If You Don't Want Your Feelings Hurt, Don't Read This
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J
cant argue that
but hes still a brother
and a good spiritual leader doesnt use the roll like
"im a pastor of a church so blah blah blah" and dictate that his position means his understanding is more true than someone elses given WE dont know who God has appointed without proper testing
i put no stock into the title
but there have been men
ive listened to (and yes learned from)
that to the best of my ability(given to me) seem much more suited to lead than i am in my current state
and i do respect these mens views on scripture
but
not because they are pastors
because when they speak they speak truth and let Gods word have authority
and when i disagree with them and God isnt telling me with scripture they are right
i hold my views hold to a literal interpretation of the Word
but hes still a brother
and a good spiritual leader doesnt use the roll like
"im a pastor of a church so blah blah blah" and dictate that his position means his understanding is more true than someone elses given WE dont know who God has appointed without proper testing
i put no stock into the title
but there have been men
ive listened to (and yes learned from)
that to the best of my ability(given to me) seem much more suited to lead than i am in my current state
and i do respect these mens views on scripture
but
not because they are pastors
because when they speak they speak truth and let Gods word have authority
and when i disagree with them and God isnt telling me with scripture they are right
i hold my views hold to a literal interpretation of the Word
Let's not blame God for the problems in the church. God is in control and God still honors His word. The word of God is no less able to accomplish that to which God has appointed it today than it was when Jesus walked on the earth.
Men are not willing to wait on the Lord. Impatience and running ahead of God is quite common especially today in the age of instant gratification. Even the apostles acted prematurely in selecting a man to replace Judas so we are not without precedence.
I respect what many women are endeavoring to accomplish in the church but as difficult as it may be we must wait upon the Lord to provide His man in His time to minister His word to us. Redeem the time and be faithful in witnessing to the lost but do not endeavor to compromise the word of God for the sake of expediency.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Men are not willing to wait on the Lord. Impatience and running ahead of God is quite common especially today in the age of instant gratification. Even the apostles acted prematurely in selecting a man to replace Judas so we are not without precedence.
I respect what many women are endeavoring to accomplish in the church but as difficult as it may be we must wait upon the Lord to provide His man in His time to minister His word to us. Redeem the time and be faithful in witnessing to the lost but do not endeavor to compromise the word of God for the sake of expediency.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
Quote "Let's not blame God for the problems in the church. "
I didnt blame God. Please re-read what I said.
Quote "Men are not willing to wait on the Lord. Impatience and running ahead of God is quite common especially today in the age of instant gratification. Even the apostles acted prematurely in selecting a man to replace Judas so we are not without precedence."
Brother that is one poor excuse for what is happening in the church. Lets be real and not make excuses.
Quote "as difficult as it may be we must wait upon the Lord to provide His man in His time to minister His word to us."
No,its not a matter of waiting on the Lord,now you are blaming God.Its time to take responsibility men. This is not a time to "wait". This is a time to be in the trenches sharing the Gospel,and as one who was there I found very few men or women who were in there with us,but men in particular.
Think on this men:
.The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories
. On any given Sunday there are 13 million more adult women than men in America’s churches.
.This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands.
.Midweek activities often draw 70 to 80 percent female participants
.The majority of church employees are women (except for ordained clergy, who are overwhelmingly male).
.Over 70 percent of the boys who are being raised in church will abandon it during their teens and twenties. Many of these boys will never return.
.More than 90 percent of American men believe in God, and five out of six call themselves Christians. But only one out of six attend church on a given Sunday. The average man accepts the reality of Jesus Christ, but fails to see any value in going to church.
.Churches overseas report gender gaps of up to 9 women for every adult man in attendance.
.Fewer than 10% of U.S. churches are able to establish or maintain a vibrant men’s ministry.
http://churchformen.com/men-and-church/where-are-the-men/
What say you men!!? Women are standing in the gap,where are you!? We want to limit who preaches the Gospel,we want to wait for a man to do it,we need God to send the right man?! Can we say "excuses"!! Can we say "cop out"?! Come on men,some direct talk here. Men are the only ones that can pastor but all other employees are female?! We're talking out of two sides of our mouths here guys! What have you to say??!!
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D
I'm fed up with the cockiness of "I'm right and your wrong" over such a small issue in the church.
Then again, what am I going to do about it? Waste my time with so much of that cockiness? Why bother? Would it change YOU?
Nah! Just made you puff up a little prouder, because you think you got to me. Funny thing, you're so full of yourself, you probably don't even know my position on the subject, and yet you're still proud that you think you got my goat.
I don't keep my goat in a china shop. Elephants like to rampage through china shops. lol
Then again, what am I going to do about it? Waste my time with so much of that cockiness? Why bother? Would it change YOU?
Nah! Just made you puff up a little prouder, because you think you got to me. Funny thing, you're so full of yourself, you probably don't even know my position on the subject, and yet you're still proud that you think you got my goat.
I don't keep my goat in a china shop. Elephants like to rampage through china shops. lol
We had the women vs men argument in the 6th grade and it was very dumb then and it still is. I will say one thing for p_reh, at least he had the nerve to post all the scriptures about women not having authority over men in the church. It is obvious that he is very passionately against what God has given us in this area. I likewise am very passionately against the concept of hell, however I know that there is a time to shut up, just believe God, and get on with it, otherwise we will end up fighting against God. We need to keep in mind that we are living in a culture that has moved away from the pattern given by God so much so that men can marry men and women can marry women. What I am saying is, the role of men and women that is given us in the bible has long since been altered in so many ways so that it is no wonder that some men and women are outraged by the actual pattern of God in the bible that places men in authority. The problem is not the word of God, the problem is the way our culture has falling away from God.
A
I wonder if the Pharisees used that argument on Jesus?
The point is that the early church is NOT what we have today.
It was home churches persecuted and hidden in homes.
They didn't have mega churches. They didn't have meeting houses and bills to pay back when Paul wrote his letters.
The leadership of the church was those who knew the gospel and what Jesus taught and repeated it by word of mouth. Sometimes they would get a letter from and apostle and memorize what it said.
It easy to show how corrupt men twist scripture to gain power that is meant to be held by God alone.
Church leadership is meant to be held by a council of elders and deacons, not by one man (or woman) alone.
We can pull the historical text that show that women were apostles, deaconness, prophetess, teachers and pastors but people will deny it.
It has been buried because men like control and they don't like sharing it with other men much less women.
The point is that the early church is NOT what we have today.
It was home churches persecuted and hidden in homes.
They didn't have mega churches. They didn't have meeting houses and bills to pay back when Paul wrote his letters.
The leadership of the church was those who knew the gospel and what Jesus taught and repeated it by word of mouth. Sometimes they would get a letter from and apostle and memorize what it said.
It easy to show how corrupt men twist scripture to gain power that is meant to be held by God alone.
Church leadership is meant to be held by a council of elders and deacons, not by one man (or woman) alone.
We can pull the historical text that show that women were apostles, deaconness, prophetess, teachers and pastors but people will deny it.
It has been buried because men like control and they don't like sharing it with other men much less women.
A
https://archive.org/stream/stdionysiusofale00dion/stdionysiusofale00dion_djvu.txt
Why do the oppressed people's history never taught in the schools?
Found this article and I can find more or you can research the references,
The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church | Christian History
A number of women served as leaders of the house churches that sprang up in the cities of the Roman Empire—the list includes Priscilla, Chloe, Lydia, Apphia, Nympha, the mother of John Mark, and possibly the “elect lady” of John’s second epistle.
In the 2nd century, Clement of Alexandria wrote that the apostles were accompanied on their missionary journeys by women who were not marriage partners, but colleagues, “that they might be their fellow-ministers in dealing with housewives. It was through them that the Lord’s teaching penetrated also the women’s quarters without any scandal being aroused. We also know the directions about women deacons which are given by the noble Paul in his letter to Timothy.”
Until the Middle Ages, the identity of Junia as a female apostle was unquestioned. Later translators attempted to change the gender by changing the name to the masculine Junias. But such a name is unknown in antiquity; and there is absolutely no literary, epigraphical or papyrological evidence for it.
Paul also mentions Phoebe in Romans 16, “a deacon of the church at Cenchreae.” He calls her a prostatis or overseer. This term in its masculine form, prostates, was used later by the Apostolic Fathers to designate the one presiding over the Eucharist. And Paul uses the same verb, the passive of ginomai (to be or become), as he uses in Colossians 1:23: “I was made a minister.”
In the passive, the verb sometimes indicated ordination or appointment to an office. Thus one might legitimately translate Paul’s statement about Phoebe: “For she has been appointed, actually by my own action, an officer presiding over many.” The church in Rome is asked to welcome her and assist her in the church’s business.
About 112 A.D., the Roman governor Pliny the Younger detailed his efforts to cope with the nascent church in Bithynia. He had found it necessary to interrogate the leaders, two slave women called ministrae, or deacons. These women apparently followed in the tradition of Phoebe.
As Clement of Alexandria made mention of Paul’s reference to deaconesses in 1 Timothy 3:11, so Origen commented on Phoebe, the deacon that Paul mentions in Romans 16:1–2:
“This text teaches with the authority of the Apostle that even women are instituted deacons in the Church. This is the function which was exercised in the church of Cenchreae by Phoebe, who was the object of high praise and recommendation by Paul… And thus this text teaches at the same time two things: that there are, as we have already said, women deacons in the Church, and that women, who by their good works deserve to be praised by the Apostle, ought to be accepted in the diaconate.”
Dionysius of Alexandria, who died in 264 A.D., described a martyr as “the most holy eldress Mercuria” and another as “a most remarkable virgin eldress Apollonia.”
The walls of the Roman catacombs bear pictures showing women in authoritative stances, with their hands raised in the posture of a bishop.
The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church | Christian History
****
Still looking up the references but you can't throw the "why doesn't history record women leaders in the early church" argument around without first checking facts.
Why do the oppressed people's history never taught in the schools?
Found this article and I can find more or you can research the references,
The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church | Christian History
A number of women served as leaders of the house churches that sprang up in the cities of the Roman Empire—the list includes Priscilla, Chloe, Lydia, Apphia, Nympha, the mother of John Mark, and possibly the “elect lady” of John’s second epistle.
In the 2nd century, Clement of Alexandria wrote that the apostles were accompanied on their missionary journeys by women who were not marriage partners, but colleagues, “that they might be their fellow-ministers in dealing with housewives. It was through them that the Lord’s teaching penetrated also the women’s quarters without any scandal being aroused. We also know the directions about women deacons which are given by the noble Paul in his letter to Timothy.”
Until the Middle Ages, the identity of Junia as a female apostle was unquestioned. Later translators attempted to change the gender by changing the name to the masculine Junias. But such a name is unknown in antiquity; and there is absolutely no literary, epigraphical or papyrological evidence for it.
Paul also mentions Phoebe in Romans 16, “a deacon of the church at Cenchreae.” He calls her a prostatis or overseer. This term in its masculine form, prostates, was used later by the Apostolic Fathers to designate the one presiding over the Eucharist. And Paul uses the same verb, the passive of ginomai (to be or become), as he uses in Colossians 1:23: “I was made a minister.”
In the passive, the verb sometimes indicated ordination or appointment to an office. Thus one might legitimately translate Paul’s statement about Phoebe: “For she has been appointed, actually by my own action, an officer presiding over many.” The church in Rome is asked to welcome her and assist her in the church’s business.
About 112 A.D., the Roman governor Pliny the Younger detailed his efforts to cope with the nascent church in Bithynia. He had found it necessary to interrogate the leaders, two slave women called ministrae, or deacons. These women apparently followed in the tradition of Phoebe.
As Clement of Alexandria made mention of Paul’s reference to deaconesses in 1 Timothy 3:11, so Origen commented on Phoebe, the deacon that Paul mentions in Romans 16:1–2:
“This text teaches with the authority of the Apostle that even women are instituted deacons in the Church. This is the function which was exercised in the church of Cenchreae by Phoebe, who was the object of high praise and recommendation by Paul… And thus this text teaches at the same time two things: that there are, as we have already said, women deacons in the Church, and that women, who by their good works deserve to be praised by the Apostle, ought to be accepted in the diaconate.”
Dionysius of Alexandria, who died in 264 A.D., described a martyr as “the most holy eldress Mercuria” and another as “a most remarkable virgin eldress Apollonia.”
The walls of the Roman catacombs bear pictures showing women in authoritative stances, with their hands raised in the posture of a bishop.
The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church | Christian History
****
Still looking up the references but you can't throw the "why doesn't history record women leaders in the early church" argument around without first checking facts.
A
Origen, Commentary on Romans 10:17; Migne, Patrologia Graeca,vol.14,col.1278 A-C. The text has been preserved in Latin, but Gryson (Ministry, pp.31,134) shows that the phrase ‘woman deacons must have been in Greek: ‘γυναικες διακονους’
http://www.womenpriests.org/deacontexts/origen.asp
http://www.womenpriests.org/deacontexts/origen.asp
None of these symptoms are new. None of these problems will be fixed by men or women.
The church is in this problem because men have failed to believe the word of God and have resorted to their own devices to correct the problem.
I understand the anxiety and ardent desire to fix the problems but only God can fix them. If judgment begins in the house of God perhaps we need to consider that is just what we are evidencing in the church today.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Until we return to trusting the Lord and cease from our own ideas we will not be experiencing the blessing God has for us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The church is in this problem because men have failed to believe the word of God and have resorted to their own devices to correct the problem.
I understand the anxiety and ardent desire to fix the problems but only God can fix them. If judgment begins in the house of God perhaps we need to consider that is just what we are evidencing in the church today.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Until we return to trusting the Lord and cease from our own ideas we will not be experiencing the blessing God has for us.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A
"Ver. 11. Even so must the women be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Some have thought that this is said of women generally, but it is not so, for why should he introduce anything about women to interfere with his subject? He is speaking of those who hold the rank of Deaconesses"
From https://sites.google.com/site/aquin...om-on-1-timothy/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3
St. John, named Chrysostom (golden-mouthed) on account of his eloquence, came into the world of Christian parents, about the year 344, in the city of Antioch.
St. John Chrysostom - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online
Some have thought that this is said of women generally, but it is not so, for why should he introduce anything about women to interfere with his subject? He is speaking of those who hold the rank of Deaconesses"
From https://sites.google.com/site/aquin...om-on-1-timothy/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3
St. John, named Chrysostom (golden-mouthed) on account of his eloquence, came into the world of Christian parents, about the year 344, in the city of Antioch.
St. John Chrysostom - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online
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