The Rapture

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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can you show me these other resurrections prior to the first in rev 20:4-6???????
Sure thing:

Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection - 1 Cor.15:23

The Church - John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-53 - Resurrected prior to the seven years

The male child/144,000 - Rev.12:5 - Caught up in the middle of the seven years

The two witnesses - Rev.11:11 - Resurrected in the middle of the seven years

The great tribulation saints - Rev.20:4-6 Resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age
 
Apr 23, 2017
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Sure thing:

Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection - 1 Cor.15:23

The Church - John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-53 - Resurrected prior to the seven years

The male child/144,000 - Rev.12:5 - Caught up in the middle of the seven years

The two witnesses - Rev.11:11 - Resurrected in the middle of the seven years

The great tribulation saints - Rev.20:4-6 Resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age
rev 12:5 seems to be talking about Jesus.

Rev 11:11 this is true they are raptured.

its just that 1 cor 15:23 only mentions two parts of the first resurrection not 5 or 4
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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NOW, let me EXPOSE how flawed your Twilight Zone Theology really is:


Zechariah 14:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
Ever hear of erosion? Literally I'm sure the "plain" between the two humps of the Mt. of Olives has filled in a lot in the past 2,000 years. Having been there several times I can tell you that the Mt. of Olives is not very big. Thus any valley between the two humps could not have been very deep or long either. Besides the literal fulfillment of a road allowing the people to flee, there is a deeper meaning.

As I said, Zechariah uses the same apocalyptic poetic literary style filled with figurative language as do the rest of the major and minor prophets. Look back to Zec 4.

[FONT=&quot]6 So he answered and said to me:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:
‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’
Says the Lord of hosts.
7 ‘Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

You have to become familiar with all of Zechariah and not just one chapter as Zechariah used this imagery before. In the above the angel tells Zechariah that Zerubbabel will receive divine assistance to rebuild the temple. The adversaries in Jerusalem in those days following Babylonian captivity were fiercely against the Jews returning and rebuilding their temple. As "mountain" often symbolizes "nation" in all the major prophets, thus "making a mountain a plain" would be the same as saying "rendering the opposing nation impotent to stop the Lord's work."

To explain the rest of Zec 14 would take too long and I doubt you would read or understand it anyway.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Ever hear of erosion? Literally I'm sure the "plain" between the two humps of the Mt. of Olives has filled in a lot in the past 2,000 years.


Don't even go there! Talk about an desperate apologetic! There is no way in the world that Christ already toughed down on the Mount Olives as described in Zech.14. When Jesus does this, it will be the end of the age, all of the nations will be gathered together, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have already taken place, the antichrist will have already gone through his reign and on and on and on. When did the nations beat their swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks and not train for war anymore?

You guys never quit! Erosion, that's pretty pathetic.

 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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rev 12:5 seems to be talking about Jesus.

Rev 11:11 this is true they are raptured.

its just that 1 cor 15:23 only mentions two parts of the first resurrection not 5 or 4
No! Rev.12:5 is the male child being "caught up" before the dragon can devour him. Jesus does not fit the criteria in that he was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended. The male child is caught up like the living church. In fact the same word "harpazo" is used to describe their being caught up.
 

J7

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Apr 2, 2017
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Re Zechariah 14

Not something I've studied, but the Assyrians attacked and wiped out the Northern Kingdom circa 731BC. I think there were several waves of invasions and it took place over a few decades.

In 701BC they turned their attention on Judah and Jerusalem.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Siege_of_Jerusalem


It appears there was a big earthquake in 700BC - so that would make sense. Assyria wiped out the Northern Kingdom and then came for Judah, the remnant of Israel, but obviously God stopped that invasion in its tracks.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Ever hear of erosion? Literally I'm sure the "plain" between the two humps of the Mt. of Olives has filled in a lot in the past 2,000 years. Having been there several times I can tell you that the Mt. of Olives is not very big. Thus any valley between the two humps could not have been very deep or long either. Besides the literal fulfillment of a road allowing the people to flee, there is a deeper meaning.

As I said, Zechariah uses the same apocalyptic poetic literary style filled with figurative language as do the rest of the major and minor prophets. Look back to Zec 4.

6 So he answered and said to me:
“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:
‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’
Says the Lord of hosts.
7 ‘Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!


You have to become familiar with all of Zechariah and not just one chapter as Zechariah used this imagery before. In the above the angel tells Zechariah that Zerubbabel will receive divine assistance to rebuild the temple. The adversaries in Jerusalem in those days following Babylonian captivity were fiercely against the Jews returning and rebuilding their temple. As "mountain" often symbolizes "nation" in all the major prophets, thus "making a mountain a plain" would be the same as saying "rendering the opposing nation impotent to stop the Lord's work."

To explain the rest of Zec 14 would take too long and I doubt you would read or understand it anyway.
Have you ever hear of Literal Interpretation. I believe GOD is intelegent enough to say what HE means, and Means what HE says.

God makes it obvious when He, is using SYMBOLISM, and When HE IS SPEAKING LITERALLY. Flattening the Mountains is a LITERAL, and Zechariah, is not using imgagery. EVERY WORD COMES FROM GOD.

Revelation 16:20-21 (RSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and great hailstones, heavy as a hundred-weight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague.


2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
 
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J7

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Apr 2, 2017
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Kings 19
[FONT=&quot]32 “Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city, shoot an arrow there, come before it with a shield, or cast up a siege ramp against it. 33 By the way that he came, by the same he shall return; he shall not come into this city, says the Lord. 34 For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]35 That very night the angel of the Lord set out and struck down one hundred eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians; when morning dawned, they were all dead bodies. 36 Then King Sennacherib of Assyria left, went home, and lived at Nineveh. 37 As he was worshiping in the house of his god Nisroch, his sons Adrammelech and Sharezer killed him with the sword, and they escaped into the land of Ararat. His son Esar-haddon succeeded him.[/FONT]
 
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popeye

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Sure thing:

Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection - 1 Cor.15:23

The Church - John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-53 - Resurrected prior to the seven years

The male child/144,000 - Rev.12:5 - Caught up in the middle of the seven years

The two witnesses - Rev.11:11 - Resurrected in the middle of the seven years

The great tribulation saints - Rev.20:4-6 Resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age
rev 20 does not say they came to life after the second coming.

That is niv.incorrect. [FONT=&quot]4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]They came to life[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.[/FONT]

The KJV says 4 [FONT=&quot]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/FONT]

The greek literal is THEY-LIVE ezhsanezEsanG2198

To read the niv one would conclude,as did it's authors that there is a resurrection after the devil is chained.

Now lets tie this in

Rev 7;13 [FONT=&quot]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Note that the innumerable number (5 foolish virgins) are already in heaven BEFORE the 144k are sealed.

That is consistant with the end of the church age and the time of the gentiles fulfilled.

Under a post trib "first resurrection of the church" you have the dead in christ resurrected after the gathering by Jesus in rev 14 (probably Jews but could be a mixture)

Note also,that John is seeing elders and martyrs at the same time (rev 20) .

So,the 'they" lived could be referring to both groups.[/FONT]
 
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popeye

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Also,note how the niv brackets the " came back to life" of verse five as if to point out that the first " lived" should be what they believe,and not just what is actually there

Those martyrs in rev 20 are one and the same of the innumerable number of rev 7

Rev 20 is showing their martyrs reward,not a post trib resurrection
 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Was the Gospel preached to all the world before the end of Israel in 70 AD in fulfillment of this verse?

Mat 24 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Paul seems to think so:

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


Was Paul being literal? By the time he made this claim, did every creature on the planet receive the Gospel? Maybe, just maybe, Paul was speaking about the known world to him. Was there any early church leader to confirm this? There sure was. Writing about the period after the ascension but before the invasion of Rome, Eusebius writes:


Chapter 3: The Doctrine of Christ soon spread throughout All the World

1.Thus, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world; and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures, the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

2.In every city and village, churches were quickly established, filled with multitudes of people like a replenished threshing-floor. And those whose minds, in consequence of errors which had descended to them from their forefathers, were fettered by the ancient disease of idolatrous superstition, were, by the power of Christ operating through the teaching and the wonderful works of his disciples, set free, as it were, from terrible masters, and found a release from the most cruel bondage. They renounced with abhorrence every species of demoniacal polytheism, and confessed that there was only one God, the creator of all things, and him they honored with the rites of true piety, through the inspired and rational worship which has been planted by our Saviour among men.

3.But the divine grace being now poured out upon the rest of the nations, Cornelius, of Cæsarea in Palestine, with his whole house, through a divine revelation and the agency of Peter, first received faith in Christ; and after him a multitude of other Greeks in Antioch, to whom those who were scattered by the persecution of Stephen had preached the Gospel. When the church of Antioch was now increasing and abounding, and a multitude of prophets from Jerusalem were on the ground, among them Barnabas and Paul and in addition many other brethren, the name of Christians first sprang up there, as from a fresh and life-giving fountain.

4.And Agabus, one of the prophets who was with them, uttered a prophecy concerning the famine which was about to take place, and Paul and Barnabas were sent to relieve the necessities of the brethren.

Oh no, a major blow to the futurists. See how important it is to understand the way first century Christians talked? Their way of saying things is not the same as ours 2,000 years later.
 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Kings 19
32 “Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city, shoot an arrow there, come before it with a shield, or cast up a siege ramp against it. 33 By the way that he came, by the same he shall return; he shall not come into this city, says the Lord. 34 For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David.”
35 That very night the angel of the Lord set out and struck down one hundred eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians; when morning dawned, they were all dead bodies. 36 Then King Sennacherib of Assyria left, went home, and lived at Nineveh. 37 As he was worshiping in the house of his god Nisroch, his sons Adrammelech and Sharezer killed him with the sword, and they escaped into the land of Ararat. His son Esar-haddon succeeded him.
Exactly!!! Did God fight against Egypt and Babylon also? Of course He did.
 
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popeye

Guest
No! Rev.12:5 is the male child being "caught up" before the dragon can devour him. Jesus does not fit the criteria in that he was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended. The male child is caught up like the living church. In fact the same word "harpazo" is used to describe their being caught up.
It says the male child will rule with a rod of iron.

Male child = Jesus.

He was caught up in acts." Raptured"
 

J7

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Well tbh, I don't think it is this PW. Zechariah & Kings don't really match.

Zechariah was written around 520BC apparently.

Scratches head. Stumped
 
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popeye

Guest
Was the Gospel preached to all the world before the end of Israel in 70 AD in fulfillment of this verse?

Mat 24 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Paul seems to think so:

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


Was Paul being literal? By the time he made this claim, did every creature on the planet receive the Gospel? Maybe, just maybe, Paul was speaking about the known world to him. Was there any early church leader to confirm this? There sure was. Writing about the period after the ascension but before the invasion of Rome, Eusebius writes:


Chapter 3: The Doctrine of Christ soon spread throughout All the World

1.Thus, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world; and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures, the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

2.In every city and village, churches were quickly established, filled with multitudes of people like a replenished threshing-floor. And those whose minds, in consequence of errors which had descended to them from their forefathers, were fettered by the ancient disease of idolatrous superstition, were, by the power of Christ operating through the teaching and the wonderful works of his disciples, set free, as it were, from terrible masters, and found a release from the most cruel bondage. They renounced with abhorrence every species of demoniacal polytheism, and confessed that there was only one God, the creator of all things, and him they honored with the rites of true piety, through the inspired and rational worship which has been planted by our Saviour among men.

3.But the divine grace being now poured out upon the rest of the nations, Cornelius, of Cæsarea in Palestine, with his whole house, through a divine revelation and the agency of Peter, first received faith in Christ; and after him a multitude of other Greeks in Antioch, to whom those who were scattered by the persecution of Stephen had preached the Gospel. When the church of Antioch was now increasing and abounding, and a multitude of prophets from Jerusalem were on the ground, among them Barnabas and Paul and in addition many other brethren, the name of Christians first sprang up there, as from a fresh and life-giving fountain.

4.And Agabus, one of the prophets who was with them, uttered a prophecy concerning the famine which was about to take place, and Paul and Barnabas were sent to relieve the necessities of the brethren.

Oh no, a major blow to the futurists. See how important it is to understand the way first century Christians talked? Their way of saying things is not the same as ours 2,000 years later.
Lets just say a detective has a suspect. All evidence obtained nails this guy. It is conclusive.

One problem. He died the day before the crime.

That is futurist view. Those events described in the GT have not happened.

Just look at what you guys have to make up to account for those holes a ship could sail through
 
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popeye

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Lets just say a detective has a suspect. All evidence obtained nails this guy. It is conclusive.

One problem. He died the day before the crime.

That is futurist view. Those events described in the GT have not happened.

Just look at what you guys have to make up to account for those holes a ship could sail through
EDIT;
Lets just say a detective has a suspect. All evidence obtained nails this guy. It is conclusive.

One problem. He died the day before the crime.

That is HISTORICIST view. Those events described in the GT have not happened.

Just look at what you guys have to make up to account for those holes a ship could sail through
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Have you ever hear of Literal Interpretation. I believe GOD is intelegent enough to say what HE means, and Means what HE says.

God makes it obvious when He, is using SYMBOLISM, and When HE IS SPEAKING LITERALLY. Flattening the Mountains is a LITERAL, and Zechariah, is not using imgagery. EVERY WORD COMES FROM GOD.

Revelation 16:20-21 (RSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and great hailstones, heavy as a hundred-weight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague.


2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Did you really say Zechariah doesn't use imagery?

1. What about the 4 horses, were they literal?
2. What about the vision of the 4 horns which scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem? Did two cows chase the people away?
3. Did a man really measure Jerusalem with a measuring line?
4. Was Christ really a BRANCH?
5. Did Joshua's stone really have seven eyes?
6. Did Zechariah really see a lampstand with olive tree bookends?
7. Was there a real flying scroll that went out and cursed the earth?
8. Was there really a wicked woman in a literal basket being carried by two woman with wings of storks who set her down in Shinar? Did that actually happen?
9. Were their four chariots with different colored horses which went to and fro across the earth?
10. Did God literally send a whirlwind to scatter the people?
11. Did Tyre really have literal power in the sea? What was it?
12. Was Judah really bent into God's bow?
13. Was the Lord really visible over them with arrows like lightening?
14. Was Jerusalem really turned into a very heavy stone?
15. Did all the horses go blind and their riders go insane?
16. Can land really cry?
17. Do swords really sleep?
18. Did a literal shepherd get struck scattering literal sheep?

This is just some of the imagery found in the first 13 chapters of Zechariah. Hopefully you recognize most, if not all of the above as figurative language? So now that we come to the 14th chapter, why suddenly does everything turn literal in your mind?



 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Lets just say a detective has a suspect. All evidence obtained nails this guy. It is conclusive.

One problem. He died the day before the crime.

That is futurist view. Those events described in the GT have not happened.

Just look at what you guys have to make up to account for those holes a ship could sail through
Nothing you wrote refutes anything I quoted. Paul said every creature heard the Gospel and Paul died before 70 AD. 4th century Bishop of Caesaria agreed with Paul. Were both men insane? Were they flat out liars? Or maybe, the problem is with your understanding? Just a thought detective.

The GT was over 1900 years ago. I know you weren't around to witness it but those who were and wrote about it declared it to be the worst any nation had ever endured, period!!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Ever hear of erosion? Literally I'm sure the "plain" between the two humps of the Mt. of Olives has filled in a lot in the past 2,000 years. Having been there several times I can tell you that the Mt. of Olives is not very big. Thus any valley between the two humps could not have been very deep or long either. Besides the literal fulfillment of a road allowing the people to flee, there is a deeper meaning.

As I said, Zechariah uses the same apocalyptic poetic literary style filled with figurative language as do the rest of the major and minor prophets. Look back to Zec 4.

6 So he answered and said to me:
“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:
‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’
Says the Lord of hosts.
7 ‘Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!


You have to become familiar with all of Zechariah and not just one chapter as Zechariah used this imagery before. In the above the angel tells Zechariah that Zerubbabel will receive divine assistance to rebuild the temple. The adversaries in Jerusalem in those days following Babylonian captivity were fiercely against the Jews returning and rebuilding their temple. As "mountain" often symbolizes "nation" in all the major prophets, thus "making a mountain a plain" would be the same as saying "rendering the opposing nation impotent to stop the Lord's work."

To explain the rest of Zec 14 would take too long and I doubt you would read or understand it anyway.

DO you skip over words a lot when you read the BIBLE? Everything from just a few miles north of Jerusalem all the way down to Rimmon (En-rimmon) south of Jerusalem, will be flattened into a plain. Rimmon was due west of the Narrow part of the Dead Sea.