Are we justified by works?

[Chris1975]

[SUP]JAMES 2v18-24

18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[SUP][d][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][e][/SUP] works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][g][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

If you don't understand the above, then your theology needs a rethink.

 

[Susanna]

I'll fetch some popcorn because this is gonna get rough.

 

[kaylagrl]

[SUP]JAMES 2v18-24

18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[SUP][d][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][e][/SUP] works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][g][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

If you don't understand the above, then your theology needs a rethink.

We're saved BY grace FOR good works. Simple.

 

[BillG]

[SUP]JAMES 2v18-24

18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[SUP][d][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][e][/SUP] works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][g][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

If you don't understand the above, then your theology needs a rethink.

Hi Chris

Can you clarify what you mean by justified or how you think it relates to the passages you have posted.

Ta

 

[MavundaB]

justification on this case is lawful. In short, Faith and commandments(the law/doing good), go hand in hand. You need both to see the Kingdom of God.

 

[Grace777x70]

True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind. Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.

We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10[/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need - not as in obtaining righteousness before God.

 

[dcontroversal]

No matter how many times James is yanked out of context to teach something it does not teach it will never change the context (SHOW ME YOUR FAITH) and or the simple truth that a MAN is justified before GOD by faith void of works<---ROMANS, GALATIANS.....EVER!

 

[Grace777x70]

An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

His faith was completed or perfected as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested.

There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness.

Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.

 

[dcontroversal]

An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

His faith was completed or perfected as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested. There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness.

Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.

MAY I embellish what you said here concerning Abraham....the faith that justified Abraham goes farther back than 15 years before he offered Isaac.....In Hebrews it states that his faith that justified was found in the following....

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Abraham was 75 when called out of UR and he was 99 when Isaac was born and Josephus gives the age of 25 when Isaac was offered....He was already weaned, news of Sarah's death, her age, he carried the wood etc. all point to Isaac being at least a teen....

Simple math leads to the conclusion it was at least 30-35 years and possibly up to 48-50 years before he offered up Isaac....

I also want to add....this declared faith that saved and justified was also well before Abraham was circumcised as well....

 

[John146]

[SUP]JAMES 2v18-24

18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[SUP][d][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][e][/SUP] works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][g][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

If you don't understand the above, then your theology needs a rethink.

I'm glad I'm not justified by my faith in the sight of God or man. Paul declares that the believer is justified by the faith of Christ. I'll take Christ's faith over my faith any day.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Grace777x70]

MAY I embellish what you said here concerning Abraham....the faith that justified Abraham goes farther back than 15 years before he offered Isaac.....In Hebrews it states that his faith that justified was found in the following....

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Abraham was 75 when called out of UR and he was 99 when Isaac was born and Josephus gives the age of 25 when Isaac was offered....He was already weaned, news of Sarah's death, her age, he carried the wood etc. all point to Isaac being at least a teen....

Simple math leads to the conclusion it was at least 30-35 years and possibly up to 48-50 years before he offered up Isaac....

I also want to add....this declared faith that saved and justified was also well before Abraham was circumcised as well....

Yes.....I can see that if one goes back to when God first talked to Abraham in general. Great point.

It makes this whole righteousness by faith or works thing more clear.

We believe God about what He said about Christ and it is counted or reckoned as righteousness ( an accounting term which means - if the ledger says you have $100 bucks in the bank - you have a $100 bucks in the bank - it's a reality ).

No amount of work makes one righteous before God.

 

[John146]

Yes.....I can see that if one goes back to when God first talked to Abraham in general. Great point.

It makes this whole righteousness by faith or works thing more clear.

We believe God about what He said about Christ and it is counted or reckoned as righteousness ( an accounting term which means - if the ledger says you have $100 bucks in the bank - you have a $100 bucks in the bank - it's a reality ).

No amount of work makes one righteous before God.

Abraham was a Gentile when he was justified for believing God's word. Then in chapter 17 Abraham was under the covenant of circumcision as a Jew. Abraham the Jew was justified by works to fulfill his initial belief in God's word.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes.....I can see that if one goes back to when God first talked to Abraham in general. Great point.

It makes this whole righteousness by faith or works thing more clear.

We believe God about what He said about Christ and it is counted or reckoned as righteousness ( an accounting term which means - if the ledger says you have $100 bucks in the bank - you have a $100 bucks in the bank - it's a reality ).

No amount of work makes one righteous before God.

AMEN and I agree.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Abraham was a Gentile when he was justified for believing God's word. Then in chapter 17 Abraham was under the covenant of circumcision as a Jew. Abraham the Jew was justified by works to fulfill his initial belief in God's word.

YEAHHHH...NOT.....Paul covers this....circumcision had nothing to do with Abraham being justified before God....circumcision in the O.T. is what immersion is to the N.T.....nothing more than an identifier and an act of obedience.....the result of the faith that one ALREADY possesses......

 

[MavundaB]

Well I do not understand the controversy in those quotes. Abram works find him favour in the eyes of the Lord. And him having faith on the promise God made him qualified him to be a friend of God. As I have said before, to be declared righteous one must have faith and do good in the eyes of the Lord. So let's stop hiding behind the bushes..faith goes hand in hand with your works.

 

[BillG]

I think we actually need to look at the whole passage here so we need to look at the lead into v18

James 2:14-17
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14:What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

15:If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,

16: and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

17: Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James is obviously addressing beleivers here (well I think he is) "my brethren".
The recipients have either exercised genuine faith or maybe they have not.

The issue here is faith without works verses faith accompanied with works.

Genuine faith will naturally produce goods works, faith and works complement each other.
The cause of works is belief, not the other way around.

Look at the works James talks about. These works are works of the law of love.

You only have to look a v15-16 to see this.

I am not sure what others consider works but to me the works we are called to us that of love, love for others, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and so on.

Its not "don't drink don't smoke what do we do, its not trying our best not to fall foul of the sins of flesh as such.

Let me clarify that comment, I am not saying it's ok to walk in the sins of the flesh what I am trying to say that to focus on sin management is not a work I think applies here, if we focus on sin management then we miss the point of the works mentioned in these verses.

So please don't think I am saying it's ok to lie, steal, commit adultery and so on. We should seek for these things that plague us and ask him to help us in such areas.


James is implying in this verse that faith in Christ will demonstrate itself in love for others (see Jesus’ command to His disciples in John 13:34, 35).


With regards to 2:17 Some interpreters conclude that James is speaking about genuine faith which has become dead. Others maintain that this verse is referring to a faith that was never alive.

James clearly teaches justification by faith, for he quotes

Genesis 15:6


And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.



This connects the crediting of righteousness, that is, salvation, to Abraham’s belief.

Paul talks about this in Romans 4: 1-12


The justification by works of which James is speaking is a different type of justification.

This type of justification is before other people. In other words, James is using the word justified to mean “proved.” We prove to others our genuine faith in Christ through our works. But the justification that comes through faith is before God, and we do not “prove” ourselves to Him; instead, God declares us righteous through our association with Christ, the One who died for our sins (Rom. 3:28).


Faith and works are not enemies. True faith and righteous works go hand in hand. They are two parts of God’s work in us. Faith brings a person to salvation, and works bring that person to faithfulness. Faith is the cause, works are the effect. James believed it, and so did Paul.

 

[MavundaB]

To go further if one declares he is a Christian and commits a crime such as rape,etc. Would you still consider that person righteous?

 

[Chris1975]

[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[Chris1975]

To go further if one declares he is a Christian and commits a crime such as rape,etc. Would you still consider that person righteous?

Depends on whether he repents of this. Should he be a serial rapist, yet says he is a Christian (and goes along with the heresy here that he can never lose his salvation so he is free to continue raping), then I believe he is going to spend eternity in a very warm place.

 

[jaybird88]

the pharisees had no works which lead them to a dead fallen state. Jesus was critical on this. you have to have works.