The Rapture

[valiant]

LOL, now that is a twist on the Scritures that I have never heard before, I thought for sure you were on our side of this issue. How come so few can accept that GOD LITERALLY CAN and in this case DOES mean exactly what He Says.

Revelation 7:1-8 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, restraining the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then I saw another angel rising up from the east, who had the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were allowed to harm the earth and the sea:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "Don't harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of the sealed:

1. 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:
2. 
   12,000 sealed from the tribe of Judah,
3. 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
4. 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
5. 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
6. 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
7. 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
8. 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
9. 12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
10. 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
11. 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12. 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
13. 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.

How much more LITERALLY SPECIFIC could HE get?

But it was a book of signs as it says at the beginning (it was 'signified, given by signs'). It was not intended to be taken literally. It was intended to convey the future in signs. That is why it has had a word for all ages.

 

[Issachar92]

He is merely indicating longevity at a time when everlastingness was unknown.

This worries me the most. Why couldn't God tell Isaiah that its eternity, that word is used elsewhere in the old testament, everlasting is used as well.
So everlastingness really wasn't unknown then, this interpretation is very shaky.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well the Holy Spirit has taught me differently. He as turned me from dispensationalism to the one church view (Eph 2.11-22). I have been taught by Him (and man others have been taught by Him too) that the 144.000 is actually also the church which no man can number, numbered by Him and sealed by Him.

and this ties in with what He showed the apostles

Now that is interesting and revealing at the same time. You said about that "the 144,000 is actually also the church which no man can count." Did anybody see that number of 144,000 that Valiant listed in front of the claim that "no man can count?"

On the contrary Valiant, the number is 144,000 which you yourself listed in your post. And, the Holy Spirit did not teach you that this group as being the church. We know this because scripture reveals who they are, in detail.

"I heard the number of those who were seal, (let Valiant pay attention) 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel.

After John says this, he then proceeds to give a detailed account of the 144,000 breaking them down to 12,000 per tribe.

And after that in Rev.14, the scripture is consistent with the same number being--You guessed it--144,000. Wow! Imagine that!

Therefore, how can you say that it is an unknown number?

12 X 12,000 = 144,000

The only way that you can get the scripture to not mean 144,000 is to spiritualize the number and ignore the face value of the number, just like you do with the literal thousand years of Christ's.

Another reason that the 144,000 can't be representing the church, is because it would put the church as being on the earth in the middle of the seven years during the time of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

I knew there was a reason why I had you on ignore. If you continue with these false teachings, never repenting, you will held accountable for any that you have deceived.

If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.

 

[Issachar92]

Now that is interesting and revealing at the same time. You said about that "the 144,000 is actually also the church which no man can count." Did anybody see that number of 144,000 that Valiant listed in front of the claim that "no man can count?"

Oh but remember Israel is the Church and the Church is Israel, the book of revelation just happens to spend multiple lines describing the amount and tribes very specifically to confuse the uninitiated fools who think that it means what it says, its all spiritual and nobody knows how much 144 000 really is, its probably church age believers and it could even refer to something that happened in *drumroll* 70A.D.

 

[KJV1611]

Anybody wanna amillennialize these texts:
(btw, how do you decide what to allegorize and what not to?)

Is this the millenial kingdom?:

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Is the throne in heaven or on earth?:

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Where are they ruling?

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Another thing I NEVER understood is WHY in the world should anyone spiritualize the 1000 years? That just doesn't seem smart. You are spiritualizing a number that is repeated many times in chapter 20 for no reason at all?

Just for the record, I believe Isaiah 65:20 is the milennial kingdom and I also believe the 1000 years are literal.

 

[KJV1611]

THE REMNANT of ISRAEL are the 144,000 JEWS, 12,000 from each Tribe, and God Seals those mortal Jews from harm, so that they can repopulate ISRAEL, thereby HE continues HIS everlasting Covenant with ISRAEL giving them the Land of Canaan forever.

NO THE CHURCH never did become the 144,000 by becoming spiritual Israelites. That is a fairy tale.

Paul and the people alive during Paul's time were a remnant of Israel, are they part of the 144,000?

Romans 11:5 KJV
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[KJV1611]

They will look on Him Whom had returned that they had pierced. Combining both chapter 12 & 14 in Zechariah places the Lord in the near future; it is hardly referring to the past of His crucifixion.

When He does battle against those remaining nations of the world as prophesied, His feet will touch down on Mount of Olives which will cleave the mountain in two creating a valley as He will be coming back with the "pre raptured" saints to do battle.

The Mount of Olives was not cleaved in two creating a valley when Jesus was crucified so this takes place in the near future.

John 19:33-37 KJV
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
[34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
[35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

[36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
[37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

These things were one done so that the scripture should be fulfilled...
What things were done?
What scriptures were fulfilled?

 

[KJV1611]

Joel 2:31 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

Have any of you guys ever noticed that the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the day of the Lord COMES... how does this fit into the 7 year trib scheme of things?

 

[KJV1611]

Acts 2:16-20 KJV
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
[20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter said that Pentecost was the fulfillment of:
1) God pouring out his spirit on all flesh.
2) Showing wonders in heaven and signs in the earth - blood, and fire and vapour of smoke.
3) The sun being turned to darkeness and the moon into blood.

Why would anybody believe Joel 2 is future? Peter said it happened at Pentecost.

 

[VCO]

because I disagree with you LOL

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

 

[KJV1611]

Joel 1:5 KJV
Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

Do you guys know what the new wine is? The new wine in Joel 1:5 is the same new wine in Luke 5:38.

Luke 5:38 KJV
But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

It's also the same wine as here:

Acts 2:13 KJV
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

 

[VCO]

Paul and the people alive during Paul's time were a remnant of Israel, are they part of the 144,000?

Romans 11:5 KJV
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

GOD has kept a Remnant of faithful Israelites in every age. The 144,000 are a special REMNANT that WERE SEALED FROM HARM, sometime in the Last 3.5 years of the Antichrist's reign of terror, just before Christ's SECOND COMING, to make War on the Nations and start His 1000 year Kingdom as HE Reigns over the World from David's Throne.

7:4 One hundred and forty-four thousand. A missionary corps of redeemed Jews who are instrumental in the salvation of many Jews and Gentiles during the Tribulation (vv. 9-17). They will be the firstfruits of a new redeemed Israel (v. 4; Zech. 12:10). Finally, Israel will be the witness nation she refused to be in the OT (see notes on Rom. 11:25-27). all the tribes of the children of Israel. By sovereign election, God will seal 12,000 from each of the Twelve Tribes, promising His protection while they accomplish their mission.


The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

7:4 I heard how many were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of the people of Israel: Unlike occasions where John was shown a multitude of countless beings described as “ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands” (Revelation 5:11) and “a large crowd from every nation, tribe, people, and language. No one was able to count how many people there were” (Revelation 7:9), in this case, John heard an exact number of people who would have this seal of God on their foreheads. The number was 144,000, which was comprised of twelve thousand members from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. During this period of tribulation, these 144,000 would be sealed by God, so the entire world would know to Whom they belonged, and no one would be able to harm them (Revelation 9:4). There are some commentators who reject a literal interpretation of this group as being specifically 144,000 in number or Jewish in identity, and they instead consider this group to include the entire sum of believers on the earth during this time of judgment. However, rarely is the Book of Revelation so clear and precise in its wording as it is in this passage, so it seems most logical in such cases to adhere to a literal interpretation. Furthermore, most commentators tend to speculate about the significance of this group even though the Bible has very little to say about it. In reality, once the sealing has taken place, no more mention of this group is made until chapter fourteen, where we are given a little more detail about the character of those who comprised this group but are still told little about why they were ultimately singled out.


Easy-To-Read Commentary Series, The - Easy-to-Read Commentary Series – Revelation: Tribulation and Triumph.

7:4-8. John heard the names of 12 tribes with 12,000 from each tribe... sealed and thus protected. The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend.
Attempts have been made to identify the 12 tribes here with the church, mostly to avoid the implication that this is literally Israel. The fact that specific tribes were mentioned and specific numbers from each tribe were indicated would seem to remove this from the symbolic and to justify literal interpretation. If God intended these verses to represent Israel literally, He would have used this means. Nowhere else in the Bible do a dozen references to the 12 tribes mean the church. Obviously Israel will be in the Tribulation, and though men do not know the identification of each tribe today, certainly God knows.


The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

This company of the 144,000 can be identified without any speculation whatsoever. To me it is almost nonsense for any group to claim that they are the 144,000. Two cults did that in their beginnings, but then they passed 144,000 in membership. Apparently, they were not very optimistic when they started out. They say they take it literally, but they have a problem, now that they have passed that number. They should have gone out of business when they got to 144,000, but they didn't.
This number does not refer to any group in existence today, nor does it refer to the church. During the Great Tribulation, 144,000 are going to be saved "out of every tribe of the children of Israel."


Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

 

[KJV1611]

GOD has kept a Remnant of faithful Israelites in every age. The 144,000 are a special REMNANT that WERE SEALED FROM HARM, sometime in the Last 3.5 years of the Antichrist's reign of terror, just before Christ's SECOND COMING, to make War on the Nations and start His 1000 year Kingdom as HE Reigns over the World from David's Throne.

That's interesting! The 144,000 were the firstfruits unto God, do you have an opinion on what that means?

Revelation 14:4 KJV
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[KJV1611]

That's interesting! The 144,000 were the firstfruits unto God, do you have an opinion on what that means?

Revelation 14:4 KJV
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Sorry, I missed where you said they were the firstfruits of a new redeemed Israel.

 

[Jackson123]

I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS

Rapture happen after antichrist being reveal, is not before tribulation.

I believe antichrist proclaim himself as a God in the tribulation time, then rapture happen, than wrath time, wrath may only take a day, God able to kill the whole world in a second.



2 Thessalonians 2
The Man of Lawlessness


2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,[a] 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction,[c] 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God

 

[KJV1611]

Obadiah 1:15-16 KJV
For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
[16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Another good passage on the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord for the heathen is a time when the heathen drink upon HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN. Didn't the heathen start to drink from his holy mountain when Jesus came the first time?

 

[Bladerunner]

Oh but remember Israel is the Church and the Church is Israel, the book of revelation just happens to spend multiple lines describing the amount and tribes very specifically to confuse the uninitiated fools who think that it means what it says, its all spiritual and nobody knows how much 144 000 really is, its probably church age believers and it could even refer to something that happened in *drumroll* 70A.D.

who says Israel is the church, it was not God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. I bet it was some preterist who first of all is lying to themselves, then they are calling God a liar, then they telling you the same lie they told themselves.

Revelation is not strictly a symbolic Book like they would have you to believe.It is God's words and you are NOT listening.. If you would listen, to some of these teachers around here, that you laugh at, they might just help you save your soul. I really don't think you know the gravity of what you are doing or do you? If you do then you are trying to bring everybody that will listen down with you. Misery loves company.

If this shocks you GOOD!,,,,maybe it will Shock you into listening to AW and the others. I know your peers are trying to tell you we are in the tribulations or at the very least just simply waiting for Jesus to come the second time. Oh by the wiay, it will be only spiritual... and that MANkind can control his own destiny. Yes You can,,You have a choice to make. Does your Soul go to Hell or does it go to Heaven...

And one other thing about 70AD....everything you can come up with that is on this side of a fairy tale, is false about 70AD,,,You have no idea of what that history was or at least do not show it.....

 

[Bladerunner]

No, Paul talked about the remnant in his day,that there was even some at that time. a 144,000 is a very small number amongest the Isralites to be saved when God said he will save all of them when the time comes. The 144,000 have been put aside since the Isralites settled in the land God Gave them.

It is apparent that you do not understand that Paul was speaking to the Baby Church and not the Israelis.
the word "remnant" was spoken 540 times throughout the Bible..Now for Pauls use of the word, which one are you talkinga bout,,,Acts, or Romans.

 

[Bladerunner]

But it was a book of signs as it says at the beginning (it was 'signified, given by signs'). It was not intended to be taken literally. It was intended to convey the future in signs. That is why it has had a word for all ages.

WHo are all these people that have decided that the Word of GOD is only conveyed to all in Signs. The Word of GOD,,,, the WHOLE BOOK.

 

[Ahwatukee]

WHo are all these people that have decided that the Word of GOD is only conveyed to all in Signs. The Word of GOD,,,, the WHOLE BOOK.

Hey Bladerunner,

Because by doing so, it allows them to apply any interpretation that supports their position. By spiritualizing you can make God's word mean whatever you want. For example, their claim that the number 144,000 is an unknown number, even though it is made known to them. Or the thousand years that Satan is bound and that Christ reigns, as not being a literal thousand years, even though it is proclaimed "a thousand years" six times.

It is the fulfillment of the following:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

It is the signs of the end my friend.