Study on Apostasy.

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#1
So i am curious to see everyones interpretations of scriptures speaking of apostasy or scripture leading to apostasy. This one idea if warned to believers is the core debate of free will.

Ephesians 2:8 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—

The argument is people saying we are saved past tense but this same churched has some very serious warning in revelation.

Revelation 2:4-7Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 But I have this against you: You have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you[a] and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet you do have this: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the victor the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in God’s paradise.

Either Paul contridicts himself in many different places or when he means persevere thats what he means.


1 Corinthians 9:25-27Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away. 26 Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air. 27 Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

I just cant help but wonder why all the training and worry about being disqualified if the crown is already won before the race.

I see faith as something we must remain in to receive the crown.

I see the warnings related to apostasy is toward believers. It would be redundant to warn believers from apostate teachers if they couldn't of been influenced because of eternal security.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#2
Is it really such a big problem to grasp the fact that the predestination/eternal security does not mean you will be saved whatever you do, but it means you will do what is needed to be saved?

I.e. if you are predestined to be saved, the warnings about apostasy will have the positive effect on you.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#3
Ephesians 2:8-9 in the Greek verb tense is very clear that we are saved eternally. It is not the past tense. It is called the "perfect tense".

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.

An other example of the "perfect tense" is Jesus saying this : "It is finished."


As far as Revelation 2 goes. The candlestick is the whole church - not individuals as Rev. 1:20 proves. Without the light of Christ shining through that church - no one will see the true gospel of His grace and love for them and that church losses it's ability to manifest Christ as it should.

The first love is explained here in this grace-based finished works of Christ view of Rev. 2.


https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04...love-what-was-the-ephesians-problem-rev-21-7/


Now to this part here:

Revelation 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'


How do we overcome? Remember that in every church assembly Jesus said there would be tares along with the wheat. John gives us the answer to how these overcome:

“You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.” (1 Jn 4:4)

Overcoming is not about jumping through hoops and satisfying the expectations of men. It’s about depending on The Overcomer who lives in you.

“For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.” (1 Jn 5:4-5)

Are you born of God? Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? If yes, then the Overcomer lives in you and you can’t help but be an overcomer.

That’s why Jesus told the disciples to be encouraged during times of tribulation; because he – not they – had overcome the world and because they would carry his overcoming Spirit within them.

We are called to fight the good fight of faith! Believe in what Christ has done and His life will be manifested in every circumstance of our life while on this earth.



The 1 Cor. 9:25-27 - we need to go back to verse 20 to get the real context. Paul is talking about His ministry and if he doesn't control his own body then he will be disqualified "from his ministry" - not all of a sudden lose eternal life. Eternal life is in Christ.

God Himself is the One who qualifies us.

Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

So, none of what was mentioned means that we lose eternal salvation because that salvation is only found in Christ alone and what He has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

Let's spend our time preaching and teaching the love and grace of God which is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ so that believers can grow in Him and have the proper nutrients to experience His life on this earth and many will see our Fathers love and grace towards them and He will be glorified.


There is a time for the warning scriptures but let's preach the gospel of Christ first so that people have a foundation that is actually built on Him - then we can build from there as He directs us.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#4
So i am curious to see everyones interpretations of scriptures speaking of apostasy or scripture leading to apostasy. This one idea if warned to believers is the core debate of free will.

Ephesians 2:8 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—

The argument is people saying we are saved past tense but this same churched has some very serious warning in revelation.

Revelation 2:4-7Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 But I have this against you: You have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you[a] and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet you do have this: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the victor the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in God’s paradise.

Either Paul contridicts himself in many different places or when he means persevere thats what he means.


1 Corinthians 9:25-27Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away. 26 Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air. 27 Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

I just cant help but wonder why all the training and worry about being disqualified if the crown is already won before the race.

I see faith as something we must remain in to receive the crown.

I see the warnings related to apostasy is toward believers. It would be redundant to warn believers from apostate teachers if they couldn't of been influenced because of eternal security.



A church is not an individual. And salvation is not a reward or a prize to be won.
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#5
The warning of apostasy is to keep the believer exhorted to stay faithful, or otherwise be proven false.

In other words, the apostle repeatedly makes the case for 'eternal security,' but stirs the believers to not be lax in this security, as well as to warn of allowing anyone to be deceived.
 
U

Uncommon

Guest
#6
Believe on the name of Jesus and you and your whole household shall be saved. acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#7
Ephesians 2:8-9 in the Greek verb tense is very clear that we are saved eternally. It is not the past tense. It is called the "perfect tense".

Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.

Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.

An other example of the "perfect tense" is Jesus saying this : "It is finished."


As far as Revelation 2 goes. The candlestick is the whole church - not individuals as Rev. 1:20 proves. Without the light of Christ shining through that church - no one will see the true gospel of His grace and love for them and that church losses it's ability to manifest Christ as it should.

The first love is explained here in this grace-based finished works of Christ view of Rev. 2.


https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04...love-what-was-the-ephesians-problem-rev-21-7/


Now to this part here:

Revelation 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'


How do we overcome? Remember that in every church assembly Jesus said there would be tares along with the wheat. John gives us the answer to how these overcome:

“You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.” (1 Jn 4:4)

Overcoming is not about jumping through hoops and satisfying the expectations of men. It’s about depending on The Overcomer who lives in you.

“For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.” (1 Jn 5:4-5)

Are you born of God? Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? If yes, then the Overcomer lives in you and you can’t help but be an overcomer.

That’s why Jesus told the disciples to be encouraged during times of tribulation; because he – not they – had overcome the world and because they would carry his overcoming Spirit within them.

We are called to fight the good fight of faith! Believe in what Christ has done and His life will be manifested in every circumstance of our life while on this earth.



The 1 Cor. 9:25-27 - we need to go back to verse 20 to get the real context. Paul is talking about His ministry and if he doesn't control his own body then he will be disqualified "from his ministry" - not all of a sudden lose eternal life. Eternal life is in Christ.

God Himself is the One who qualifies us.

Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

So, none of what was mentioned means that we lose eternal salvation because that salvation is only found in Christ alone and what He has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

Let's spend our time preaching and teaching the love and grace of God which is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ so that believers can grow in Him and have the proper nutrients to experience His life on this earth and many will see our Fathers love and grace towards them and He will be glorified.


There is a time for the warning scriptures but let's preach the gospel of Christ first so that people have a foundation that is actually built on Him - then we can build from there as He directs us.
You may be set in your beliefs but as for me, I am in search for truth. And do not feel adequate to teach until my belief is well rooted. So you will have to ignore it or deal with it. I agree about the church being the candle so far because I have not yet studied that verse in interpretations and greek. But what you said about Paul I disagree because

Disqualified or castaway is translated with 8 different occurrences in the NT and here are few which translated with the same definition.

[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]96[e]
adokimos
ἀδόκιμος
disqualified

Here is the same transliteration for all 8 occurrences

adokimos: failing to pass the test
Original Word: ἀδόκιμος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: adokimos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-ok'-ee-mos)
Short Definition: failing to pass the test
Definition: failing to pass the test, unapproved, counterfeit

[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]
96
[e]
adokimos
ἀδόκιμος
[is] worthless
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]








96
[e]
adokimon
ἀδόκιμον
a depraved


Hebrews 6:4-8New International Version (NIV)

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.


Romans 1:28New International Version (NIV)

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.


[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]96[e]
adokimoi
ἀδόκιμοί
unapproved




2 Corinthians 13:5King James Version (KJV)

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ( unapproved)?

So to me, Paul is speaking about his ministry in verses 19-23. And then moves into self-discipline.

Verse 25 makes it very clear what he is disciplining himself for


25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

These other occurrences of this word
is linked to a moral obligation to be eternally sound.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
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#8
There is a great difference in us falling and one's faith falling. True faith gets up off the ground and continues on the journey the Lord has prepared. The Bible plainly declares that in the last days of the Church Age, many who accepted Christ will fall away from the truth. We must keep free from apostasy which means to fall away from the basic tenets of the Christian Faith.

Levels of faith: (many other examples in the bible)

Great faith - Matthew 8:5-10
Unfeigned faith - II Timothy 1:5
Wavering faith - James 1:5-7
Perfect faith - James 2:22
Rich faith - James 2:5
Full of faith - Acts 6:1-5
Little Faith - Matthew 6:25-34, Matthew 14:25-31
No faith - Mark 4:35-40
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#9
I'll leave what the Greek says concerning "disqualified" or in some translations - castaway and it's first meaning is "rejected".

There are many manifestations of what "rejected" is depending on the context.

1) We could be rejected as far as Christ not being in us and thus are "reprobates." or rejected from the life of Christ not being in us. 2 Cor. 13:5 in other words - not saved. (same usage in 2 Cor. 13:6,7 )

2) Having a "depraved" mind or a mind that is rejecting the truth. Rom. 1:8

3) used in the context of being "worthless" or "rejected" in doing any good works. Titus 1:16

Titus 1:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.


4) Used saying un-saved people were "rejected" to the faith. Talking about un-saved people - verses 2-9 . 2 Tim. 3:8

2 Timothy 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

5) Used here for briers being "rejected" for use. Hebrews 6:8

6) Finally for Paul being potentially "rejected" from ministry. 1 Cor. 9:27


All usages have to do with being "rejected" or "worthless/useless" depending on the context it was used at the time.



95. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]ἀδόκιμος[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]adokimos[/FONT] adj

Rejected, depraved, disqualified, unworthy, useless

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.
 
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A

Ariel82

Guest
#10
So i am curious to see everyones interpretations of scriptures speaking of apostasy or scripture leading to apostasy. This one idea if warned to believers is the core debate of free will.

Ephesians 2:8 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—

The argument is people saying we are saved past tense but this same churched has some very serious warning in revelation.

Revelation 2:4-7Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

4 But I have this against you: You have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you[a] and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 Yet you do have this: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the victor the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in God’s paradise.

Either Paul contridicts himself in many different places or when he means persevere thats what he means.


1 Corinthians 9:25-27Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away. 26 Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air. 27 Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

I just cant help but wonder why all the training and worry about being disqualified if the crown is already won before the race.

I see faith as something we must remain in to receive the crown.

I see the warnings related to apostasy is toward believers. It would be redundant to warn believers from apostate teachers if they couldn't of been influenced because of eternal security.


My answer is complicated because you post many different scriptures, would you be okay with looking at each one separately and discussing them?

I believe in eternal security and peservance of the saints because it's by God's power and grace we are saved and empowered to walk in His will. Got to tuck kids in, bbl
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#11
For me understanding the term "monergism" helped me understand the concept spoken of in Ephesians 2v8

https://www.monergism.com/about-us

What is Monergism? The term "monergism" is a theological term in which the prefix "mono" means "one" and the suffix "ergism" (ergon) means "to work". Or together they mean, "the work of one", or salvation is of the Lord alone, not a cooperation of man and God. If anyone is to be saved Jesus must grant everything we need for salvation, including a new heart to believe. (Deut 29:4, 30:6: Ezek 36:26; John 6:63, 65, 37). The Trinity works in harmony to bring about the salvation of his elect. The Father elects us in Christ, the Son redeems the same, and the Holy Spirit applies regeneration to the all those the Father has given the Son. The gospel indeed goes out to all people who hear it, but in the stubbornness of people's hearts no one, left to themselves, responds to this outward call (1 Cor 1:23, 24; 2:14), so in love God extends mercy to a multitude of ill-deserving rebel sinners by opening their blind eyes, unstopping their deaf ears and turning their heart of stone to a heart of flesh, that they might believe and live ( Rom 9:15, 16). If anyone is to be saved, it is not because someone naturally had a good will, was more humble, was more wise, and someone else did not, but because Christ saved them, If someone trusts in Christ it is because He (Christ) gave them a good will that they might believe the gospel call. No one believes the gospel apart form effectual working of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12;3; 1 Thess 1:4-5)
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#12
Revelation 2 v 4-7

What were their first works and what false doctrines did the Nicolatians teach?

I did some research and learned that Nicolatians taught a lictenious doctrine, which made me believe that this church were a bunch of legalist who forgot about their "first love" which is salvation is through grace by faith in what Jesus did for them and not just good works.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#13
I'll leave what the Greek says concerning "disqualified" or in some translations - castaway and it's first meaning is "rejected".

There are many manifestations of what "rejected" is depending on the context.

1) We could be rejected as far as Christ not being in us and thus are "reprobates." or rejected from the life of Christ not being in us. 2 Cor. 13:5 in other words - not saved. (same usage in 2 Cor. 13:6,7 )

2) Having a "depraved" mind or a mind that is rejecting the truth. Rom. 1:8

3) used in the context of being "worthless" or "rejected" in doing any good works. Titus 1:16

Titus 1:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.


4) Used saying un-saved people were "rejected" to the faith. Talking about un-saved people - verses 2-9 . 2 Tim. 3:8

2 Timothy 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

5) Used here for briers being "rejected" for use. Hebrews 6:8

6) Finally for Paul being potentially "rejected" from ministry. 1 Cor. 9:27


All usages have to do with being "rejected" or "worthless/useless" depending on the context it was used at the time.



95. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]ἀδόκιμος[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]adokimos[/FONT] adj

Rejected, depraved, disqualified, unworthy, useless

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.
Yes and like i said its very clear in context located under verse 25 why he is self disciplining himself. As we see what this same word castaway means in other verses we get a idea why verse 26 goes well with what is said in 25
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#14
1 Corinthians 9...I would say the reward is the same as spoken in these verses and not salvation but a different crown...

1 Corinthians 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#15
Yes and like i said its very clear in context located under verse 25 why he is self disciplining himself. As we see what this same word castaway means in other verses we get a idea why verse 26 goes well with what is said in 25
Which IMO has absolutely nothing to do with losing his salvation because of not being found fit for doing his ministry. There are rewards for ministry done by the grace of God in us.

That was the premise of your OP from what I gathered when I read it. This is what you are really getting at...right? Paul would lose his salvation because of not disciplining his body in regards to his ministry. Am I reading you correctly?
 
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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#16
For me understanding the term "monergism" helped me understand the concept spoken of in Ephesians 2v8

https://www.monergism.com/about-us
I have my understanding of Ephesians 2:8 but i was only referring to when yall say saved in past tense.

I see anytime past tense is used i do not see it implying eternal security. But see that everything related to salvation has already been done. Past tense and all we are to do is remain in faith because God has already done the saving past tense. And now we are to be faithful to obtain what has been completed. Basically we are told salvation is done and now a gift. We are just to remain faithful unto the end knowing that remaining in faith we will be given the hope we are earnestly waiting on. Because obviously we have to be dead for our soul to be judged
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#17
Which IMO has absolutely nothing to do with losing his salvation because of not being found fit for doing his ministry. There are rewards for ministry done by the grace of God in us.

That was the premise of your OP from what I gathered when I read it. This is what you are really getting at...right? Paul would lose his salvation because of not disciplining his body in regards to his ministry. Am I reading you correctly?
Im basically searching scripture to see is apostasy believer related or false believer related. Because if its warned to believers then my debate on can a believer backslide and potentially apostasy be logical.

I see it so clearly to be told to believers with no indication to say otherwise other than people's interpretations.

And because of verse 26 i see what Paul says to be related to the winning the race and the crown at the end.
 

DustyRhodes

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2016
2,117
599
113
#18
Luke 27: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[SUP][c][/SUP]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][d][/SUP]”

Gal.5:14 ... 14..For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

If we are able to do this truthfully, faithfully and always with His love then a thousand books can be written but they will be meaningless. To complicate the matter is intellectualism.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#19
1 Corinthians 9...I would say the reward is the same as spoken in these verses and not salvation but a different crown...

1 Corinthians 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
A crown is different though not not like any ole reward its like you win the whole race type of crown. You trained and won. Like your being crowned into the ones who have also won
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#20
Im basically searching scripture to see is apostasy believer related or false believer related. Because if its warned to believers then my debate on can a believer backslide and potentially apostasy be logical.

I see it so clearly to be told to believers with no indication to say otherwise other than people's interpretations.

And because of verse 26 i see what Paul says to be related to the winning the race and the crown at the end.
So, in other words . Salvation ( as in being one with the Lord for eternity ) must be earned by what we do. That's a major violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ and it is called works-righteousness.

We don't "win" salvation. It is a gift from God by His grace through faith in Christ when we hear the message of Christ Himself. Eph. 2:8-9 The same for righteousness - it is a gift of God based entirely on the work of Christ. Rom. 5:17

I see 2 aspects of "salvation' -

1) sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe on Christ with our hearts - sealed until the day of redemption. Eph 1:13 and Eph. 4:30. ( this is the one where we are joined as one spirit with the Lord for eternity. This is where Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16 - I don't believe He is lying to us. )

2) being saved from the things in this life that can occur - like not living or experiencing peace even though we have the peace of Christ. If we don't believe it or are taught wrong - then we will not experience the saving of our soul ( which means life ).

Does this mean we go to hell because we are not experiencing this life which is really ours in Christ? This is where the works of the flesh can wreck our lives while on this earth and there are many warnings about this.

What it boils down to is that some think we lose our salvation ( as in being joined s one spirit with the Lord for eternity because of His work on the cross and resurrection ) and others don't. Some think that they need to "do things" to keep themselves saved. Some think that Christ is our Savior.

Let each person have their own faith before God....:)...BLess you...have a good night. I am off to dream land!
 
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