Kenneth Hagin and the prosperity gospel

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A

Ariel82

Guest
#1
Okay Allen

Another thread.

I refuse to hijack someone else's thread more than I already have but do want to hear what you believe.

I don't know the hearts of all the people who answer the altar call of Joel Osteen.

Some might truly be believers, but I have seen what the preaching of false prosperity gospel does.

I don't want a mud slinging match.

I want to examine their words and objectively through prayer see if it's true or false.

I posted one example of the false promises Joel Osteen posted on his website yesterday.

Will find and repost.

Have not researched Hagin and what he teaches, but a brief search says he started the prosperity gospel movement.

Any websites you would recommend?

This is a controversial subject and I doubt we will agree, but do you think we can have a civilized discussion or is this just a wasted thread?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#2
Okay this, this would be evidence that Joel Osteen is preaching a false prosperity gospel by misapplying scriptures to people's personal life....

God is saying the same thing to you, "Put down your shields. Put down your swords. You're not going to have to worry, struggle or try to force it to happen." God is going ahead of you. He is going to drive out the inhabitants that are on your land. That means whatever is keeping you from your health, your joy, your abundance, your victory, that's your land. That's what God promised you. I believe, right now, He's beginning to drive them out. You're going to come into your land of health and wholeness! God is driving out sickness and disease. You're coming into your land of increase and promotion! He's driving out struggle and lack. You're going to come into your land of unprecedented favor. So keep standing and believing and watch Him move mightily on your behalf!

https://www.joelosteen.com/Pages/Blog.aspx?blogid=12903
Took me less than 5 minutes to find.

If someone asked me if I liked Joel Osteen as a teacher?

I would say no. He has a false understanding of the Bible.

If someone asked me if he was saved and a Christian?

I would say, it's not my place to judge another's salvation, but he is walking down the wrong road by teaching the false prosperity gospel.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#3
So far I like what I am reading about Hagin Sr.

How Can People Have the Wrong Motive for Giving to a Ministry? | CBN.com

Hagin taught that God was not glorified by poverty and that preachers do not have to be poor. But before he died in 2003 and left his Rhema Bible Training Center in the hands of his son, Kenneth Hagin Jr., he summoned many of his colleagues to Tulsa to rebuke them for distorting his message. He was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.

Those who were close to Hagin Sr. say he was passionate about correcting these abuses before he died. In fact, he wrote a brutally honest book to address his concerns. The Midas Touch was published in 2000, a year after the infamous Tulsa meeting.

Many Word-Faith ministers ignored the book. But in light of the recent controversy over prosperity doctrines, it might be a good idea to dust it off and read it again.

Here are a few of the points Hagin made in The Midas Touch:

1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”

2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”

3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”

4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.

5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”

(Many evangelists who appear on Christian television today use this bogus claim. Usually they insist that the miraculous debt cancellation will occur only if a person “gives right now,” as if the anointing for this miracle suddenly evaporates after the prime time viewing hour. This manipulative claim is more akin to witchcraft than Christian belief.)

Hagin condemned other hairbrained gimmicks designed to trick audiences into emptying their wallets. He was especially incensed when a preacher told his radio listeners that he would take their prayer requests to Jesus’ empty tomb in Jerusalem and pray over them there—if donors included a special love gift. “What that radio preacher really wanted was more people to send in offerings,” Hagin wrote.

Thanks to the recent resurgence in bizarre donation schemes promoted by American charismatics, the prosperity gospel is back under the nation’s microscope. It’s time to revisit Hagin’s concerns and find a biblical balance.

Hagin told his followers: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.” If the man who pioneered the modern concept of biblical prosperity blew the whistle on his own movement, wouldn’t it make sense for us to listen to his admonition?

J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma magazine.
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#4
Hagin, Roberts, and preachers of that age group grew up during the depression, a time when many people could hardly get enough food to eat so it is no wonder that asking God for provision was normal. As they got older the economy of the nation picked up and of course they were given more money and I think some of them thought they were making the money come in by their faith. The truth is that everyone was doing better. Anyway, the next generation picked up on the idea and carried it further until they were making their selves very rich and all the while claiming it was their faith when it was really the message that promised those who gave would get rich like they did. The givers did not get rich but the takers certainly did.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#5
Okay Allen

Another thread.

I refuse to hijack someone else's thread more than I already have but do want to hear what you believe.

I don't know the hearts of all the people who answer the altar call of Joel Osteen.

Some might truly be believers, but I have seen what the preaching of false prosperity gospel does.

I don't want a mud slinging match.

I want to examine their words and objectively through prayer see if it's true or false.

I posted one example of the false promises Joel Osteen posted on his website yesterday.

Will find and repost.

Have not researched Hagin and what he teaches, but a brief search says he started the prosperity gospel movement.

Any websites you would recommend?

This is a controversial subject and I doubt we will agree, but do you think we can have a civilized discussion or is this just a wasted thread?
Soooo...you want others to treat you respectfully and differently on the same topic than you treated others on the same topic in another thread by saying they don't preach the Gospel, said they were on a witch hunt among other nasty remarks and lies you made?

Cool. I'll chime in, but I won't behave the way you did in my thread. :)
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#6
I'm not going to judge Osteen on his salvation, that seems to be the ability of some on here (such as PeterJens who calls me and others lost). That is above my paygrade.

I will however give what God says here:

2Pe 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
2Pe 2:2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,


2Pe 2:3 and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.
2Pe 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
2Pe 2:5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
2Pe 2:6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them ;


2Pe 2:7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
2Pe 2:8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,


2Pe 2:10 and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of,
2Pe 2:11 whereas messengers, in strength and power being greater, do not bear against them before the Lord an evil speaking judgment;
2Pe 2:12 and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed--in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil--in their destruction shall be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 about to receive a reward of unrighteousness, pleasures counting the luxury in the day, spots and blemishes, luxuriating in their deceits, feasting with you,
2Pe 2:14 having eyes full of adultery, and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having an heart exercised in covetousnesses, children of a curse,
2Pe 2:15 having forsaken a right way, they did go astray, having followed in the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who a reward of unrighteousness did love,
2Pe 2:16 and had a rebuke of his own iniquity--a dumb ass, in man's voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, and clouds by a tempest driven, to whom the thick gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept;
2Pe 2:18 for overswellings of vanity speaking, they do entice in desires of the flesh--lasciviousnesses, those who had truly escaped from those conducting themselves in error,
2Pe 2:19 liberty to them promising, themselves being servants of the corruption, for by whom any one hath been overcome, to this one also he hath been brought to servitude,
2Pe 2:20 for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first,
2Pe 2:21 for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged it , to turn back from the holy command delivered to them,
2Pe 2:22 and happened to them hath that of the true similitude; `A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,' and, `A sow having bathed herself--to rolling in mire.'
 
C

CeileDe

Guest
#7
Okay Allen

Another thread.

I refuse to hijack someone else's thread more than I already have but do want to hear what you believe.

I don't know the hearts of all the people who answer the altar call of Joel Osteen.

Some might truly be believers, but I have seen what the preaching of false prosperity gospel does.

I don't want a mud slinging match.

I want to examine their words and objectively through prayer see if it's true or false.

I posted one example of the false promises Joel Osteen posted on his website yesterday.

Will find and repost.

Have not researched Hagin and what he teaches, but a brief search says he started the prosperity gospel movement.

Any websites you would recommend?

This is a controversial subject and I doubt we will agree, but do you think we can have a civilized discussion or is this just a wasted thread?
Hi Ariel82. As you already know you are going to get a lot of people who absolutely hate anything WoF on this thread and they are going to post all sorts of videos that claim a WoF preacher means this and means that.

From what I read in your posts Hagen Sr. is against a lot of what some WoF preachers that give WoF a bad name are spreading. What is sad that a lot of WoF preachers or evangelists who don't make off the wall statements or guidelines are lumped in with the bad ones and no one will listen to any type of reason.

I'm not WoF but I have listened to at least 1 or 2 WoF ministers and haven't found anything unbiblical with what they have said or preached. Now did they say something 20 years ago that might have sounded off the wall? I'm sure they did and maybe they changed their doctrine or view on it.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#8
Hi Ariel82. As you already know you are going to get a lot of people who absolutely hate anything WoF on this thread and they are going to post all sorts of videos that claim a WoF preacher means this and means that.
Hello, it sounds like you're already willing to close your mind to evidence presented and have already made up your mind.

From what I read in your posts Hagen Sr. is against a lot of what some WoF preachers that give WoF a bad name are spreading. What is sad that a lot of WoF preachers or evangelists who don't make off the wall statements or guidelines are lumped in with the bad ones and no one will listen to any type of reason.
Of course Charisma magazine would help him re-write his narrative. Why would Charisma support criticism of one of their false teachers who took Kenyon's false teachings to a new level?

I'm not WoF but I have listened to at least 1 or 2 WoF ministers and haven't found anything unbiblical with what they have said or preached.
Who, and what did they preach? Others need to examine this as well. WoF in itself is heresy, so I would like to have more information on this alleged happening.


Now did they say something 20 years ago that might have sounded off the wall? I'm sure they did and maybe they changed their doctrine or view on it.
So, if it is from 1997 or prior, it's invalid? There is no need to stack the deck here. If the person taught false teachings, and had not publicly recanted that teaching, while admitting to it, then it remains valid no matter when it was taught.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#9
What's a WOF?

Here we go a woffling, a woffling - sounds like a Christmas tune...:p
 
C

CeileDe

Guest
#10
Hello, it sounds like you're already willing to close your mind to evidence presented and have already made up your mind.



Of course Charisma magazine would help him re-write his narrative. Why would Charisma support criticism of one of their false teachers who took Kenyon's false teachings to a new level?



Who, and what did they preach? Others need to examine this as well. WoF in itself is heresy, so I would like to have more information on this alleged happening.




So, if it is from 1997 or prior, it's invalid? There is no need to stack the deck here. If the person taught false teachings, and had not publicly recanted that teaching, while admitting to it, then it remains valid no matter when it was taught.
I think people have already hashed out this topic over and over again on this forum and many other forums. I was just giving a polite warning to Ariel, which she probably already knew.

I won't let you draw me into a lengthy debate on this topic because no matter what I say most likely it won't be accepted.

Far as closing my mind? Well I have heard and seen plenty of evidence on the subject and we will just be repeating what has already been said many times over.

As far as to the ministers I have listened to. Well I purposely left their names out because I refuse to sit here and debate with anyone on this topic. It gets heated and nasty and it doesn't edify anyone on this forum.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#11
I think people have already hashed out this topic over and over again on this forum and many other forums. I was just giving a polite warning to Ariel, which she probably already knew.
That's all a given, yet you came into the thread to give your view that it's all good.

I won't let you draw me into a lengthy debate on this topic because no matter what I say most likely it won't be accepted.
If you offered more information and proper Biblical exegesis to support what they teach by Scripture, then that would be fair. You haven't done this, and it is highly doubtful that you can, let alone will.

Far as closing my mind? Well I have heard and seen plenty of evidence on the subject and we will just be repeating what has already been said many times over.
Yes, your mind is closed. I am sorry to see that because to believe WoF as biblical is sad to see. It is anything but orthodox Christianity.

As far as to the ministers I have listened to. Well I purposely left their names out because I refuse to sit here and debate with anyone on this topic. It gets heated and nasty and it doesn't edify anyone on this forum.
I don't want to draw you out in a lengthy debate, believe me. I would however like substantiation to claims that are made. You make dogmatic assertions without any corroboration at all. As in WoF isn't unbiblical, when in fact it is completely unbiblical.

You also set up some rules for how you think it should go and what is acceptable, setting a precedent. I simply am showing those are invalid parameters, it is like stacking the deck "Let me tell you WoF is biblical, and I won't accept videos or something before 1997 as evidence".

That's a bit unfair and disingenuous to be honest. It's saying "I'm right and I won't accept your evidence to the contrary".

Perhaps you don't want to share these alleged ministers because you simply do not wish to have their teachings exposed since you've closed your mind already.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#12
Hagin, Roberts, and preachers of that age group grew up during the depression, a time when many people could hardly get enough food to eat so it is no wonder that asking God for provision was normal. As they got older the economy of the nation picked up and of course they were given more money and I think some of them thought they were making the money come in by their faith. The truth is that everyone was doing better. Anyway, the next generation picked up on the idea and carried it further until they were making their selves very rich and all the while claiming it was their faith when it was really the message that promised those who gave would get rich like they did. The givers did not get rich but the takers certainly did.
Nice insight about the differences in the generational economy. I never thought about that before.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#13
Soooo...you want others to treat you respectfully and differently on the same topic than you treated others on the same topic in another thread by saying they don't preach the Gospel, said they were on a witch hunt among other nasty remarks and lies you made?

Cool. I'll chime in, but I won't behave the way you did in my thread. :)
Long as you don't behave the way you did in your thread, we might be able to have a conversation.

I went to your thread to see what your gospel was. I have yet to find it, but you follow me to make false accusations based upon your misunderranding of both my motives for posting in your thread and my disagreement with what I perceive is the bigger issue posted on the video you posted on your OP.

I welcome you to post as you wish, but if you start insulting me and calling me more names, I reserve the right to put you on ignore.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#14
Matthew 5:23 ►
New International Version
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you,
leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

***

Yeah it still bugs me..

Sorry folks, gonna need to pray more.


I really dislike being falsely accused and I need to ask God how to handle it.

What do you do when someone posts in your thread mainly to call you a liar?

you treated others on the same topic in another thread by saying they don't preach the Gospel, said they were on a witch hunt among other nasty remarks and lies you made?
 
C

CeileDe

Guest
#15
That's all a given, yet you came into the thread to give your view that it's all good.


If you offered more information and proper Biblical exegesis to support what they teach by Scripture, then that would be fair. You haven't done this, and it is highly doubtful that you can, let alone will.
You are right I won’t.

Yes, your mind is closed. I am sorry to see that because to believe WoF as biblical is sad to see. It is anything but orthodox Christianity.

My mind isn’t closed because I’m not even close to WoF.


I don't want to draw you out in a lengthy debate, believe me. I would however like substantiation to claims that are made. You make dogmatic assertions without any corroboration at all. As in WoF isn't unbiblical, when in fact it is completely unbiblical.
If you read it correctly I didn’t say WoF isn’t unbiblical. I said, “I'm not WoF but I have listened to at least 1 or 2 WoF ministers and haven't found anything unbiblical with what they have said or preached.”
I am basing this statement off what I have read or listened to. Could they have something that I haven’t read or listened to that might be unbiblical? Maybe

You also set up some rules for how you think it should go and what is acceptable, setting a precedent. I simply am showing those are invalid parameters, it is like stacking the deck "Let me tell you WoF is biblical, and I won't accept videos or something before 1997 as evidence".
Once again, I never said WoF is biblical.

That's a bit unfair and disingenuous to be honest. It's saying "I'm right and I won't accept your evidence to the contrary".
I never said I was right. What I said is this, “As far as to the ministers I have listened to. Well I purposely left their names out because I refuse to sit here and debate with anyone on this topic. It gets heated and nasty and it doesn't edify anyone on this forum.”

Perhaps you don't want to share these alleged ministers because you simply do not wish to have their teachings exposed since you've closed your mind already.
Read statement above this. God Bless
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#16
Okay Preacher4Truth, I will offer the olive branch.

I doubt you will ever admit to being wrong in your judgement of me.

Let us instead start fresh.

You joined in January and we haven't really talked.

I know personally something happened in my life to cause me to seek online fellowship and Bible discussion.

I haven't read all your post and I was researching an old thread for another reason, but I think God had a hand it because he took my anger at you calling me a liar and challenged me to be compassionate instead.

You told Grace that his words meant a lot because of what was happening in your life.

I don't need to know what you meant by that, but it reminded me that we don't know what is going on in another person's life.

I don't know why we have a failure to communicate.

Perhaps my words are unclear. If so I will apologize.

Stephen told me I was as phony as a three dollar bill.

If you agree with him, I entreat you to leave this thread now.

I can't handle more folks telling me fake or dumb or any other insults right now.

I come to this forum to fellowship and learn what other believer have been taught about God and scriptures.

I don't know if people consider it a weakness or strength, but I seek to as much as it is in my power be at peace with my fellow man.

So will you accept the olive branch or should I save myself the heartache and put you on ignore?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,939
113
#17
My parents also lived through the depression. My mom was so poor, they supplemented her at school. She got so sick from being malnourished, she almost died. No vaccines back then!

They got very rich in the 50s and 60s with my dad building homes and selling them for a big profit, besides his day job and playing pro football. Money really drove my parents, and to a certain extent, my MIL. So, yes, I think this idea that fear drove the prosperity movement, might have some validity.

I believe the Health side of the Word Faith is totally unbliblcal. The fact is, healing is NOT in the atonement. I have posted so much on that, in the past. I can repost, if anyone wants. That would be the Bible verses, the context, and the Greek. Lest anyone think I am just making it up as I go along.

As far as the Wealth side, I have not paid much attention to it, because money doesn't drive me. But, if I find time, I will also post something about it, from a Scriptural point of view, which means not pulling a verse out of context, and making it a proof text.

I read Hagin's books in the 1980s. I was not impressed, although I was a young Christian. A friend really put me straight, and I never looked into it again, even when I was shamed and humiliated by Word Faith friends, who accused me of having no faith because I was not healed. But no, that does not drive me, either!

I really do want to stand against this unbiblical heresy! That is what drives me! And the Holy Spirit who seems to want me here for a reason!
 
C

CeileDe

Guest
#18
Have fun with this thread. It is going to get nasty.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#20
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=EJmWDNCthNU

Started this sermon and red flag went up



"The Bible never says what Jesus redeemed us from?"

He says not sin but death which is the cause of sin....that is backwards.

Sin is what causes death.,.

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 1:15
Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.