Eternal and Forever are Mistranslations

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Feb 7, 2015
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#41
I don't think it's logically tenable,
that every time one person disagrees with another person on doctrine,
you can pick out one party of the disagreement,
and just imply he's a pharisee.... just for disagreeing.


You were disagreeing with me just now... so... by virtue of thinking you're right....
I guess that makes you a pharisee?


This doesn't hold up to logic.

And it's silly.

And it's tiring.



And in your analogies, the people you agree with are always represented by Jesus,
and the people you disagree with are always represented by the evil pharisees.

Really, this is just silly and tiring.
Well, you are right. It certainly was some of the Pharisees who said those things about Jesus. I have to say you were exactly right.

Should I apologize for pointing it out?
 
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Apr 23, 2017
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#42
Ok then. What is the significance of the coming Jesus Christ? We had all that before Jesus came .
Bill
To free from sin, not to permit you to disobey the Law. For as opposed to the blood of animals, which were never able to stop a man from sinning, the blood of Jesus Christ, through sanctification of the holy spirit that comes by belief in him, causes a man to be "free of sin", and to obey the Law that he himself was not able to. I have a study on this here Repentance and Sin No More, Perfection and Born of the Spirit | Wisdom of God .
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#43
Well, you are right. It certainly was some of the Pharisees who said those things about Jesus. I have to say you were exactly right.

Should I apologize for pointing it out?


1. My exact words regarding the OP were that his views were "heterodox" and "unique" - a very polite way to describe such strong differences.

I think I described our differences in extremely polite terms.



2. Therefore, labeling me with a disparaging name, for merely describing differences in very polite terms... mmmm... yes, that might qualify for an apology.

Thank you for asking.


3. HOW EXACTLY you equated my actions with those of the pharisees was never even explained by you... you just made the accusation, with no explanation, as if "uttering" something naughty about me would just magically make it true.

This is illogical at best.


4. I pointed out that logically, all that actually happened was that 2 people had differences about doctrine... and differences don't automatically turn either party into an evil pharisee... that's illogical.

If disagreeing, or thinking your view is right, is enough to make a person a Pharisee... then since you often disagree with me... your own logic would qualify YOU as a pharisee.



Willie,
although your own logic seems to qualify you as a pharisee,
I'm not going to label you with such derogatory terms.

Have a great weekend.




 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#44
If there will be "no end" to the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and that those who will receive aeonial life will "never die", then "aeons of aeons" can certainly be implied to mean an endless continuum of aeons and aeons. But because of this implication, you cannot force "eternal" and "forever" unto this verse, because that is not exactly what was conveyed and written in these passages. There is no word for "eternal" and "forever" in the Greek and in the Hebrew.
I do not understand your logic.

1. If there is no word for "eternal" in the Greek, thats exactly why they needed to use "aionios" or "aiónas ton aiónón" (i.e. "ageous" or "for ages of ages") to express it.

2. I am not sure what else it should mean. Yes, in some context, "aionios" can mean for the limited amount of time, "for an age".
But what should "ages of ages" mean, if not eternal?
 
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Apr 23, 2017
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#45
I do not understand your logic.

1. If there is no word for "eternal" in the Greek, thats exactly why they needed to use "aionios" or "aiónas ton aiónón" (i.e. "ageous" or "for ages of ages") to express it.

2. I am not sure what else it should mean. Yes, in some context, "aionios" can mean for the limited amount of time, "for an age".
But what should "ages of ages" mean, if not eternal?
It means exactly what i said, you cannot translate "aionas ton aionon" as "eternal", because even though it may imply as endless continuity of aeons of aeons in THIS context, it does not imply endless continuity in the context of, for example, the aeonial fire (which ends with this heaven and earth), nor aeonial hills (which ends with this heaven and earth, if not earlier), nor even the aeonial old covenant (which also ends with this heaven and earth, when even the Law will also pass away). Once you mistranslate the word in one passage, you corrupt the meaning in other passages. Aeonial is Not Eternal, Aeons, and the Mistranslation of Forever and Ever | Wisdom of God
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#46
It means exactly what i said, you cannot translate "aionas ton aionon" as "eternal", because even though it may imply as endless continuity of aeons of aeons in THIS context, it does not imply endless continuity in the context of, for example, the aeonial fire (which ends with this heaven and earth), nor aeonial hills (which ends with this heaven and earth, if not earlier), nor even the aeonial old covenant (which also ends with this heaven and earth, when even the Law will also pass away). Once you mistranslate the word in one passage, you corrupt the meaning in other passages. Aeonial is Not Eternal, Aeons, and the Mistranslation of Forever and Ever | Wisdom of God
So I will repeat my question - how should "they will be tormented day and night for "aiónas ton aiónón" translated correctly, if not "for ever and ever", according to you?

Just this verse, nothing else now.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#47
Therefore the "eternal fire" does not burn eternally, it burns aeonially, meaning it burns a long time. For a thousand years, for the duration of the millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ, which is itself one aeon, hence "aeonial fire". Once all the wicked are destroyed by that fire, that fire will cease to exist along with this heaven and earth. I have a study on this, and other conclusions here Aeonial is Not Eternal, Aeons, and the Mistranslation of Forever and Ever | Wisdom of God .

So "eternal life" is only life that merely lasts a long time and then ceases??
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#48
So I will repeat my question - how should "they will be tormented day and night for "aiónas ton aiónón" translated correctly, if not "for ever and ever", according to you?

Just this verse, nothing else now.
This is precisely one passage where "forever and ever" would corrupt the temporal meaning of the text. The text should be rendered as,

"they will be tormented day and night until the aeons of the aeons"

The word Greek word "eis" means until, and you can see the interlinear here Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. and also the word definition here Strong's Greek: 1519. εἰς (eis) -- to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result) . As such, the "aeons of the aeons" commences in the the aeon of the new heaven and new earth. So the torment of the devil and all fallen angels, as each are judged and thrown into the fire, will continue to happen UNTIL the aeons of the aeons until all are finally destroyed by the fire.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#49
So "eternal life" is only life that merely lasts a long time and then ceases??
No, because whoever receives aeonial life in the next aeon will never die. So in that context, aeonial life also means a life where death will never occur, since death will cease to exist.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#50
No, because whoever receives aeonial life in the next aeon will never die. So in that context, aeonial life also means a life where death will never occur, since death will cease to exist.
Oh, okay. :rolleyes:
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#51
It means I understand the Law has not been abolished, and that every command that is not shadow command, such as circumcision, festivals, sabbaths, new moons, must still be obeyed.

YEAH...ok...The LAW is for the LAWLESS......good for you....I will take the freedom in Christ over bondage any day....
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#52
But not always does aeonial life mean life that never experiences death. For example, Jesus Christ already had aeonial life before he came in the flesh, since he existed in the beginning. Yet he eventually experienced death. Even Satan, currently has aeonial life, but at some point, he will die and be destroyed. So you see, aeonial life does not always mean endless life, the limits of the aeonial life granted to one person or group must be studied in the context of other scriptures. As such, the aeonial life granted specifically to the elect is a type that never experiences death, since death will eventually be done away with.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#53
YEAH...ok...The LAW is for the LAWLESS......good for you....I will take the freedom in Christ over bondage any day....
Do you even know what lawless means? It is a compound word, LAW-LESS, meaning without law. So actually, the law is for people like you, who live without law.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#54
1. My exact words regarding the OP were that his views were "heterodox" and "unique" - a very polite way to describe such strong differences.

I think I described our differences in extremely polite terms.



2. Therefore, labeling me with a disparaging name, for merely describing differences in very polite terms... mmmm... yes, that might qualify for an apology.

Thank you for asking.


3. HOW EXACTLY you equated my actions with those of the pharisees was never even explained by you... you just made the accusation, with no explanation, as if "uttering" something naughty about me would just magically make it true.

This is illogical at best.


4. I pointed out that logically, all that actually happened was that 2 people had differences about doctrine... and differences don't automatically turn either party into an evil pharisee... that's illogical.

If disagreeing, or thinking your view is right, is enough to make a person a Pharisee... then since you often disagree with me... your own logic would qualify YOU as a pharisee.



Willie,
although your own logic seems to qualify you as a pharisee,
I'm not going to label you with such derogatory terms.

Have a great weekend.
You mean they weren't saying the same things about Jesus... that his ideas were going against their orthodoxy? I could have sworn those were almost the exact words many people back in those days used about Him.
 
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Dec 12, 2013
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#55
Do you even know what lawless means? It is a compound word, LAW-LESS, meaning without law. So actually, the law is for people like you, who live without law.
More proof you have no idea what your talking about....

Christ is the end of the LAW unto all who believe...wake up....your version will take you some place you don't want to go.....and blending faith and the works of the law=a false gospel, no power to save and double cursed....
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#56
More proof you have no idea what your talking about....

Christ is the end of the LAW unto all who believe...wake up....your version will take you some place you don't want to go.....and blending faith and the works of the law=a false gospel, no power to save and double cursed....
Jesus Christ, whom you speak of, said, "I did not come to abolish the Law..." and "until heaven and earth passes away, not one jot or tittle of the Law will fall...." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens...". It seems that the one having "no idea what your talking about" is you.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#57
Even Satan, currently has aeonial life, but at some point, he will die and be destroyed.


No, Satan will not die and be destroyed! This is what you are not understanding. There is nothing in scripture that even suggests that either Satan and his angels will die and become non-existent.

"
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

"
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Once again, regarding the verse above, since eternal (aion) means unending life for the righteous, then eternal (aion) punishment must also be unending. Whatever you make one, the other has to mean the same. If you say that eternal punishment is temporary, then eternal life must also be temporary, because the same word is being used.

There is absolutely no scripture that infers temporary punishment. Neither the words Apollumi, Apolleia and Olethros are defined as meaning annihilation or extinction, but complete loss of well being, ruination.
 
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Apr 23, 2017
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#58


No, Satan will not die and be destroyed! This is what you are not understanding. There is nothing in scripture that even suggests that either Satan and his angels will die and become non-existent.

"
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

"
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Once again, regarding the verse above, since eternal (aion) means unending life for the righteous, then eternal (aion) punishment must also be unending. Whatever you make one, the other has to mean the same. If you say that eternal punishment is temporary, then eternal life must also be temporary, because the same word is being used.

There is absolutely no scripture that infers temporary punishment. Neither the words Apollumi, Apolleia and Olethros are defined as meaning annihilation or extinction, but complete loss of well being, ruination.
Yes there is, read,

I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.” (Psalm 82:6-7 [ESV])


…“‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God… Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.’” (Ezekiel 28:12-19 [NIV])
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#59
Jesus Christ, whom you speak of, said, "I did not come to abolish the Law..." and "until heaven and earth passes away, not one jot or tittle of the Law will fall...." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens...". It seems that the one having "no idea what your talking about" is you.

try again.....the law will be inforce for those who have not BIBLICALLY accepted CHRIST until the final judgment when those who have rejected the one true way will be judged by the 5 books of the law and the book of life....WAKE UP...Christ is the END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES....

DO TELL...what do the words END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS MEAN
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#60
try again.....the law will be inforce for those who have not BIBLICALLY accepted CHRIST until the final judgment when those who have rejected the one true way will be judged by the 5 books of the law and the book of life....WAKE UP...Christ is the END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES....

DO TELL...what do the words END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS MEAN
Tell me, will someone who believes not be judged by by the law if he murders or if he commits adultery? Clearly, even if he believes, he is still committing sins contrary to the Law, for have you not read, "murderes, adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God"? These are commands found in the Law. You cannot separate belief from Law, because belief should cause you to obey Law, not to disobey it, otherwise your belief is dead.