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Again am you completely misunderstand me and again i remind you I have said over and over again that I do not have a firm stance on when the rapture happens nor do I care. I am not fighting against anything because the timing of when it happens or how it happens is of no concern to me i only seek to deepen the love and the bond between us and God and regardless of how it happens or when my heart will be prepared for it even if i have to go through the tribulation.
And again I do not promote the pretrib rapture
And again I do not promote the pretrib rapture
who came up with the 1000 year kingdom????????????? its only once mentioned in rev 20!!!!!!!!!!!! its symbolic look it up!!!!!!!!! the bible is a spiritual book, world isnt always world earth isnt always earth heaven isnt always physical heaven and 1000 isnt always 1000!!!!!!!!! water sometimes isnt water. water is people. masses.
Y
I love when somebody posts info about one of these hot-button topics as though they are the only ones who have things figured out correctly. I like to sit and imagine those posters sitting in their chair, feeling righteous, and self-satisfied when they choose to educate the rest of us dumb droles. As much as I'd love to go on and on about how ^THAT^ is not the way to foster discussion about a topic, I realize it's a lost cause because it's not a discussion. We've all been properly told how the bear drops a deuce in the woods, and that's that. So, the only thing left to say is:
What is ridiculous is to read where professing Christians will try to explain to us that when Jesus gave the church the description of His return to rapture the church in Matt 24 and Mark 13, that Jesus did not give the church a description of His return to rapture the church. I feel sorry for those who are so deceived that they can read Jesus description of His return for the church, and not be able to comprehend that what they just read was Jesus description of His return for the church.
samuel23, regarding "Jesus did not give the church a description of His return to rapture the church," what do you think 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:50-52 is about? It is a description of the dead being resurrected and the living being changed and caught up. Therefore, you are mistaken about there being no description.
Matt 24:29-31 and Mark 13 is scripture regarding the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. It is because of your not recognizing that the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to end the age that you err.
Matt.24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church. Those who are being gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 will be living people in their mortal bodies who will have made it through the entire wrath of God, both righteous and unrighteous. According to the parable in Matt.13, the angels, who are the harvesters, will go out and "first" collect the weeds/wicked. After that, the angels will collect the wheat/righteous.
Angels do not gather the church when the Lord appears to take us back to the Fathers house. At the time of the Lord's appearing, the dead will resurrect into those immortal and gloried bodies and will rise up to meet the Lord in the air and that without the aid of angels. Those bodies that are raised up will have their own heavenly power, as the following states:
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body"
Matt 24:29-31 and Mark 13 is scripture regarding the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. It is because of your not recognizing that the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to end the age that you err.
Matt.24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church. Those who are being gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 will be living people in their mortal bodies who will have made it through the entire wrath of God, both righteous and unrighteous. According to the parable in Matt.13, the angels, who are the harvesters, will go out and "first" collect the weeds/wicked. After that, the angels will collect the wheat/righteous.
Angels do not gather the church when the Lord appears to take us back to the Fathers house. At the time of the Lord's appearing, the dead will resurrect into those immortal and gloried bodies and will rise up to meet the Lord in the air and that without the aid of angels. Those bodies that are raised up will have their own heavenly power, as the following states:
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body"
M
It is a description of the same event which Jesus describes to Peter, James and John in the Olivet Discourse. Your "continuing problem" is that you are in 100% disagreement with Peter, James, and John who believed the Lord when He told them they needed to keep a lookout for the Abomination of Desolation. You believe Peter, James and John supported false doctrine in taking Jesus at His word.
Me oh my - who to believe? Ahwatukee or the original and founding members of the Christian era - Peter, James, John and Andrew? Decisions, decisions.
Me oh my - who to believe? Ahwatukee or the original and founding members of the Christian era - Peter, James, John and Andrew? Decisions, decisions.
M
I am far, far, FAR from being the "only one" who is PreWrath.
Good grief - you're practically suffering full-blown martyrdom. Hey, I'm am completely available for any kind of reasonable discussion. How do you think I became PreWrath to begin with? Answer: By having the willingness to step away from long-held beliefs and adopt a belief that is highly uncomfortable. Believe me - I would much rather (humanly speaking) believe I am going to be raptured to heaven "on flowery beds of ease" before "all the bad stuff happens".
What exactly are you talking about? In the OP, I made arguments in favor of my understanding of the Bible. (??) I also obviously believe these are simple matters. My little 12-year-old daughter, for example, read through the Olivet Discourse in 15 minutes and was able to routinely grasp all the basic facts. 12 years old. 15 minutes.
So...as far as you not liking the simplicity of the OP's argument...don't know how to help you there:
Jesus told the disciples to expect "great tribulation". If Peter believed Jesus regarding this teaching...then I believe Jesus regarding this teaching.
(I think that particular argumentation took only six seconds!)
Good grief - you're practically suffering full-blown martyrdom. Hey, I'm am completely available for any kind of reasonable discussion. How do you think I became PreWrath to begin with? Answer: By having the willingness to step away from long-held beliefs and adopt a belief that is highly uncomfortable. Believe me - I would much rather (humanly speaking) believe I am going to be raptured to heaven "on flowery beds of ease" before "all the bad stuff happens".
What exactly are you talking about? In the OP, I made arguments in favor of my understanding of the Bible. (??) I also obviously believe these are simple matters. My little 12-year-old daughter, for example, read through the Olivet Discourse in 15 minutes and was able to routinely grasp all the basic facts. 12 years old. 15 minutes.
So...as far as you not liking the simplicity of the OP's argument...don't know how to help you there:
Jesus told the disciples to expect "great tribulation". If Peter believed Jesus regarding this teaching...then I believe Jesus regarding this teaching.
(I think that particular argumentation took only six seconds!)
M
Wait a minute! My simple statement was that Peter, James and John...believed what Jesus told them.
How does that "conveniently" fit what I believe?? And by the way...since when is it a "convenient" belief in having a willingness to expect great tribulation, suffering, affliction, imprisonment, starvation, thirst and even death? The "convenient" doctrine is PreTrib.
Tell me where I have supposedly become confused in seeing Jesus tell the disciples they needed to look for the Abomination, followed by great tribulation...whereupon I assume (call me crazy) the disciples believed Jesus? Where did I veer?
How does that "conveniently" fit what I believe?? And by the way...since when is it a "convenient" belief in having a willingness to expect great tribulation, suffering, affliction, imprisonment, starvation, thirst and even death? The "convenient" doctrine is PreTrib.
Tell me where I have supposedly become confused in seeing Jesus tell the disciples they needed to look for the Abomination, followed by great tribulation...whereupon I assume (call me crazy) the disciples believed Jesus? Where did I veer?
M
I'm "hiding" behind something? First, you portray me as arrogantly grandstanding. But now I'm hiding. Blain, there's a lot of personal jabbing and personal attacking going on from your side...over a simple OP where I argue for the simplicity of Jesus' message in the Olivet Discourse. It isn't arrogant to believe in and argue for...the simplicity of the message. Nor I am now "hiding".
A "facade"? Now I'm a hypocrite...because I see the simple message of Jesus to His disciples...that they should expect great tribulation?
A "facade"? Now I'm a hypocrite...because I see the simple message of Jesus to His disciples...that they should expect great tribulation?
M
No idea what you're talking about. Just to be sure, I just re-read my OP. Yours is a false accusation....bordering on "bearing false witness" (one of the Ten Commandments). Was my OP spirited? Was it a bit creative? Did it express strong conviction? Yes to all three. Having a strong conviction isn't "arrogance".