Greek scholars, help

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notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
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#1
i know we're blessed to have several Koine Greek scholars here; may i ask for your assistance?

specifically concerning the 'hina' (ἵνα) clause as related to Jn 3:14-17.

all i've figured out is it's a purpose clause (i think! lol). but as i look it seems there's a parallel structure in those verses.
really, any ἵνα in the New Testament where it appears, can you try to explain it to me?


thank you!
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^^^ the result of copying Greek from the 'net, apparently. :)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
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Alabama
#2
i know we're blessed to have several Koine Greek scholars here; may i ask for your assistance?

specifically concerning the 'hina' (ἵνα) clause as related to Jn 3:14-17.

all i've figured out is it's a purpose clause (i think! lol). but as i look it seems there's a parallel structure in those verses.
really, any ἵνα in the New Testament where it appears, can you try to explain it to me?


thank you!
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: greek2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: greek2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

^^^ the result of copying Greek from the 'net, apparently. :)
Sounds to me like you already know what a ἵνα clause does. What exactly are you wanting to know?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#3
I don't see myself as a Greek scholar by no means.....but are you looking specifically at the main clause & subordinate clause in V16?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#4
It's quite amazing that with all those who (try) and use greek in their posts, are not tripping overthemselves to answer this question.

I'm not a greek scholar, that's for sure but to me, it is a 'purpose' clause, it has an aim. In other words an intentional result vv14,15.

To me, It means that the lifting up has an intended and 'definite' aim in that it will fulfil its intended aim. There is no contingency plan based upon man's 'will' for the future! the lifting up of the Son, will save those whosoever believe.

To me the paralell is that it is a definite decree, from our Soveriegn God. It will save to its intended purpose.

That's my stab at it, as I say I'm no greek scholar.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
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#5
Sounds to me like you already know what a ἵνα clause does. What exactly are you wanting to know?

ha! good question. ;)

ἵνα appears in Jn 3:15, 16, and 17, right? is there a parallel structure there?

it seems to me when i look at the Greek that "whoever" (v. 15, 16), which is in most English translations, isn't there. is that because there's difficulty going from Greek to English here?

it looks more like "pas ho pistueón" is more like everyone believing, or all the believing ones, than whoever?
what i don't fully grasp is how the
ἵνα fits... is it sorta like "God sent His Son for the purpose that all the believing ones should not perish..... "?

sorry, OH, i really ought to learn Greek, eh?
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
113
#6
I don't see myself as a Greek scholar by no means.....but are you looking specifically at the main clause & subordinate clause in V16?

yes! thank you!
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
113
#7
It's quite amazing that with all those who (try) and use greek in their posts, are not tripping overthemselves to answer this question.

I'm not a greek scholar, that's for sure but to me, it is a 'purpose' clause, it has an aim. In other words an intentional result vv14,15.

To me, It means that the lifting up has an intended and 'definite' aim in that it will fulfil its intended aim. There is no contingency plan based upon man's 'will' for the future! the lifting up of the Son, will save those whosoever believe.

To me the paralell is that it is a definite decree, from our Soveriegn God. It will save to its intended purpose.

That's my stab at it, as I say I'm no greek scholar.

:eek: thanks, Phil. i'm beginning to see.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
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Alabama
#8
I don't see myself as a Greek scholar by no means.....but are you looking specifically at the main clause & subordinate clause in V16?
It simply lays stress to the means by which everlasting life is obtained. It shows function or purpose for the sending of the Son.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
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#9
It simply lays stress to the means by which everlasting life is obtained. It shows function or purpose for the sending of the Son.
you're all really helping!

though i think many of us feel "God so loved the world" is the main part, is it actually God sending His Son that's the main clause? in Greek, i mean?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#10
it seems to me when i look at the Greek that "whoever" (v. 15, 16), which is in most English translations, isn't there. is that because there's difficulty going from Greek to English here?
I would like to help, but English is the 3rd foreign languge for me so it is probably question for the native speaker who can distinguish the small English nuances better.

it looks more like "pas ho pistueón" is more like everyone believing, or all the believing ones, than whoever?
Yes, you are right, the meaning is that the believing ones will not perish/die. It does not say that everybody can believe, if your question is about this.
 
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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
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Alabama
#11
ha! good question. ;)

ἵνα appears in Jn 3:15, 16, and 17, right? is there a parallel structure there?

it seems to me when i look at the Greek that "whoever" (v. 15, 16), which is in most English translations, isn't there. is that because there's difficulty going from Greek to English here?

it looks more like "pas ho pistueón" is more like everyone believing, or all the believing ones, than whoever?
what i don't fully grasp is how the
ἵνα fits... is it sorta like "God sent His Son for the purpose that all the believing ones should not perish..... "?

sorry, OH, i really ought to learn Greek, eh?
'Pas' is generally translated as 'all' as representing the wbole. I think 'whosoever' may be a bit weak.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
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Alabama
#12
you're all really helping!

though i think many of us feel "God so loved the world" is the main part, is it actually God sending His Son that's the main clause? in Greek, i mean?
That is a good point. Everything within this segment owes it's existence to the fact of the opening clause.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
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#13
I would like to help, but English is the 3rd foreign languge for me so it is probably question for the native speaker who can distinguish the small English nuances better.
honestly, learning French and Spanish isn't helping me here. it did, however, solidify my English grammar a bit. ;)


Yes, you are right, the meaning is that the believing ones will not perish/die. It does not say that everybody can believe, if your question is about this.
yes, it's a bit like that, thank you. i'm seeing "in this manner God loved the world that He gave" so that the believing ones will have everlasting life. but i await reproof or agreement from someone who knows better than i.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#14
yes, it's a bit like that, thank you. i'm seeing "in this manner God loved the world that He gave" so that the believing ones will have everlasting life. but i await reproof or agreement from someone who knows better than i.
This is exactly how I understand this place in Greek.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#15
The subordinate clause "should not perish" doesn't guarantee an indefinite period of time, because the context "might have eternal life" takes away the guarantee of the indefinite possibility.

I hope that was what you were looking for. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I know enough to understand that context surrounding the main & subordinate clauses matter.
:)
 
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notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
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#16
The subordinate clause "should not perish" doesn't guarantee an indefinite period of time, because the context "might have eternal life" takes away the guarantee of the indefinite possibility.

I hope that was what you were looking for. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I know enough to understand that context surrounding the main & subordinate clauses matter.
:)

aannnd now i'm confused again. (shocker!)

what's the main clause in the Greek? and which are subordinate?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
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#17
God loves us so much He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him and attain to life ever after through the covering of the blood of His spotless Son, Who paid the sin debt of the world. Any way you look at it, God is amazing! :)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#18
i know we're blessed to have several Koine Greek scholars here; may i ask for your assistance?

specifically concerning the 'hina' (ἵνα) clause as related to Jn 3:14-17.

all i've figured out is it's a purpose clause (i think! lol). but as i look it seems there's a parallel structure in those verses.
really, any ἵνα in the New Testament where it appears, can you try to explain it to me?


thank you!
There are four hina clauses in John 3.14-17 where it means 'in order that'.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#19
If I'm not mistaken isn't the word "whoever, whosoever" etc.. the Greek word is actually a phrase that is difficult to express in English.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,142
612
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69
Alabama
#20
aannnd now i'm confused again. (shocker!)

what's the main clause in the Greek? and which are subordinate?
The main clause has to be the one to which all other clauses are subordiate, in this case, "For God loved the world so much."