Study on Apostasy.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

properly, as a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank (such passages in the Sept. as 2 Samuel 12:30; 1 Chronicles 20:2; Psalm 20:4 (); Ezekiel 21:26; Zechariah 6:11, 14 (yet cf. 2 Samuel 1:10 Complutensian, Lagarde LXX), perhaps justify the doubt whether the distinction between στέφανος and διάδημα (which see) was strictly observed in Hellenistic Greek): Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:17; John 19:2, 5; Revelation 4:4, 10; Revelation 6:2; Revelation 9:7; Revelation 14:14; with a genitive of the material, ἀστέρων δώδεκα, Revelation 12:1; the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in the public games (cf. BB. DD. under the word ): 1 Corinthians 9:25, cf. 2 Timothy 2:5.

b. metaphorically, α. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: ὁ τῆς δικαιοσύνης στέφανος, the crown (wreath) which is the reward of righteousness, 2 Timothy 4:8; with an epexegetical genitive in the phrases λαμβάνεσθαι, διδόναι τόν στέφανον τῆς ζωῆς, equivalent to τήν ζωήν ὡς τόν στέφανον, James 1:12; Revelation 2:10; κομίζεσθαι τόν τῆς δόξης στέφανον, 1 Peter 5:4; λαβεῖν τόν στέφανον τίνος, to cause one to fail of the promised and hoped for prize, Revelation 3:11. β. that which is an ornament and honor to one: so of persons, Philippians 4:1; στέφανος καυχήσεως (see καύχησις, 1 Thessalonians 2:19 (Proverbs 12:4; Proverbs 16:31; Proverbs 17:6, etc.).

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

So, in other words . Salvation ( as in being one with the Lord for eternity ) must be earned by what we do. That's a major violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and it is called works-righteousness.

I see 2 aspects of "salvation' -

1) sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe on Christ with our hearts - sealed until the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 and Eph. 4:30.

2) being saved from the things in this life that can occur - like not living or experiencing peace even though we have the peace of Christ. If we don't believe it or are taught wrong - then we will not experience the saving of our soul ( which means life ).

Does this mean we go to hell because we are not experiencing this life which is really ours in Christ? This is where the works of the flesh can wreck our lives while on this earth and there are many warnings about this.

What it boils down to is that some think we lose our salvation ( as in being joined s one spirit with the Lord for eternity because of His work on the cross and resurrection ) and others don't. Some think that they need to "do things" to keep themselves saved. Some think that Christ is our Savior.

Let each person have their own faith before God....

...BLess you...have a good night. I am off to dream land!

Do you consider faith a work?

samuel23 · Apr 23, 2017

Of course a christian can "fall away", folks jump through hoops trying to make the bible fit a particular persuasion. One of the things that will happen before the return of christ is a great falling away(apostasy) from the faith, Christians will believe that God did not keep His word about the pre-trib rapture, and in despair they will turn away from God. I see Christians trying to make their position such that they win no matter if they run the race or not, the bible teaches no such thing, he who overcomes shall inherit all things. We overcome by keeping the faith, and we keep the faith by an act of our will. We made a decision to follow God, we still have a free will so we can make a decision to stop following God, when someone does that it is called apostasy...nothing complex here, it is simple.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

So, in other words . Salvation ( as in being one with the Lord for eternity ) must be earned by what we do. That's a major violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and it is called works-righteousness.

I see 2 aspects of "salvation' -

1) sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe on Christ with our hearts - sealed until the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 and Eph. 4:30.

2) being saved from the things in this life that can occur - like not living or experiencing peace even though we have the peace of Christ. If we don't believe it or are taught wrong - then we will not experience the saving of our soul ( which means life ).

Does this mean we go to hell because we are not experiencing this life which is really ours in Christ? This is where the works of the flesh can wreck our lives while on this earth and there are many warnings about this.

What it boils down to is that some think we lose our salvation ( as in being joined s one spirit with the Lord for eternity because of His work on the cross and resurrection ) and others don't. Some think that they need to "do things" to keep themselves saved. Some think that Christ is our Savior.

Let each person have their own faith before God....

...BLess you...have a good night. I am off to dream land!

I just cannot read scripture like you do highlighted in red. For when i see soul i do not take that as mortal life i see it as eternal life

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

samuel23 said:

I know its simple to me because i see the only way one can apostate is to had been a believer. If they was a false believer or non believer then it couldn't be called apostasy.

We have scriptures of people who had the Spirit and chose apostasy.

zone · Apr 23, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

faith is a gift which leads to works. this is just so simple.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

For God created faith to be used as free will in all his creation. And when that choice occurs we are given a helper to help us grow in faith. But the Spirit does not take our free will and we can also grow weak in faith if not exercised. Saving Faith isnt a gift to be given to some and not others.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

zone said:

Well since your saying salvation and faith are the gift of God. Let's look at Ephesians 2:8 in context. We see its obvious Ephesians 2 is all focused on grace and salvation. Really all of Ephesians is focused on grace. This should be one warning that ephesians 2:8 may not be speaking on both faith and salvation as the gift. Paul had to include faith because part of how grace is to be given. But Paul was focusing on grace throughout the whole letter.

For by grace you are saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves; (it is) of God the gift.

The 2nd warning is given in the greek interlinear verse.
Grace and faith are both a noun, feminine, and singular.
Gift is a noun, neuter, and singular.

We have to first look and see that gift being neuter doesn't match feminine even though all three are singular.Only implying gift is matched to another word in the verse.

This is a demonstrative pronoun which is always followed by a noun This is neuter and singular which matches the following noun gift.

And so the gift is matched with this. But now the question is since this is singular and referring to one word or concept. But obviously, we can't know because grace and faith are feminine. So now we understand this must be referred to the concept of the subject at hand.

We have to study it in context to see is Paul speaking of at all inephesians about faith being the gift of God at any other point. In fact, he does not but is heavily focused on grace. So this is warning 3.

Warning four is seeing what the word gift is related to throughout the NT since the greek word in Ephesians 2:8 is used once. You do not have to go very far to finda example. In Ephesians 3:7

Ephesians 3:7New International Version (NIV)

7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.

Romans 6:23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And so with all these clues pointing to gift being referred to a singular concept and in context it is obvious what this concept is. The gift is referred to grace.

zone · Apr 23, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Well since your saying salvation and faith are the gift of God. Let's look at Ephesians 2:8 in context. We see its obvious Ephesians 2 is all focused on grace and salvation. Really all of Ephesians is focused on grace. This should be one warning that ephesians 2:8 may not be speaking on both faith and salvation as the gift. Paul had to include faith because part of how grace is to be given. But Paul was focusing on grace throughout the whole letter.

For by grace you are saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves; (it is) of God the gift.

The 2nd warning is given in the greek interlinear verse.
Grace and faith are both a noun, feminine, and singular.
Gift is a noun, neuter, and singular.

We have to first look and see that gift being neuter doesn't match feminine even though all three are singular.Only implying gift is matched to another word in the verse.

This is a demonstrative pronoun which is always followed by a noun This is neuter and singular which matches the following noun gift.

And so the gift is matched with this. But now the question is since this is singular and referring to one word or concept. But obviously, we can't know because grace and faith are feminine. So now we understand this must be referred to the concept of the subject at hand.

We have to study it in context to see is Paul speaking of at all inephesians about faith being the gift of God at any other point. In fact, he does not but is heavily focused on grace. So this is warning 3.

Warning four is seeing what the word gift is related to throughout the NT since the greek word in Ephesians 2:8 is used once. You do not have to go very far to finda example. In Ephesians 3:7

Ephesians 3:7New International Version (NIV)

7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.

Romans 6:23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And so with all these clues pointing to gift being referred to a singular concept and in context it is obvious what this concept is. The gift is referred to grace.

and through faith, the gift of gracious salvation comes.
pistis comes supernaturally only through hearing the word of God.
so setting faith aside from a moment, salvation (by grace) is a gift from God, delivered through faith.
your argument seems to be we summon up the faith to receive the gift.
but the bible said no one can come to Jesus unless the Father drags them.
a gift.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

zone said:

Yes the only way to do good works is to surrender in faith in which obedience comes from faith.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

zone said:

Does that passage mean that or does it mean of course no one can come to Jesus in less someone has heard of Jesus by someone sent by the father to preach the word so that a sinner then has a choice to believe or not.
Its obvious to me that someone has to hear of Jesus first to even know of the choice to believe in Christ. But they still are not forced by God choosing to give some faith and not others. Why would the bible drill over and over to have faith. Kinda redundant if God elects who he want to give faith.

MattforJesus · Apr 23, 2017

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

It is obvious that God wants all people to be saved,for Jesus lights every person born in to this world,and the Spirit and bride,say,anybody can have that salvation.

It cannot be denied that God wants all people to be saved,and we have to harmonize scriptures.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,for everything God planned out will surely come to pass.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Considered it happened from the foundation of the world,although it was a future event.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

Considered it happened from the foundation of the world,future event.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

All the works finished from the foundation of the world,although future events.

God had the plan to give mankind salvation from the foundation of the world,so all who choose that salvation it is the same as if they have salvation from the foundation of the world.

God wants all to be saved,so we have a choice in the matter of salvation,and it cannot be denied,so the only thing that makes sense is that all who choose that salvation it is the same as if they have that salvation from the foundation of the world,not God chooses who will saved,and not saved,without their input.

The thing is some people want to take away the choice and responsibility,for comfort to them.

zone · Apr 23, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Does that passage mean that or does it mean of course no one can come to Jesus in less someone has heard of Jesus by someone sent by the father to preach the word so that a sinner then has a choice to believe or not.
Its obvious to me that someone has to hear of Jesus first to even know of the choice to believe in Christ. But they still are not forced by God choosing to give some faith and not others. Why would the bible drill over and over to have faith. Kinda redundant if God elects who he want to give faith.

no, that passage means no one can come to Jesus unless the Father drags them.
just what it says.

Johnny_B · Apr 23, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Not really, is teaching them about the perseverance of their faith redundant? No! The problem with the OSAS opponent, get it wrong is their view of salvation. That a prayer save a person, when the Gospel does not call those to pray, it call them to repentance and the sign of repentance is ones perseverance in the faith Colossians 1:22-23 "he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

I know that many use this verses as proof text that one can lose their salvation, because of the "if" they use as a conditional clause, but it's a conjunction. Paul is expressing the same idea that John is in I John 2:19 and 3:19-20"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

We as believers do not want to have fellowship with apostate people, so we are warned to be on the lookout for them and mark them out, that you should not even fellowship or eat with them. I Corinthians 5:9-13 "I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you."

The warnings are so that we are to mark them and purge them from our fellowship, so that they will not influence us. The elect can not believe in an apostasy, but they are warned so that they are not influence by them. I know when I was a young believer I was literally mobbed by a oneness group and it bothered me at night and made me wonder if what I believed was Biblical, I did not convert to that belief, but over the years three of those in that group converted to believe in the Triune God, salvation by grace and justification by faith. So it can work both ways, you see an apostate person in the Church, you correct them with the truth. You don't know if they are one of the elect, if they are they will come to the truth, if not, they will not.

II Timothy 2:24-26 "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

zone said:

God begins his work in our minds even as sinners once we hear the gospel. But what we are held to is how we respond.

Then once we respond we are called to remain in faith.

Which is my study on this thread is apostasy to a believer and if so then faith has a different role than some play it as on here

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 23, 2017

zone said:

Drags them? Against free will? The only way someone can come to the son is by hearing the message sent by God through a believer. But that still doesnt force him. He still must choose.

Johnny_B · Apr 23, 2017

samuel23 said:

That's pushing it, the apostasy is people thinking that are saved by their own faith rather than God's grace and boast in it.
I Corinthians 4:7 "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

We receive salvation, we don't do works of righteousness for it, we receive God's grace, as gift of God, not by works lest any man boast. That his faith is what saved him, over God's grace of making us alive or causing us to be born again.

Uncommon · Apr 24, 2017

The Gospel of Christ is not that difficult really:
1) Believe
2) Eternal Life
3) Repent

P.S. Repeat as needed as you grow closer to God, He knows you better, you change. It is not you, is the work of the Holy Spirit.

wolfwint · Apr 24, 2017

Ariel82 said:

As Ariel quotet this verses. Christians will not loose their Salvation! And 1. Cor. 9, 24 -27 is not speaking about loose Salvation ! IT has more to do with Pauls ore our Service, according my understanding. But I believe also that nobody will be against his will in haeven.

Grace777x70 · Apr 24, 2017

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

So, in other words . Salvation ( as in being one with the Lord for eternity ) must be earned by what we do. That's a major violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and it is called works-righteousness.

I see 2 aspects of "salvation' -

1) sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe on Christ with our hearts - sealed until the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 and Eph. 4:30.

2) being saved from the things in this life that can occur - like not living or experiencing peace even though we have the peace of Christ. If we don't believe it or are taught wrong - then we will not experience the saving of our soul ( which means life ).

Does this mean we go to hell because we are not experiencing this life which is really ours in Christ? This is where the works of the flesh can wreck our lives while on this earth and there are many warnings about this.

Roughsoul1991 said:

Study on Apostasy.

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