another ? about baptism

[pickles]

I know there is alot of different opinions on this, but it is an important question to me.
We are all asked to be baptised, but is infant baptism not a true baptism?
I have seen no where in scriptures that says it isnt, but nothing that referances if it is.
I have always accepted my baptism as a baby as my baptism in Jesus.
When another told me I had to deny it and be rebaptised, it felt like a lie to Jesus to do so.
I plead with those inclined to debate this to try and not do so, as this is a serious question Im asking.
In my heart I have always believed in my baptism in Jesus, and know I am.
But because of comments I ask? Am I disobaying Jesus?
I have no problem with a second baptism, I just have a problem with saying that my baptism was not valid. A pastor told me I had to deny the first and that I was condemned because the first one was not valid. Only when I denyed the first could a true baptism be performed, in his words.
I have never had a problem with infant baptism as Im sure if I were a parent when John the baptist was around I would bring him my child to be baptised.
So what does Jesus say to this or scriptures say?
Ive searched but know many here are better able to answer this.
I want to add that the elders of the church where this pastor had worked did apoligise for his comments.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles

From what I understand, the baptism portion of the salvation plan is done as an act of obedience. It is symbolic of dying away, being washed clean of the sins of the flesh, and becoming a new person in Christ.

If that is what you believe the role of baptism symbolizes, then I could see how because an infant has no sin, neither can an infant obediently follow the command of baptism, so you never actually made the choice to be baptised when you believed. I think it just depends on what your beliefs about baptism are.

I personally was baptised at the age of five. However after nearly 16 years away from God, I don't think I truly understood the purpose of baptism at that age, because I did not yet have any sin to be accountable for. When I came back to God, and repented of my sin, I chose to be baptised again as an adult, and I do not regret that decision at all! It was a necessary physical act of faith.

[pickles]

Thankyou shellebelle.
God bless, pickles

[giantone]

There are many Baptisms in the Bible, no infant baptisms though. What you have believed in your faith counts completely, in fact there is a baptism of repentance and that is more important than the other kinds of baptisms.You don't gain salvation from water baptism but it tells the world Who you belong to and it is another platform to use to bind faith. At our church we have baby dedications, no infant baptisms and when they get old enough to say publicly "I will follow and love Jesus" then they get water baptized, immersed. You should get water baptized it will make the devil miserable. In many countries if you become a Christian it is no problem, but but if you get water baptized they will kill you.

[wwjd_kilden]

I don't think the infant baptism is "true" baptism, I see it as more symbolic. - If it were true, wouldn't that mean one could get a "free ticket" into heaven?

however, it seems from the bible that those who are not able to grasp the concept of faith will be saved, baptized or not. So in my opinion, infant baptism is more a ritual of tradition and showing the community one wants the kid to be raised christian, than having to do with salvation

when the child is older, it will choose faith or not by itself

[lighthousejohn]

Originally Posted by pickles

I know there is alot of different opinions on this, but it is an important question to me.
We are all asked to be baptised, but is infant baptism not a true baptism?
I have seen no where in scriptures that says it isnt, but nothing that referances if it is.
I have always accepted my baptism as a baby as my baptism in Jesus.
When another told me I had to deny it and be rebaptised, it felt like a lie to Jesus to do so.
I plead with those inclined to debate this to try and not do so, as this is a serious question Im asking.
In my heart I have always believed in my baptism in Jesus, and know I am.
But because of comments I ask? Am I disobaying Jesus?
I have no problem with a second baptism, I just have a problem with saying that my baptism was not valid. A pastor told me I had to deny the first and that I was condemned because the first one was not valid. Only when I denyed the first could a true baptism be performed, in his words.
I have never had a problem with infant baptism as Im sure if I were a parent when John the baptist was around I would bring him my child to be baptised.
So what does Jesus say to this or scriptures say?
Ive searched but know many here are better able to answer this.
I want to add that the elders of the church where this pastor had worked did apoligise for his comments.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles

Pickles,

The Bible does not approve or reject infant baptism. It is silent on the subject. We can infer from the scriptures however that baptism is a outward demonstration of a purposeful decision to follow Christ as He was baptised by John the Baptist before beginning His ministry. Infants have no sin although the Bible says that we are all born into sin. Infants also have no awareness of or ability to make a valid decision to repent an to follow Christ.

You are not condemned bcause of your infant baptism because that was a decision of your parents and not you. As you know, your parents cannot "decide" for you about whether to follow Jesus or not. That is your decision and I know that you have done that.

When we recognize our sinfullness and agree with God that we are indeed sinners and ask Christ to be our saviour; one of the first things we should ask for is to be baptised. This is a symbolic representation of our death to sin, our burial with Christ an our resurrection. Baptism has no effect one way or another on our salvation.

There is nothing wrong with being rebaptised as a believer in Christ. It is your decision and nothing I or anybody else says is important. It is a decision between you and God.

In Christ,
John

Hi Pickles,
An interesting point is that the word baptize did not exist before it was used as a transliteration of the Greek word baptizō which means to immerse. Why didn't the English translators use immerse to translate it? Because they were Catholic and Catholics teach sprinkling or as a friend of mine used to say, "dry cleaned". I grew up Lutheran and we dry cleaned as well.

But if baptism has taken on this new meaning with such a large group of believers, maybe we should look at what was done in Jesus' and the writers of the New Testament's day.

A baptism was used with a status change. If you were living a sinful life and wanted to change, you were to turn 180 degrees from your old life. The Hebrew word for this turning around is teshuva and it is translated repent. Once you repent of your old life, you are ceremonially buried to your old life symbolized by being underwater. Being underwater is the closest you will come to being dead, after all. When you rise up out of the water, it was customary for a young Jewish boy to call out "BORN AGAIN". That's right, born again is a Jewish concept and it blew me away the first time I read that.

So, the concept of baptism to a first century Jew was that you would die off to your old sinful self and be born again a new person now able to approach your God. In fact, if you were going to approach God, he expected you to baptise yourself first. This is why even Jesus went through a baptism before he was beginning his ministry.

Also, this is something that can be repeated over and over again whenever you want to start again. But it is the repenting part that separates you from your old self. Without the repenting, a baptism is just, --- a bath.

I encourage you to look at everywhere it talks about baptism and see if this doesn't fit what the writers were thinking. Also, when Paul talks about being buried with Christ, and rising as a new person.

Hope this helps.

[MaggieMye]

Leave it to the Catholics to try to combine DEDICATION and baptism. It's not Biblical, it's just water on the head....gets the kid wet and makes him/her cry!

Maggie

[dscherck]

Originally Posted by MaggieMye

Leave it to the Catholics to try to combine DEDICATION and baptism. It's not Biblical, it's just water on the head....gets the kid wet and makes him/her cry!

Maggie

Actually there's considerable evidence from the Scriptures and from the history of the Early Christians supporting the practice of infant baptism. It's "believer's baptism" that is the new practice.

Keep in mind that not only do we Catholics practice infant baptism, the Oriental Orthodox do as well as the Eastern Orthodox. And the Oriental Orthodox and the Catholics parted ways in the 3rd century, so the practice is at least that old. Not to mention we see Paul talk about how baptism is the circumcision of Christ. Jews were circumcised at the age of 8 days, it is natural then that Christians who saw baptism as the new circumcision would baptize their infants.

For a more in depth understanding of Catholic teachings on baptism I would humbly present the following few links, all with numerous references to Scripture and historical teachings.

Infant Baptism
Early Teachings on Infant Baptism
Scripture Catholic - SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
Scripture Catholic - SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

I hope that these help explain that the idea of Infant baptism is not something that was just made up, but rather a practice with strong Scriptural and historical support.

In Christ's love.

[Dmurray]

Hey,

Personally I don't agree with infant baptism because you can't fully submerge an infant into the water. The word baptsim from the strongs concordance reference is this:

baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

The way I had explained to me is like this: Salvation is when we apply the Gospel to our life. The Death, the Burial and the Resurrection.

Now, Baptism represents the Burial:
"Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Now when you bury someone, you don't just lay them on top of the ground and sprinkle dirt on them. You immerse them into the ground and cover them with dirt. Likewise we have to be fully immersed into the water to bury our"self" or our sinful nature, because our sinful nature dies in repentance, we die to ourself.

Also, Baptism is like signing a contract, you are making a commitment to live your life for Christ and to turn 180 degrees from yourself and your sin that you have done in the past, to wash us as clean as snow in his blood. When we're an infant we can't recognize that we're a sinner and chose to live our life for Christ.

Repentance must come first before baptism, and an infant can't repent because they haven't sinned, they don't even know what the word sin is.

"Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

See how Peter made sure that repent was first, because we must die before we can be buried.

I hope this helps some. Just seek God and pray about what HE wants you to do.

God Bless.

[arabian_princess]

what is baptism even in arabic i didnt understand it???????

[mizpah]

Dear pickles,

I understand your concern.

The mark that a person truly loves the Lord is obedience.Jesus commanded all those who believed in Him to be baptized in water.Water baptism is the first act of obedience a new believer should do.Pls read 1 John2:3,Matthew 28:18-19.To be baptized means to be totally immersed.The act of going under the water and rising up from it is a picture of what has happened to the believer in union with Jesus Christ.Jesus was the perfect example of water baptism.
He was baprized by John the baptist when was already an adult.An infant is not being baptize but rather didicated to the Lord.Jesus Christ was didicated by Mary and Joseph when He was an infant.

[pickles]

Thankyou all so much for your help. The part that concered me was denying my baptism as an infant. If I had ever been without Jesus and then accepted him I would not see this as my baptism. But I have known Jesus all of my life. Maby not the way some would consider valid, but I look to Jesus on this and I remember talking to him when I was still in diapers. I have tried to discount this but I cant,Jesus has always been there and I only know that I have always loved him.
Now being raised in the catholis church I also had confermation, an annoiting of oil and a promise to love Our Lord Jesus all your life. I was happy to do this.
I have no problim getting baptised agian, just to make sure all the ts are crossed. It was discounting my original baptism that concerned me.
Ive never seen it as anything less than my baptism into Jesus.
It seems the scriptures do not demand this in Jesus, what is more important is the confession and commitment.
I just wanted to make sure that I was not in disobeadiance.
Again thankyou all.
God bless, pickles

Baptism is two things. It is a symbolic acting out of your new birth and it is the public proclaimation of your faith. In my opinion, your present faith validates your baptism, not the other way around. Rest in the Lord.

[pickles]

Thankyou char.
God bless, pickles

[dscherck]

Originally Posted by Dmurray

Hey,

Personally I don't agree with infant baptism because you can't fully submerge an infant into the water. The word baptsim from the strongs concordance reference is this:

baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

The way I had explained to me is like this: Salvation is when we apply the Gospel to our life. The Death, the Burial and the Resurrection.

Now, Baptism represents the Burial:
"Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Now when you bury someone, you don't just lay them on top of the ground and sprinkle dirt on them. You immerse them into the ground and cover them with dirt. Likewise we have to be fully immersed into the water to bury our"self" or our sinful nature, because our sinful nature dies in repentance, we die to ourself.

Also, Baptism is like signing a contract, you are making a commitment to live your life for Christ and to turn 180 degrees from yourself and your sin that you have done in the past, to wash us as clean as snow in his blood. When we're an infant we can't recognize that we're a sinner and chose to live our life for Christ.

Repentance must come first before baptism, and an infant can't repent because they haven't sinned, they don't even know what the word sin is.

"Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

See how Peter made sure that repent was first, because we must die before we can be buried.

I hope this helps some. Just seek God and pray about what HE wants you to do.

God Bless.

That is the normal method of baptism, but early on in Christian history there arose situations where water was scarce. Keep in mind that much of the middle east, where Christianity started is an arid place. Should the early Christians missionaries visiting the nomadic tribes in the deserts tell them they couldn't be baptized because there wasn't enough water to fully immerse them? Or perhaps they should tell the invalids who had difficulty being moved that they couldn't be baptized because it was near impossible for them to be fully immersed? The practice of sprinkling and pouring in those cases was used. The earliest Christian communities all accepted those forms of baptism as valid. We can see evidence of this in the writings of the early Christians as well. Full immersion is indeed well and good, it's the preferred method, but we cannot deny baptism to people who live in arid areas or who are not physically capable of being immersed.

[Dmurray]

The greek word for sprinkling is raptizo fyi. And we're not in a society where water is scarce therefore there is No need to sprinkle, and infant baptism is man made. It was brought into society by the Counsel of Nicea.

[dscherck]

Originally Posted by Dmurray

The greek word for sprinkling is raptizo fyi. And we're not in a society where water is scarce therefore there is No need to sprinkle, and infant baptism is man made. It was brought into society by the Counsel of Nicea.

The first council of Nicea was in 325 AD. Some of the earliest references to infant baptism in the Christian church are from Irenaeus who wrote in 190 AD the following:

"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age"

Hippolytus (an early Christian presbyter and martyr) writes to us from 215 AD saying,

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them"

Cyprian of Carthage, another early Christian leader says the following to us from about 253 AD,

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

"If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwords they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (ibid., 64:5).

Just to put things into perspective, the first quote is from a man who learned the Christian faith from Polycarp. Polycarp was an early leader of the Christian church who studied at the foot of John the beloved apostle, author of the gospel of John.

And when one looks directly to the Scriptures we hear the words of Our Lord telling us, "Let the children come to me . . . for to such belongs the kingdom of God."

[pickles]

It the past few days God Our Father is showing me that our obediance can come in ways that I never knew possible.
We live in a world and body with restrictions, But nothing is impossible with God!
He is the maker and creator, the mercy and grace given in Jesus!
The power in His Holy Spirit.
He is the judge and decider.
In Jesus, I will , all that God Our Father asks.
Not by my or our power, but in His!
In Jesus is our baptism, our life eternal!

Thankyou all and God bless, pickles

[greatkraw]

Originally Posted by pickles

I know there is alot of different opinions on this, but it is an important question to me.
We are all asked to be baptised, but is infant baptism not a true baptism?
I have seen no where in scriptures that says it isnt, but nothing that referances if it is.
I have always accepted my baptism as a baby as my baptism in Jesus.
When another told me I had to deny it and be rebaptised, it felt like a lie to Jesus to do so.
I plead with those inclined to debate this to try and not do so, as this is a serious question Im asking.
In my heart I have always believed in my baptism in Jesus, and know I am.
But because of comments I ask? Am I disobaying Jesus?
I have no problem with a second baptism, I just have a problem with saying that my baptism was not valid. A pastor told me I had to deny the first and that I was condemned because the first one was not valid. Only when I denyed the first could a true baptism be performed, in his words.
I have never had a problem with infant baptism as Im sure if I were a parent when John the baptist was around I would bring him my child to be baptised.
So what does Jesus say to this or scriptures say?
Ive searched but know many here are better able to answer this.
I want to add that the elders of the church where this pastor had worked did apoligise for his comments.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles

people who talk about baptism are all wet