The time of Jacob's troubles

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valiant

Senior Member
#41
Mar 22, 2015
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#41
eternally-gratefull said:
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The time of Jacobs trouble was said to be "great, so that none is like it" Jesus said the time of great tribulation was to be so great, that none is like it.
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There has NEVER through history been a tribulation like that on the Jews since 70 ad (and it INCLUDES WW2). They have had 2000 years of tribulation. Nothing like it before or since.


It does not take much study to realize that what happened in or near AD 70
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who is talking about 'in or near'?. They are STILL enduring the tribulation,


was nothing compared to WW1 or WW2. so by this alone, WW2 would be a far better answer of saying it fulfilled this time, than AD 70, Which does not fit.
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WW 1 & 2 are part of the 'great tribulation' on the Jews.
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You are missing the whole point. Tribulation from 70 ad onwards to the present day fits the description perfectly.


Which also leaves us to imagine a time of great tribulation far greater than these two world wars will occur in the future.. Which is why we should all be ready, if we go through it or not. We need to get people ready and bring them to God..
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you say IMAGINE. and that is what you are doing. there cannot be a greater tribulation than 2000 years of tribulation, nor is one mentioned in Scripture
 
A

abcdef

Senior Member
#42
Mar 30, 2016
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#42
valiant said:



There has NEVER through history been a tribulation like that on the Jews since 70 ad (and it INCLUDES WW2). They have had 2000 years of tribulation. Nothing like it before or since.




who is talking about 'in or near'?. They are STILL enduring the tribulation,




WW 1 & 2 are part of the 'great tribulation' on the Jews.
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You are missing the whole point. Tribulation from 70 ad onwards to the present day fits the description perfectly.




you say IMAGINE. and that is what you are doing. there cannot be a greater tribulation than 2000 years of tribulation, nor is one mentioned in Scripture
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What event signals the end of the trib? What do you see?
 
A

abcdef

Senior Member
#44
Mar 30, 2016
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#44
valiant said:
when Christ comes
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The trib. revolves around Jerusalem and it's restoration to Israel, for me.
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I believe that the times of the gentiles Lk 21:24, are the same as the trib., when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, the times of the Gentiles (ToG) ended, and the trib ended.

The coming of Jesus (2nd, last) happens some time, years now, after Jerusalem is restored in Jerusalem.
 
G

garee

Banned
#45
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#45
eternally-gratefull said:
So Isreal repented and came to God?
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Remember all Israel is not Israel just as an outward Jew is not a born again Jew, born of the Spirit of Christ. Christ says; marvel not....whosover has not the eternal Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
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A

abcdef

Senior Member
#46
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
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#46
garee said:
Remember all Israel is not Israel just as an outward Jew is not a born again Jew, born of the Spirit of Christ. Christ says; marvel not....whosover has not the eternal Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
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Your right, this is why there may not be a "national" change of Israel, only a percentage, not 100% as some think.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#47
Jun 2, 2016
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#47
valiant said:
The real Jerusalem is now the heavenly Jerusalem (Gal 4; Heb 12; Revelation).

Haggai 2 was addressed to Zerubbabel and Joshua. It has been fulfilled. The desire of all nations has come.

The literal Temple is now in Heaven where the souls are 'under the altar'. The earthly Temple, filled with His glory, is now the people of God.

Its all explained in the NT.
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To those who are born of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT

Otherwuse they do not belong to (spiritual) ISRAEL (THE JERUSALEM above) and they don't even know the secrets of the KINGDOM becatse they are not born again of HIS SPIRIT

Thet haven't been baptized into CHRIST and haven't risen again in CHRIST
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#48
Jun 2, 2016
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#48
It's not "zerubabbel" whose hands laid the FOUNDATION

And it never was
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#49
#49
abcdef said:
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What event signals the end of the trib? What do you see?
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Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#50
#50
garee said:
Remember all Israel is not Israel just as an outward Jew is not a born again Jew, born of the Spirit of Christ. Christ says; marvel not....whosover has not the eternal Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
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it depends on context.

If it is speaking of spiritual Isreal or the churhc, your right, if it is speaking of physical Israel (the nation) as romans 11 is, Then all Israel is all Israel..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#51
#51
abcdef said:
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Your right, this is why there may not be a "national" change of Israel, only a percentage, not 100% as some think.
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all means all, i would leave it at that
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#52
Mar 22, 2015
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#52
abcdef said:
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The trib. revolves around Jerusalem and it's restoration to Israel, for me.
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It will not be restored as God's city. That is now in heaven (Gal 4; Heb 12)
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I believe that the times of the gentiles Lk 21:24, are the same as the trib., when Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, the times of the Gentiles (ToG) ended, and the trib ended.
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nothing will follow the times of the Gentles being fulfilled. Christ comes then.

The coming of Jesus (2nd, last) happens some time, years now, after Jerusalem is restored in Jerusalem.
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As what? A city that is displeasing to God compared with the Jerusalem above?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#54
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#54
eternally-gratefull said:
Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

POST TRIB/PRE WRATH ;)
 
A

abcdef

Senior Member
#55
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
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#55
eternally-gratefull said:
Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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It is recorded in the NT, that Jesus returned several times to the apostles, Thomas and others, Saul/Paul and John.

He also came with "clouds of armies" (Roman), to destroy Jerusalem.

But He has not come back to receive the kingdom to Himself at the resurrection/rapture.

The 2 times are often confused, one being the day of the Lord against Jerusalem, and the other the day of the Lord against the world.

Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 17 & 21, Acts 2:16-21, are the day against Jerusalem and with the times of the gentiles just beginning.

I believe that the apostles knew that the ToG's would begin after the fall of Jerusalem, but they didn't know how many years it would last until Israel was again in control of Jerusalem.

They had not been in control of Jerusalem since the Babylonian captivity (statue Dan. 2)
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#56
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#56
abcdef said:
It is recorded in the NT, that Jesus returned several times to the apostles, Thomas and others, Saul/Paul and John.

He also came with "clouds of armies" (Roman), to destroy Jerusalem.

But He has not come back to receive the kingdom to Himself at the resurrection/rapture.
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He has already received the kingdom (eg Acts 2.30 on). He did not need to 'come back'

The 2 times are often confused, one being the day of the Lord against Jerusalem, and the other the day of the Lord against the world.
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the former was in 70 ad, the latter at the end of time.

Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 17 & 21, Acts 2:16-21, are the day against Jerusalem and with the times of the gentiles just beginning.
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as long as you begin with 70 ad lol


They had not been in control of Jerusalem since the Babylonian captivity (statue Dan. 2)
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and that's their lot lol the Jerusalem that now is, is not God's city.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#57
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
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#57
eternally-gratefull said:
Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Because HE will shake both the heavens and the earth to signify what is perishable and can be removed
 
A

abcdef

Senior Member
#58
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#58
valiant said:
It will not be restored as God's city. That is now in heaven (Gal 4; Heb 12)
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I agree that the Heavenly Jerusalem is now "God's city". But there is still prophecy to be fulfilled, and I believe that the natural branches are now in control of Jerusalem.

Will you say that all the people in Israel today have no place in God's kingdom, EVER?

Do you say that they all will absolutely NEVER repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah?

Are they now, in a state of partial blessing, because of the promises that were made to the Fathers?

Just waiting for Jesus to lift the vail?


nothing will follow the times of the Gentles being fulfilled. Christ comes then.
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I agree with you basically, the ToG's ended when Jerusalem was restored to control of Jeru. 1967, Jesus will be coming for the kingdom when Jerusalem falls.



As what? A city that is displeasing to God compared with the Jerusalem above?
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A city restored to the natural branches, as promised by the statue in Dan. 2,

As promised when the ToG's end, Lk 21:24.

As promised in Rev 12, when the 3 1/2 t's end, the woman returns to Jerusalem after being in the wilderness.

As promised, the 2 witnesses are in Jerusalem now, restored from sackcloth.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#59
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
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#59
valiant said:
Ezra disagrees :)
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Ezra agrees Completely

in fact Haggai 2, Ezra 3 and Zechariah 4 all warn man to pay careful attention to THE FOUNDATION

Further sir. In the time of Ezra, Ezra would not allow anyone to have a hand in building the temple(HOUSE) for GOD unless he could provide proof of a pure priestly line

the temple will be rebuilt and men (who claim to know GOD's WORD) will ignore the words of the prophet as per Haggai 2 and as per Ezra 3

There's one STONE cut out from the mountain but not by human hands

And it's not zerubabbel
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#60
Jun 2, 2016
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#60
Before THE FOUNDATION had been laid, the people brought their offerings

and their offerings amounted to more than when men built their own foundations
 
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