So let me ask a question here...It does have to do with the question at hand. Who is 'he that lets'? and Where is the antichrist in your stance on the when of the rapture? 2 Thessalonians 2
The Rapture
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PlainWord you are in another dimension dude. What are you talking about?
Jesus returned in 70A.D. he says.
If Jesus really returned back then, WHY ARE WE NOT IN THE NEW JERUSALEM? The millennial kingdom ended ~1000 years ago and we are now in eternity. WHY IS THERE STILL SUFFERING AND DEATH IN THIS WORLD?
Jesus returned in 70A.D. he says.
If Jesus really returned back then, WHY ARE WE NOT IN THE NEW JERUSALEM? The millennial kingdom ended ~1000 years ago and we are now in eternity. WHY IS THERE STILL SUFFERING AND DEATH IN THIS WORLD?
If you haven't read Josephus, I encourage you to do so before you go your whole life like VCO thinking that the great tribulation is future.
My pastor is older than you and he would disagree with you, so the age argument doesn't fly.
I have read Matthew 24 many times, and you say it mentions nothing of Him staying on earth, well how about:
Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
That certainly mentions it. How do you explain that? Let me guess, the foot touch the mount of olives and go right back up and bring a spiritual presence of some sort? And the escaping there is escape from sin or something
I have read Matthew 24 many times, and you say it mentions nothing of Him staying on earth, well how about:
Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
That certainly mentions it. How do you explain that? Let me guess, the foot touch the mount of olives and go right back up and bring a spiritual presence of some sort? And the escaping there is escape from sin or something
Here is the writings of Hegesippus where he discusses Daniel's prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e., the great tribulation) and the "Abomination of Desolation. Guess you guys are going to have to revisit your thinking on this since Hegesippus was perhaps the earliest church historian (110-180 AD, died in Jerusalem).
[FONT="]"It is not a wonder," he said, "Iohannes, if you persist all the way to the destruction of the city, since divine aid has already abandoned it. But it is a wonder that you do not believe it is about to be destroyed, since you may read the prophetic books, in which the destruction of our country has been announced to you and and the restored greatness again destroyed by the Roman army. For what else does Daniel shout? He prophesized not indeed what had already been done but what would happen.
What is the abomination of devastation which he proclaimed would be by the coming Romans, unless it is that which now threatens? What is that prophecy, which has been often recalled by us announced by God on high, that the city would be utterly destroyed at that time, when its fellow tribesmen will have been killed by the hands of the citizens, unless that which we see now being fulfilled? And perhaps, because it no longer pleases for the temple polluted with forbidden blood to be defended, it pleases that it be cleansed by fire."[/FONT]
[FONT="]"It is not a wonder," he said, "Iohannes, if you persist all the way to the destruction of the city, since divine aid has already abandoned it. But it is a wonder that you do not believe it is about to be destroyed, since you may read the prophetic books, in which the destruction of our country has been announced to you and and the restored greatness again destroyed by the Roman army. For what else does Daniel shout? He prophesized not indeed what had already been done but what would happen.
What is the abomination of devastation which he proclaimed would be by the coming Romans, unless it is that which now threatens? What is that prophecy, which has been often recalled by us announced by God on high, that the city would be utterly destroyed at that time, when its fellow tribesmen will have been killed by the hands of the citizens, unless that which we see now being fulfilled? And perhaps, because it no longer pleases for the temple polluted with forbidden blood to be defended, it pleases that it be cleansed by fire."[/FONT]
My pastor is older than you and he would disagree with you, so the age argument doesn't fly.
I have read Matthew 24 many times, and you say it mentions nothing of Him staying on earth, well how about:
Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
That certainly mentions it. How do you explain that? Let me guess, the foot touch the mount of olives and go right back up and bring a spiritual presence of some sort? And the escaping there is escape from sin or something
I have read Matthew 24 many times, and you say it mentions nothing of Him staying on earth, well how about:
Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
That certainly mentions it. How do you explain that? Let me guess, the foot touch the mount of olives and go right back up and bring a spiritual presence of some sort? And the escaping there is escape from sin or something
Are we discussing Mat 24 or Zec 14? The two passages are not the same. Zec 14 dealt with the Maccabean Wars of the Second century BC. You seem to be struggling in much the same way as VCO, Popeye and others. You simply do not understand how to read poetic prophetic language which heavily employs colorful figurative language which is often called "apocalyptic language" which was popular for centuries. Zechariah in particular is loaded with this writing style. If you don't understand this you are going to literally see flying scrolls, women in baskets being carried by storks, and stones with 7 eyes, etc.
You can learn about this writing style here and other places:
http://bibleresources.americanbible.org/resource/apocalyptic-writing
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Proof? The chapter sounds pretty permanent to me. Because being in the Holy Land as we speak, there aint no great valley.
I have NEVER heard anyone say that Zechariah 14 is about Maccabean wars of 2nd century BC. But lucky for you im an open minded fella and would like to ask you to present why you believe it to be so.
I have NEVER heard anyone say that Zechariah 14 is about Maccabean wars of 2nd century BC. But lucky for you im an open minded fella and would like to ask you to present why you believe it to be so.
If you look at the Mount of Olives you will see a dip between two summits. I noticed it right away when I was there in '15. You can see it better in this picture from the 1800s.
A road used to run in this valley as you can see. The valley has since filled in over the past 2,200 years which is not unusual. Being in the Holy Land I'm sure you have seen many excavations of old cities, like Jericho which were buried 50-100 feet down?
Look at the passage more closely:
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
When the Seleucid army entered Jerusalem for the second time, they killed many Jews, plundered Jerusalem and lit the city on fire and took many captives (Maccabees 1:29-40). According to verse 38:
38 The people of Jerusalem fled in fear, and the city became a colony of foreigners. Jerusalem was foreign to its own people, who had been forced to abandon the city.
This fulfilled Zec 14:5. The chapter ends like this:
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
The Canaanites disappeared from the holy land, when? The late second century BC.
A road used to run in this valley as you can see. The valley has since filled in over the past 2,200 years which is not unusual. Being in the Holy Land I'm sure you have seen many excavations of old cities, like Jericho which were buried 50-100 feet down?
Look at the passage more closely:
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
When the Seleucid army entered Jerusalem for the second time, they killed many Jews, plundered Jerusalem and lit the city on fire and took many captives (Maccabees 1:29-40). According to verse 38:
38 The people of Jerusalem fled in fear, and the city became a colony of foreigners. Jerusalem was foreign to its own people, who had been forced to abandon the city.
This fulfilled Zec 14:5. The chapter ends like this:
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
The Canaanites disappeared from the holy land, when? The late second century BC.
This from Eusebius, the 3rd century Bishop of Caesarea (Church History, Book 3, Chapter 7):
1.It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2.His words are as follows: Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
3.The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.
4.These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:
5.If you had known, even you, in this day, the things which belong unto your peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you, that your enemies shall cast a rampart about you, and compass you round, and keep you in on every side, and shall lay you and your children even with the ground.
6.And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And again: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
7.If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.
8.Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour's passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
He clearly knew that Christ was speaking of 66-70 AD events in Mat 24.
1.It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2.His words are as follows: Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
3.The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.
4.These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:
5.If you had known, even you, in this day, the things which belong unto your peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you, that your enemies shall cast a rampart about you, and compass you round, and keep you in on every side, and shall lay you and your children even with the ground.
6.And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And again: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
7.If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.
8.Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour's passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
He clearly knew that Christ was speaking of 66-70 AD events in Mat 24.
The parable of the 10 virgins is prophecy.
The down side of having Bibles that divide the Books into Chapters and Verses is that it tends to lead to tunnel vision. Matthew Chapter four is a case in point. There is a fixation with it that seems to ignore chapters 23 and 25 as if they dont exist. Also the idea of comparing 24 with Mark 13 and Luke 21 doesnt seem to ever occur to anyone.
So you think the Plymouth Brethren were a CULT?
What is it about their BELIEFS do think makes them a CULT?
Here is their Statement of Faith. NOW POINT OUT THE CULT STATEMENTS.
Is Belief in the RAPTURE the only reason why you call them a CULT?
I really want to know how many of us you are throwing the stones at, after YOU wrote CULT on them.
There is the link, if you want to read the rest. I had to shorten it to make it fit.
Over the years I was involved is several IFCA Churches (we moved a lot) so here is the IFCA Statement of Faith:
Now how about Posting your Church's Statement of FAITH to respond to this?