New World Record: PostTrib/PreWrath now explained in only 20 seconds! Wow!

[MattTooFor]

Peter, James, John and Andrew approached Jesus at one point (2 days before He went to the cross) and asked Him what to look for in the end times. Jesus told them (in Matthew 24,25 / Mark 13 / Luke 21) they needed to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation, followed by a time of "great tribulation" and ended by a supernatural transporting of the believers into His presence...and since they obviously believed Jesus and took Him at His word...

...therefore, ANYONE who believes ANYTHING OTHER THAN what those disciples believed when they went out from this meeting with Jesus...IS BELIEVING THE WRONG THING...no matter WHAT it is.

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There you go. 20 seconds. Bada-bing bada-boom. Done.

No matter WHAT others here (or anywhere) may argue...if it contradicts the beliefs of Peter, James, John or Andrew...

...it is therefore FALSE DOCTRINE. A false belief.

The haranguing that goes on. Wow. All these ultra-complicated maze-like massive uber-confusing jungles of explanations: The bowls, the bells, the trumps, the whistles, the buzzers, the saucers...the concocted claims about 144,000 virgin "missionaries"...on and on and on.

You CANNOT contradict the Bible. You cannot contradict the beliefs of Peter, James, John or Andrew.

And by the way, once you understand and accept the "Rosetta Stone" role of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24,25 / Mark 13 / Luke 21)...the Book of Revelation opens up like a can of peaches. The topic of another thread...if I survive this thread.

 

[Blain]

Ah the old What I believe is truth is the truth no if and's or butts.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ah the old What I believe is truth is the truth no if and's or butts.

Hello Blain, the problem with MattTooFor, is that he can't understand that though the information was given to the disciples, that it was not for them nor the church. Jesus told this to his disciples as though he was speaking to them, but they have long since died, therefore, this information regarding end-times was obviously to not for them.

If we carry out that same reasoning, neither could the Lord have been speaking regarding the church and that because scripture states that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that Jesus said he would keep us out of that time of God's wrath (Rev.3:10).

Since the church cannot go through God's wrath, the information is therefore for those who will be living at the time when God's wrath is taking place. The information is also there for the church to be warning people of that coming time of wrath.

His other problem is not being able to discern that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Matt.24:30-31 is not the same event as 1 Thes.4:13-17.

 

[Blain]

Hello Blain, the problem with MattTooFor, is that he can't understand that though the information was given to the disciples, that it was not for them nor the church. Jesus told this to his disciples as though he was speaking to them, but they have long since died, therefore, this information regarding end-times was obviously to not for them.

If we carry out that same reasoning, neither could the Lord have been speaking regarding the church and that because scripture states that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that Jesus said he would keep us out of that time of God's wrath (Rev.3:10).

Since the church cannot go through God's wrath, the information is therefore for those who will be living at the time when God's wrath is taking place. The information is also there for the church to be warning people of that coming time of wrath.

His other problem is not being able to discern that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Matt.24:30-31 is not the same event as 1 Thes.4:13-17.

I agree completely. Jesus spoke to them about this and he even gave them all the signs to look for as if it would happen any day but if you notice though the apostles constantly and excitedly awaited the rapture and taught of it to others as if it would happen any day it never did. The biblical reasoning of course means that Jesus was speaking of a time after theirs, and yes there is a vast difference between the rapture and the Lords return and we who are his were never appointed to wrath.

As I have said many times Bible prophecy is the meat of meats and if one attempts to chew this meat when they have yet be able to chew the ordinary meat then this kind of stuff is what you will receive. And sadly far to many people attempt to chew this meat without being able to even gnaw on it

 

[popeye]

The curtain opens and the magician enters.

" I will prove post trib rapture"

Leaves out pretrib verses

POOF!!! POSTRIB RABBIT APPEARS

 

[popeye]

Rehash.

Same anemic mess

Click bait

 

[Blain]

What i don't understand is the thought process people seem to have. I mean yes there are doctrines and beliefs I believe are truth but to speak your view and your belief on doctrine and arrogantly have the what I say is the truth no if and's or butts kind of attitude not even open for correction or discussion because your truth is set in stone... I simply do not understand that kind of mentality.

I mean I would feel incredibly arrogant and full of myself if I came on here and posted my beliefs and my views and said they were the utter truth and no matter what anyone said or how they tried to reason with me nor the scriptures they showed to help me understand I would reject it all and continue boasting that i am right no matter what. We have eyes to see but who among us see? we have ears to hear but who among us actually listens?

 

[tanakh]

I agree completely. Jesus spoke to them about this and he even gave them all the signs to look for as if it would happen any day but if you notice though the apostles constantly and excitedly awaited the rapture and taught of it to others as if it would happen any day it never did. The biblical reasoning of course means that Jesus was speaking of a time after theirs, and yes there is a vast difference between the rapture and the Lords return and we who are his were never appointed to wrath.

As I have said many times Bible prophecy is the meat of meats and if one attempts to chew this meat when they have yet be able to chew the ordinary meat then this kind of stuff is what you will receive. And sadly far to many people attempt to chew this meat without being able to even gnaw on it

I doubt that Peter thought it would happen any day because Jesus told him what would happen to him when he was an old man. He probably had about thirty more years to live before then. Jesus also told them to go into the world and make disciples of all nations. Quite a tall order if they expected him to return at any day.

 

[Blain]

I doubt that Peter thought it would happen any day because Jesus told him what would happen to him when he was an old man. He probably had about thirty more years to live before then. Jesus also told them to go into the world and make disciples of all nations. Quite a tall order if they expected him to return at any day.

True there is that to consider as well. The thing with the rapture and with bible prophecy in general is that since there is a vast difference of understanding and spiritual maturity there are so many different views and beliefs that people consider truth. But the way I see it to be able to chew the meat that is bible prophecy you don't have to have all the correct views and understanding because no one will ever have it all right.
Rather I think to be able to chew bible prophecy is to have a general understanding of how bible prophecy works in scripture and also to be able to discuss it in a mature and Christ like manner without getting heated and constantly saying how your right and others are wrong.

You will always find others whose beliefs understanding and views contradict your own that is un avoidable, however that doesn't mean we cannot discuss things like the rapture and still be closer than brother. The problem I mainly see is many people try to discuss things like this without being mature enough to actually discuss them it just ends up as attacks and name calling and i am right your wrong, especially sensitive topics like this. There are only a few on this forum I would consider mature enough to discuss these kinds of things

 

[MattTooFor]

Ah the old What I believe is truth is the truth no if and's or butts.

Exactly wrong: I specifically said this is about what PETER, JAMES, JOHN AND ANDREW believed. Not what I believe.

What did Peter, James and John believe when they went out from the Olivet Discourse? They believed what Jesus told them - LOL.

It took you just one post to get off-track and become confused? Wow.

 

[MattTooFor]

the problem with MattTooFor, is that he can't understand that though the information was given to the disciples, that it was not for them

You walked straight into the pitfall I warned you about:

Peter and the others went out from the Olivet Discourse believing they needed to keep a lookout for the Abomination of Desolation (etc.).

YOU believe they believed wrongly. YOU believe they were under a mistaken impression. YOU believe they held to a false belief...to a false doctrine.

But of course, that is an absurdity. And PreTrib is therefore an absurdity.

And even worse:

Since they obviously believed what Jesus told them (regardless of your position that Jesus gave them a mistaken, false impression)...they therefore went out and began to PASS ALONG THESE "FALSE AND MISTAKEN" BELIEFS...to all the others...and therefore, they were (according to you) teaching falsely. Teaching false doctrine.


You haven't thought this through, Ahwatukee.

 

[MattTooFor]

Jesus told this to his disciples as though he was speaking to them, but they have long since died, therefore, this information regarding end-times was obviously to not for them.

I wanted to comment of this also:

As far as the survival of PreTrib doctrine is concerned...it matters not if Peter, James and John died later.

What matters is...they went out from the Olivet Discourse believing what Jesus had told them...and they were therefore (according to absurd PreTrib consignment)...believers in false doctrine...and TEACHERS of false doctrine.

Additionally, if Jesus sent His disciples out from the Olivet Discourse KNOWING His disciples had this "mistaken understanding"...and therefore knowing they would pass along (and teach) these "mistaken views" about a post-trib "gathering" to all the other Jesus-followers...this would make Jesus an accessory to false doctrine. He would be, in effect, a false teacher.




In any case, Jesus clearly anticipated the possibility these particular four disciples might not live to see these events...when He conceded He did not know the "day or hour" of these events. They could be thousands of years into the future, for all He knew.

 

[bluto]

You said this ahwatukee, "

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

Jesus told this to his disciples as though he was speaking to them, but they have long since died, therefore, this information regarding end-times was obviously to not for them."

Since I'm sure most of us believe the Apostle John was the last one to die then how come he said the following at 1John2:18?
Children it is the last hour and just as you heard that "ANTICHRIST IS COMING" (singular), even now many antichrist have arisen, from this we know that it is the last hour."

If we follow your line of reasoning that it was only for the disciples and they died then please tell us who is the rest of 1 John, second John and third John are for?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Blain]

Exactly wrong: I specifically said this is about what PETER, JAMES, JOHN AND ANDREW believed. Not what I believe.

What did Peter, James and John believe when they went out from the Olivet Discourse? They believed what Jesus told them - LOL.

It took you just one post to get off-track and become confused? Wow.

I'm aware that is what you said but that isn't how it is. You can say this what Peter and them believe but this is what you interpret them to have believed and it conveniently fits what you believe. I know this kind of mentality it's basically the same as people who post scriptures that fit into their beliefs and say see? Not my words but Gods. In the same manner you are hiding behind the apostles saying it's not your beliefs but theirs when in the end it's really what you believe and you are using them as a front to try prove your beliefs as fact.

You can say this isn't true and perhaps even in your mind it isn't but as one who searches the truth hidden within the truth I can see clearly past the facade.

 

[Johnny_B]

Hello Blain, the problem with MattTooFor, is that he can't understand that though the information was given to the disciples, that it was not for them nor the church. Jesus told this to his disciples as though he was speaking to them, but they have long since died, therefore, this information regarding end-times was obviously to not for them.

If we carry out that same reasoning, neither could the Lord have been speaking regarding the church and that because scripture states that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that Jesus said he would keep us out of that time of God's wrath (Rev.3:10).

Since the church cannot go through God's wrath, the information is therefore for those who will be living at the time when God's wrath is taking place. The information is also there for the church to be warning people of that coming time of wrath.

His other problem is not being able to discern that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Matt.24:30-31 is not the same event as 1 Thes.4:13-17.

Ahwatukee, you helped me realize something, we need to establish a doctrine with two or three witnesses. I like three one OT, one Gospel and one epistles. We have the Lord rescuing His people for His judgement in Genesis, we have Jesus verifying those and applying them to the Church and we have the epistles saying He will not let us suffer wrath. It's also clear that there is more than one abominations of desolation, Antiochus Epiphanies, Titus and the man of sin to come.

 

[Blain]

Ahwatukee, you helped me realize something, we need to establish a doctrine with two or three witnesses. I like three one OT, one Gospel and one epistles. We have the Lord rescuing His people for His judgement in Genesis, we have Jesus verifying those and applying them to the Church and we have the epistles saying He will not let us suffer wrath. It's also clear that there is more than one abominations of desolation, Antiochus Epiphanies, Titus and the man of sin to come.

Ahwatukee is one of the few people I consider able to discuss bible prophecy not just because he can discuss things and keep his cool but because more than most people i have seen he has an understanding of it that is more in depth than most people I have come across

 

[bluto]

I'm aware that is what you said but that isn't how it is. You can say this what Peter and them believe but this is what you interpret them to have believed and it conveniently fits what you believe. I know this kind of mentality it's basically the same as people who post scriptures that fit into their beliefs and say see? Not my words but Gods. In the same manner you are hiding behind the apostles saying it's not your beliefs but theirs when in the end it's really what you believe and you are using them as a front to try prove your beliefs as fact.

You can say this isn't true and perhaps even in your mind it isn't but as one who searches the truth hidden within the truth I can see clearly past the facade.

Your argument blain is "fallacious." In other words your basing your argument on a mistaken belief. How can you prove that matttoofor is wrong in what he said and your right because you just admitted you understand his mentality and you can clearly see his "facade?" You, me and everyone else does not know the operation of one's mind. All we can go by is what is said.

So when Jesus addressed the question the disciples ask Him at Matthew 24:3 on what basis or conclusion would you come to that the disciples misinterpreted or misunderstood what Jesus said? They must have believed Him because they wrote things that "BACKED" up what Jesus said. The Apostle John backed up what He said at 1 John 2:18. The Apostle Paul backed up Jesus at 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[samuel23]

Jesus gave his return to Peter, Andrew, James and John who were later called the pillars of the CHURCH, and Jesus told them to teach what He had taught them to the church...Yet you claim Jesus teaching WAS NOT FOR THE CHURCH?? That is total and absolute nonsense.

 

[Blain]

Your argument blain is "fallacious." In other words your basing your argument on a mistaken belief. How can you prove that matttoofor is wrong in what he said and your right because you just admitted you understand his mentality and you can clearly see his "facade?" You, me and everyone else does not know the operation of one's mind. All we can go by is what is said.

So when Jesus addressed the question the disciples ask Him at Matthew 24:3 on what basis or conclusion would you come to that the disciples misinterpreted or misunderstood what Jesus said? They must have believed Him because they wrote things that "BACKED" up what Jesus said. The Apostle John backed up what He said at 1 John 2:18. The Apostle Paul backed up Jesus at 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

It is true I do not fully understand his mentality as only god can truly know ones hearts however I have studied Psychology and so i have learned how to pick up on certain mentality tactics even if the person themselves are unaware of it. Have you ever noticed that when a person is lying they display certain traits that relate to when they are being dishonest? For me I start scratching my arm or my hand or my shoulder for some the blink much more than more others use words in a way that is different from their normal speech.

Psychology can also be applied to all other areas like this especially if one is accustomed to seeing a tactic like this they then can easily recognize the tactic when they see it. I called it a facade and it is however it's possible that matt is unaware of the facade he is using often times we don't see or recognize the mental tactics we use as often times it requires an outside look of ourselves to be able to see and recognize it which is why it's so important to have brothers and sisters in Christ to point such things out for us.
I am not claiming to know his heart i am simply claiming to know the mental tactic he is using

 

[samuel23]

It is really very simple. Satan came to Jesus and offered to Him the crown without the cross, and Jesus rejected the offer of Satan. Satan has came to the contemporary church and offered to them the rapture without the tribulation, and the contemporary church has accepted the offer of Satan.