 4:23-28:

I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]For thus says the Lord:“The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For this shall the earth mourn,
And the heavens above be black,
Because I have spoken.
I have purposed and will not relent,
Nor will I turn back from it.

The Fall of Egypt in 6th Century BC

Eze 32:7-8:

When I put out your light,

I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you,
And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God.

The Fall of Babylon in 6th Century BC:

Isa 13:9-13:

Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

The Fall of Edom in 6th Century BC:

Isa 34:4-5:

All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The sword of the Lord is filled with blood

So, when Jesus uses the same heavenly anomalies in Mat 24:30, we should expect that He is discussing divine punishment and not a literal collapse of the universe. Again, it is how they talked and understood things that matters, not how we apply them or think of them literally. Now, there were definitely signs in the heavens preceding judgment, but they are exaggerated. This is called, "apocalyptic literature" which was very popular in those days.

From the time Jesus utters the below in 30-33 AD what was the next major country in the world at that time to fall? Keep in mind that Rome, Israel and Egypt were the world's riches and strongest nations at that time. In 2 Thes 2, instead of calling it the "day of the Lord" Paul calls the coming destruction of Israel as "the Day of Christ." History shows the wait was not long, less than 20 years, from when Paul said this.

Fall of Israel in 70 AD:

Mat 24:29:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

2 Pet 3:10:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up

.
Rev 6:

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

PlainWord · May 2, 2018

tanakh said:

Brother Tanakh,

I promised to get back to you on this. Our views are not all that different on many things. Your thinking is so close to spot on. I don't want to sound haughty or smarter because I'm not. I just figured out something first that I want to share with you and that is the nature of "Parousia" but first let's discuss your point concerning future judgment.

I concede that there is likely a future judgment coming. Wickedness has gotten to a point that I don't think God can ignore it much longer. Every time an age ends, it is ended by judgment. But, the likely future judgment is not mentioned or taught in the Bible. An age, is really nothing more than an era, as they thought of it in antiquity. An age ended in 597 BC when Babylon carried Judah away and left her Land desolate for 70 years. Josephus makes it clear that this is how ancient Jews thought of it and they thought of it the same way in 70 AD as they were being destroyed.

War 6-4-5:

So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon..

Thus, in 70 AD, Josephus recognizes that the "full revolution of the ages" had come. This is the identical language used by the disciples when they queried Christ about when the temple would be destroyed. Looking at the impressive buildings behind a massive wall sitting across the Kidron Valley they thought back at what Christ had told them, that there would not be one stone left upon another. This seemed incredible to them so they wanted to know when it would take place and they associated it with the end of their age. But they also knew a new age was beginning, the "Kingdom Age" or Messianic Age. The disciples DID NOT ask about any other topic such as the end of the cosmos. Why would they? Jesus never discussed the destruction of the planet or universe prior to this.

When Jesus answers, He specifically addresses their question and does not add additional topics. He answers in the same apocalyptic language that was used in the OT and they were familiar with it. See my last post.

Now we come to the topic of Parousia. It means "presence" it does not mean "come or coming." I have copied and pasted the below written by Mike Rogers, one of my mentors. Christ's Parousia is with us now, this is what sets us Christians apart and defines the Kingdom Age we are in. I truly hope you study this and give it all due consideration.

“Parousia literally signifies ‘a being with,’ ‘a presence.’ Not infrequently it is so rendered. It thus denotes a state, not an action. We never read of a parousia to, always of a parousia with.”
[SUP]5[/SUP]
It means “the state of being present at a place, presence;”
[SUP]6[/SUP]
“to be present.”
[SUP]7[/SUP]
The “state” of interest to the disciples was the Messianic age that would replace the Mosaic age.

Antonyms often help clarify the meaning of words. The opposite of parousia is not “going” as opposed to “coming,” but “absence” versus “presence.” Paul shows this by placing his “presence” (parousia) in opposition to his “absence” (apousia; Phil. 2:12). His contrast was not between two point-in-time verbs—“coming” and “going”—but between two states of being designated by the nouns “presence” and “absence.” This conforms well to what Milton Terry says: “The word [parousia] . . . means presence as opposed to absence.”
[SUP]8[/SUP]

Some literal translations of the Scriptures recognize this definition. They translate parousia as “presence.” The McReynolds English Interlinear supplies “presence” for every occurrence of parousia. “The Revised Version, in every instance where it does not put presence into the text as the representative of parousia, inserts the marginal note, ‘Gr. Presence,’ thus affirming that such is its real meaning.

abcdef · May 2, 2018

PlainWord said:

Brother PW,

Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

This verse points to a time when all these things will cease.

-----

This points out the difference between the verses about the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the planet by fire.

See how God says that he will not destroy the earth by water again Gen 9:15.

In this thought 2 Pet 3:1-13, 7, 10, 12, Peter relates to the flood and the end of the planet by fire. See how it is stated that the heavens and the elements are "dissolved" and "melted".

The elements are earth, water, air, and fire in that time period. In the flood, the element water was given power over the other elements. Peter is showing that the fire is given power over the waters, air (heavens), and earth, to dissolve them.
When he says dissolve, it means bringing to an end, as pointed out in Gen 8:22.

The "everything completed by 70 ad" theory has this as the destruction of Jerusalem. But that is where the interpretation has been created to fit the preconceived time line that everything must end by 70 ad.

You see, the apostles knew Jerusalem would be destroyed by Jesus using the armies of Rome. They knew that there would be a time period after that when the gentile nations would have authority over Jerusalem (ToG's). They Knew that when the ToG's had ended that Jerusalem would be restored. And they knew that there would be a resurrection. They also knew that this planet would end in fire and that Gen 8:22 would be fulfilled.

What they didn't know was how long the events described would take to happen. Like, how long would the times of the gentiles last, how long would Jerusalem be trampled by the gentile nations until it is restored? The captivity in Babylon was only a generation or two. It may be that they were expecting a short time, say 20-100 years or so.

When the Bible uses a lot of symbolism, it can be hard to separate the subjects from one another. The sun and moon being darkened, the stars falling, are good examples of how people have trouble understanding the literal from the symbolic meaning.

When it comes the the descriptions of the dest of Jerusalem in the Bible this is a problem. Mostly because the letters are rather short and written from a position of anticipation, without having a complete understanding of the time line periods lengths.

So Peter, writing about coming events, had a great knowledge of the coming events, but the exact time line was not known.

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Now we read what Peter said, is he talking about the 70 ad dest? or the end of the planet? 2 Pet 3:1-13. Maybe he thought that the events surrounding the end of the planet would come sooner, closer to 70 ad.

This is one place where the preconceived idea that "everything must end/be fulfilled by 70 ad" timeline distorts the meaning.

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Brother,

This is a problem that must be resolved to understand.

Separating the coming of Jesus in 70 ad to destroy Jerusalem, and the #2 resurrection.

The #2 resurrection did not happen around 70 ad, it has yet to happen. The thought that the resur took place by 70 ad is a result of the misguided preconceived "70 ad finished" theory.

abcdef · May 2, 2018

Endoscopy said:

Brother Endoscopy,

I'm sure that you agree that Jesus in ruling from the eternal throne of David in heaven right now. Jesus is in His glory on that throne. He left that glory and came to this earth, where He suffered and died.

Will Jesus again, leave the throne of glory behind? Leave His glory behind? Not be glorified for a thousand years?

You are saying that Jesus will bring His glory with Him, the throne of God, to this material world where He will rule in a material Jerusalem on planet earth.

But no man can see His face and live Ex 33:20. So everyone on earth would be dead if that were to happen.

What happens when the material planet meets the face of Jesus is shown in Rev 20:11, They fly away from His face because they are not perfect, but constantly changing in a state of decay.

Only that which is perfect can remain in His presence and see His face, or God would become imperfect.

Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This shows the end of the times of the gentiles where Israel is restored to Jerusalem. Also see Lk 21:20-24, 24.

Matt 24:1-2, The prophecy Jesus makes about the temple of His time, which was fulfilled in 70 ad.

24:3, The questions about when the prophecy about the 70 ad temple will be fulfilled.

24:4-5, Warning about false Christ's to come before the destruction.

24:6-8, Description of events before the destruction of 70 ad.

24:9-14, Persecution of the apostles. This was spoken to the 4 apostles present at the time Mk 13:3, and fulfilled by them.

24:15, The AoD of Daniel happens before 70 ad., to satisfy the requirement in Daniel that Jesus is involved in the time line/period. It cannot happen in the future because it has already been fulfilled. No gaps in the timeline.

24:16-21, Those in Judea are to flee when the Romans are coming to destroy Jerusalem and Israel Lk 21:20, surrounding the city. The great trouble is the time after Israel/Judea flee, after 70 ad. The times of the gentiles 70 ad-1967 Lk 21:24.

24:22, If the time was not shortened, no flesh (natural branches) of Israel would be saved alive to restore Jerusalem and end the ToG's.

24:23-26, Warning about false Christs.

24:27, The coming of Jesus at the dest of Jerusalem will be plainly seen, like lightning.

24:28, Death is coming at that time. Jerusalem, not the planet.
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24:29, Immediately after the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad, the lights of God's word through Israel will be greatly dimmed.

24:30,The sign appears first, the sign is Israel returning from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem at the end of the times of the gentiles. See Lk 21:24.

24:30, The nations mourn when they see Jerusalem beginning to be restored. But this is not instant, there is time between these events, the sign, the mourning, and seeing Him. Apparently years.

24:31, This verse show a gathering, where previous verses have shown a scattering. But it is not the 7th trumpet gathering, it is the 5th trumpet of separation, calling on Israel to separate themselves from the gentile nations and return to Jerusalem. The 5th trumpet shows that they are driven out of the gentile nations, as they were well settled into place. Poland, Germany, Eastern Europe, etc.

24:32-33, As the kingdom/church of Israel began to grow in number, the natural branches were cut off. The result was that all the branches suffered, mainly at the hands of Rome (1900 yrs).

24:34, The apostle John lived to see the destruction of 70 ad, and the beginning of the ToG's.

24:35, Heaven and earth passed away for Israel. Shown at the 6th seal.

24:36, This verse was true when Jesus said it. But after receiving all power in heaven and earth, then He had to know the time, or He didn't receive "all power". He showed us in the Revelation, what His plans are.

I didn't want to "cherry pick".

Heb 12:18-24, We have not come to a material Mount Sion, or a material Jerusalem, as it says here. We have come to a spiritual mountain.

Heb 9:1, The first covenant had material things and ordinances. You want to hang on to these material things, as some do with the Law and Prophets.

Do you think that they will hold services and go through rituals to please Jesus? Maybe after services we'll all go have a chicken dinner pot luck once a month. Maybe it will be just like the Vatican, all fancy and all. Except instead of the Bishop of Rome, we can put Jesus there and go through the rituals there.

Oh wait, He will be in His glory, and we will see His face, is that a problem?

The Rapture

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