Are we justified by works?
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Hi d,
Just thinking out loud here.
When it comes to types and shadows, they are usually an outward sign of an inward reality. So I'm not sure baptism is the reality. But I'll think on it.
Baptism is another outward sign, displaying the reality of our identification with Christ in that we died and were buried and rose with Christ.
I've always considered that the circumcision of the heart is the reality of OT circumcision. Circumcision was a cut in the flesh as an outward sign of an inward reality that you were the people of God.
When God takes His scalpel and circumcises out hearts, He removes the foreskin from a heart of stone to reveal a heart of flesh - it's Him calling us His chosen, separated people.
Just thinking out loud here.
When it comes to types and shadows, they are usually an outward sign of an inward reality. So I'm not sure baptism is the reality. But I'll think on it.
Baptism is another outward sign, displaying the reality of our identification with Christ in that we died and were buried and rose with Christ.
I've always considered that the circumcision of the heart is the reality of OT circumcision. Circumcision was a cut in the flesh as an outward sign of an inward reality that you were the people of God.
When God takes His scalpel and circumcises out hearts, He removes the foreskin from a heart of stone to reveal a heart of flesh - it's Him calling us His chosen, separated people.
Why do people use such extremes like this to try and prove their point.
Firstly I want to say anything that falls short of God's standard is sin. We grade sin but God does not. In the eyes of God rape is a sin, to not honour your mother and father is a sin, and so on.
It is not my job to consider whether one is righteous. That is Gods call and not mine.
It amazes me that people ask questions like you do, they also say murder.
To me it's like setting a snare to prove my point correct and yours wrong.
A Christian is someone who has placed thier genuine faith in Jesus and wants to be like him, follow him, listen to him.
Then we have a voice only Christian. Over here in the UK people will call themselves Christians.
Why? The reason is because they live in where the main faith is Christianity.
In a recent survey people were asked what religious identity do you hold?
The majority said "Christian"
When further drilled down the majority when asked "Do you believe in Jesus? The majority said NO.
Therefore they are not Christians, followers of Jesus.
So if you don't mind I would encourage you to not pose such ridiculous extremes in order to try to prove others wrong and you right.
Firstly I want to say anything that falls short of God's standard is sin. We grade sin but God does not. In the eyes of God rape is a sin, to not honour your mother and father is a sin, and so on.
It is not my job to consider whether one is righteous. That is Gods call and not mine.
It amazes me that people ask questions like you do, they also say murder.
To me it's like setting a snare to prove my point correct and yours wrong.
A Christian is someone who has placed thier genuine faith in Jesus and wants to be like him, follow him, listen to him.
Then we have a voice only Christian. Over here in the UK people will call themselves Christians.
Why? The reason is because they live in where the main faith is Christianity.
In a recent survey people were asked what religious identity do you hold?
The majority said "Christian"
When further drilled down the majority when asked "Do you believe in Jesus? The majority said NO.
Therefore they are not Christians, followers of Jesus.
So if you don't mind I would encourage you to not pose such ridiculous extremes in order to try to prove others wrong and you right.
My apologies if that offended you. This is a reason why I think most of us are here. Wanting to discuss and understand the word of the Lord. And to frank, am not trying to say am right. It's a way of me trying to be realistic and understand exactly what the word teaches us. And you need to remember that we are unique and our opinions are different. And how we express ourselves is different.
Hi Mavunda,
You're thinking of the scripture "Lord, Lord" correct. And Jesus said only he who does the will of my father in heaven will have eternal life.
Well that's what James is talking about. Those who have genuine faith will have works of obedience. That's what James means when he says works. It means obedience. Those who say "Lord, Lord" are doing outwards signs (works) but they're not works of obedience. That's the difference. The genuine faith will do works of obedience.
You're thinking of the scripture "Lord, Lord" correct. And Jesus said only he who does the will of my father in heaven will have eternal life.
Well that's what James is talking about. Those who have genuine faith will have works of obedience. That's what James means when he says works. It means obedience. Those who say "Lord, Lord" are doing outwards signs (works) but they're not works of obedience. That's the difference. The genuine faith will do works of obedience.
Fraid not
Abraham came from a pagan, Gentile family, and was serving God before he was circumcised.
However, Abraham was neither a Jew nor an Israelite. The name “Jew” comes from the name “Judah.” Judahwas a great-grandson of Abraham, born after Abraham had died. Judahwas the beginning of the tribe of Judah, which was the tribe of King David and later of Jesus.
All Israelites came to be known as “Jews” because of the prominence of that tribe. In fact, the country of the Jews was known as Judea in the time of Jesus, a name that also came from Judah.
In the same way, Abraham was not an Israelite. Israel is the name God gave to Abraham’s grandson, Jacob (again, after Abraham was dead). The Israelites were the descendants of Israel. One of the Twelve Tribes of Israel was the tribe of Judah, who eventually gave their name to all of the nation.
So, Abraham was the Father of the nation of Israel and the Father of the Jews – but he himself was neither Israelite not Jew.
Abraham came from a pagan, Gentile family, and was serving God before he was circumcised.
However, Abraham was neither a Jew nor an Israelite. The name “Jew” comes from the name “Judah.” Judahwas a great-grandson of Abraham, born after Abraham had died. Judahwas the beginning of the tribe of Judah, which was the tribe of King David and later of Jesus.
All Israelites came to be known as “Jews” because of the prominence of that tribe. In fact, the country of the Jews was known as Judea in the time of Jesus, a name that also came from Judah.
In the same way, Abraham was not an Israelite. Israel is the name God gave to Abraham’s grandson, Jacob (again, after Abraham was dead). The Israelites were the descendants of Israel. One of the Twelve Tribes of Israel was the tribe of Judah, who eventually gave their name to all of the nation.
So, Abraham was the Father of the nation of Israel and the Father of the Jews – but he himself was neither Israelite not Jew.
Hi,
Not offended, the question you posed I have heard many times and normally there is a hidden agenda behind it.
I offer my apologies if I have offended you and also if you feel I have judged you. Read if your response I feel I have so I am sorry.
We are unique and our opinions are and we express ourselves are different.
We all seek the same thing, unity in Christ, learning more and wanting to be like him.
Your brother in Christ
Bill
Not offended, the question you posed I have heard many times and normally there is a hidden agenda behind it.
I offer my apologies if I have offended you and also if you feel I have judged you. Read if your response I feel I have so I am sorry.
We are unique and our opinions are and we express ourselves are different.
We all seek the same thing, unity in Christ, learning more and wanting to be like him.
Your brother in Christ
Bill
Not likely....
Abraham believed GOD and it was put to his account for righteousness....
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
David spoke of the blessedness of a man to who God IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT the deeds of the LAW<--GOOD DEEDS and WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
PAUL who was inspired (and YOU are not) concluded that a man was JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW (WORKS)
PAUL-->ROMANS, GALATIANS-->Justified by faith before GOD void of works
JAMES-->James-->The invisible faith that JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD void of WORKS is SEEN and JUSTIFIED BEFORE MEN based upon the works with are the RESULT of the faith and salvation one already POSSESSES in CHRIST
Your right...stop hiding behind the bushes of a false blend of faith and works to be justified before God
^ Galatians defines your blend as a false gospel of a different kind, no power to save, double cursed and false!
Abraham believed GOD and it was put to his account for righteousness....
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
David spoke of the blessedness of a man to who God IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT the deeds of the LAW<--GOOD DEEDS and WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
PAUL who was inspired (and YOU are not) concluded that a man was JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW (WORKS)
PAUL-->ROMANS, GALATIANS-->Justified by faith before GOD void of works
JAMES-->James-->The invisible faith that JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD void of WORKS is SEEN and JUSTIFIED BEFORE MEN based upon the works with are the RESULT of the faith and salvation one already POSSESSES in CHRIST
Your right...stop hiding behind the bushes of a false blend of faith and works to be justified before God
^ Galatians defines your blend as a false gospel of a different kind, no power to save, double cursed and false!
You must distinguish between one who claims he is a Christian and one who truly believes in Christ. The latter would never be a serial rapist (I would question whether the former would too).
If he truly believes in Christ, he has every right to believe that Christ's promises to keep him will prove true. It is not a heresy but a fact.
If he truly believes in Christ, he has every right to believe that Christ's promises to keep him will prove true. It is not a heresy but a fact.
The Christ you are talking about was not a Sinner, yet he died for our sins. On earth he was a son of man yet he did not sin and remain righteous. For he is Lord. Abram had faith we can't dispute that. And his works were based on Faith...hence he did not ask questions when God told him to sacrifices his son.
[h=1]Some examples of faith in action:
Hebrews 11New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]By Faith We Understand[/h]11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
[h=3]Faith at the Dawn of History[/h][SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; [SUP][a][/SUP] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
[h=3]Faithful Abraham[/h][SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[SUP][b][/SUP] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
[h=3]The Heavenly Hope[/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[SUP][c][/SUP] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
[h=3]The Faith of the Patriarchs[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, [SUP]18 [/SUP]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
[h=3]The Faith of Moses[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, [SUP]25 [/SUP]choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, [SUP]26 [/SUP]esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in[SUP][e][/SUP] Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. [SUP]28 [/SUP]By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.
[h=3]By Faith They Overcame[/h][SUP]30 [/SUP]By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. [SUP]31 [/SUP]By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: [SUP]33 [/SUP]who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[SUP][f][/SUP] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— [SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, [SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
Hebrews 11New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]By Faith We Understand[/h]11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
[h=3]Faith at the Dawn of History[/h][SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; [SUP][a][/SUP] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
[h=3]Faithful Abraham[/h][SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[SUP][b][/SUP] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
[h=3]The Heavenly Hope[/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[SUP][c][/SUP] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
[h=3]The Faith of the Patriarchs[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, [SUP]18 [/SUP]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
[h=3]The Faith of Moses[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, [SUP]25 [/SUP]choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, [SUP]26 [/SUP]esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in[SUP][e][/SUP] Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. [SUP]28 [/SUP]By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.
[h=3]By Faith They Overcame[/h][SUP]30 [/SUP]By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. [SUP]31 [/SUP]By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: [SUP]33 [/SUP]who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[SUP][f][/SUP] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— [SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, [SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.