All this talk about females being pastors, made me realize, that the Scripture I was posting has nothing to do with pastors, it had to do with overseers, elders and deacons and what to look for when appointing them. Where in Scripture does it say that a pastor is to be the sole leader of a Church, as in the final say, the buck stops here, everything needs to be okayed by them, as in lead, head, senior pastor?
females, yes or no, what about pastors leading a Church yes or no, where?
- Thread starter Johnny_B
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Hello, no! Ephesians 4:11-16 “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”
This is the only place where it mentions the word pastor and says nothing about them leading the Church. They are part of the gifts given to the Church for the equipping of the saints, not the leader of the Church as in just the one, pastor with final say. The Bible talks about the elders who are over you/Church, not the pastor. The all are to equip the saints, which in turn would lead to all leading the Church. The idea of a head pastor is RCC doctrine as in the father/pastor. Not only that the epistles to Timothy and Titus that we mark as the pastoral epistles, never mention pastor in them and the are for those that are to lead the Church. Paul says elders, James says elders and Peter says elders. There is not one epistle that address' the leadership of the Church that says pastor.
This is the only place where it mentions the word pastor and says nothing about them leading the Church. They are part of the gifts given to the Church for the equipping of the saints, not the leader of the Church as in just the one, pastor with final say. The Bible talks about the elders who are over you/Church, not the pastor. The all are to equip the saints, which in turn would lead to all leading the Church. The idea of a head pastor is RCC doctrine as in the father/pastor. Not only that the epistles to Timothy and Titus that we mark as the pastoral epistles, never mention pastor in them and the are for those that are to lead the Church. Paul says elders, James says elders and Peter says elders. There is not one epistle that address' the leadership of the Church that says pastor.
Have fun explaining to the Lord why He lied in 1 Timothy 2:12,13
Qualifications for Ministry
1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Bishop - Strongs G1985
a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): KJV -- bishop, overseer.
Deacons - Strongs G1249
probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon): KJV -- deacon, minister, servant.
Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve
Paul bases his viewpoint on creation. In v. 13 he says, "For Adam was first created, then Eve." In the least, this argument shows that Paul is not restricting his treatment to the church; it's a matter that is grounded in the constitutional differences between men and women, or at least in the order of authority that God had ordained. In Gen 2-3, we see an interesting phenomenon relevant to 1 Tim 2. God teaches man, man teaches woman, the devil is out of the picture. That's Gen 2. But in Gen 3, we see the devil teaching woman, woman teaching man, and God is out of the picture. And this is Paul's argument: there is a divinely ordained order to things that, if disturbed, could bring ruin.
1 Timothy 2:12 Almost every commentator says that women should not pastor or teach over men. The argument the Apostle Paul gives for his statement "I do not permit a women to teach or to exercise authority over a man" is found in the following 2 verses. His argument is actually not from culture as some claim but from creation. The validity of his argument and the weight of this statement plants its roots in the creation order. Which means that the statement he makes regarding women not teaching over men (essentially pastoring) stands for all-time and to all cultures everywhere, because he doesnt appeal to culture for his reasons but the creation ORDER.
Qualifications for Ministry
1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Bishop - Strongs G1985
a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): KJV -- bishop, overseer.
Deacons - Strongs G1249
probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon): KJV -- deacon, minister, servant.
Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve
Paul bases his viewpoint on creation. In v. 13 he says, "For Adam was first created, then Eve." In the least, this argument shows that Paul is not restricting his treatment to the church; it's a matter that is grounded in the constitutional differences between men and women, or at least in the order of authority that God had ordained. In Gen 2-3, we see an interesting phenomenon relevant to 1 Tim 2. God teaches man, man teaches woman, the devil is out of the picture. That's Gen 2. But in Gen 3, we see the devil teaching woman, woman teaching man, and God is out of the picture. And this is Paul's argument: there is a divinely ordained order to things that, if disturbed, could bring ruin.
1 Timothy 2:12 Almost every commentator says that women should not pastor or teach over men. The argument the Apostle Paul gives for his statement "I do not permit a women to teach or to exercise authority over a man" is found in the following 2 verses. His argument is actually not from culture as some claim but from creation. The validity of his argument and the weight of this statement plants its roots in the creation order. Which means that the statement he makes regarding women not teaching over men (essentially pastoring) stands for all-time and to all cultures everywhere, because he doesnt appeal to culture for his reasons but the creation ORDER.
Have fun explaining to the Lord why He lied in 1 Timothy 2:12,13
A overseer or elder is a pastor or shepherd, leader
And WHY did not Jesus have a woman as one of His Apostles?
And WHY did God not have any women priests of prophets in the old testament?
Simply because it's not His way, not His order, not the way He designed authority to work
Do you believe it's OK for a wife to be in the role of husband and the man be in the role of the woman... where the woman is the leader of the household?
Of course not... and this is why women are not to be ordained as leaders in the church.
A overseer or elder is a pastor or shepherd, leader
And WHY did not Jesus have a woman as one of His Apostles?
And WHY did God not have any women priests of prophets in the old testament?
Simply because it's not His way, not His order, not the way He designed authority to work
Do you believe it's OK for a wife to be in the role of husband and the man be in the role of the woman... where the woman is the leader of the household?
Of course not... and this is why women are not to be ordained as leaders in the church.
Are you saying that all saints are men? Of course not.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
"ποιμήν" "a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks" (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors," Ephesians 4:11 . "Pastors" guide as well as feed the flock; cp. Acts 20:28 , which, with ver. 17, indicates that this was the service committed to elders (overseers or bishops); so also in 1 Peter 5:1,2 , "tend the flock ... exercising the oversight," RV; this involves tender care and vigilant superintendence."
"ἐπίσκοπος" "lit., "an overseer" (epi, "over," skopeo, "to look or watch"), whence Eng. "bishop," which has precisely the same meaning, is found in Acts 20:28 ; Philippians 1:1 ; 1 Timothy 3:2 ; Titus 1:7 ; 1 Peter 2:25.
Note: Presbuteros, "an elder," is another term for the same person as bishop or overseer. See Acts 20:17 with verse Acts 20:28 . The term "elder" indicates the mature spiritual experience and understanding of those so described; the term "bishop," or "overseer," indicates the character of the work undertaken. According to the Divine will and appointment, as in the NT, there were to be "bishops" in every local church, Acts 14:23 ; 20:17 ; Philippians 1:1 ; Titus 1:5 ; James 5:14 . Where the singular is used, the passage is describing what a "bishop" should be, 1 Timothy 3:2 ; Titus 1:7 . Christ Himself is spoken of as "the ... Bishop of our souls," 1 Peter 2:25 ."
"πρεσβύτερος" "The Divine arrangement seen throughout the NT was for a plurality of these to be appointed in each church, Acts 14:23 ; 20:17 ; Philippians 1:1 ; 1 Timothy 5:17 ; Titus 1:5 . The duty of "elders" is described by the verb episkopeo. They were appointed according as they had given evidence of fulfilling the Divine qualifications, Titus 1:6-9 ; cp. 1 Timothy 3:1-7 ; 1 Peter 5:2."
"συμπρεσβύτερος" ""a fellow-elder" (sun, "with"), is used in 1 Peter 5:1"
From the Greek words and the Scriptures, we see that there is a plurality of leaders in the local Church, not a single leader, that leads the Church/flock. With the Strong's and Vine's definitions we see that there is no one elder/overseer/pastor/deacon/prophet/evangelist/apostle/teacher as the sole leader of the Church.
Here's what Jesus thinks about a leader that wants to be addressed by what's their position. "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:6-12, Jesus also rebukes this in 20:25-27 and adds to the greatest among you, "Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave" First or lead/head/senior let him be your slave, not servant, slave. I not thinking Jesus is speaking of "become great" and "be first" in a positive since and makes the degree of submission more intense the high you desire to go.
The Pharisees, reminds my of pastors, with reserve sitting, parking, being called pastor or they look at you funny like you are disrespecting them if you don't call them pastor. When pastors starts referring to the flock as "my people", I've seen some calamity come down on the fellowship or their fellowship goes from thousands to hundreds.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
"ποιμήν" "a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks" (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors," Ephesians 4:11 . "Pastors" guide as well as feed the flock; cp. Acts 20:28 , which, with ver. 17, indicates that this was the service committed to elders (overseers or bishops); so also in 1 Peter 5:1,2 , "tend the flock ... exercising the oversight," RV; this involves tender care and vigilant superintendence."
"ἐπίσκοπος" "lit., "an overseer" (epi, "over," skopeo, "to look or watch"), whence Eng. "bishop," which has precisely the same meaning, is found in Acts 20:28 ; Philippians 1:1 ; 1 Timothy 3:2 ; Titus 1:7 ; 1 Peter 2:25.
Note: Presbuteros, "an elder," is another term for the same person as bishop or overseer. See Acts 20:17 with verse Acts 20:28 . The term "elder" indicates the mature spiritual experience and understanding of those so described; the term "bishop," or "overseer," indicates the character of the work undertaken. According to the Divine will and appointment, as in the NT, there were to be "bishops" in every local church, Acts 14:23 ; 20:17 ; Philippians 1:1 ; Titus 1:5 ; James 5:14 . Where the singular is used, the passage is describing what a "bishop" should be, 1 Timothy 3:2 ; Titus 1:7 . Christ Himself is spoken of as "the ... Bishop of our souls," 1 Peter 2:25 ."
"πρεσβύτερος" "The Divine arrangement seen throughout the NT was for a plurality of these to be appointed in each church, Acts 14:23 ; 20:17 ; Philippians 1:1 ; 1 Timothy 5:17 ; Titus 1:5 . The duty of "elders" is described by the verb episkopeo. They were appointed according as they had given evidence of fulfilling the Divine qualifications, Titus 1:6-9 ; cp. 1 Timothy 3:1-7 ; 1 Peter 5:2."
"συμπρεσβύτερος" ""a fellow-elder" (sun, "with"), is used in 1 Peter 5:1"
From the Greek words and the Scriptures, we see that there is a plurality of leaders in the local Church, not a single leader, that leads the Church/flock. With the Strong's and Vine's definitions we see that there is no one elder/overseer/pastor/deacon/prophet/evangelist/apostle/teacher as the sole leader of the Church.
Here's what Jesus thinks about a leader that wants to be addressed by what's their position. "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:6-12, Jesus also rebukes this in 20:25-27 and adds to the greatest among you, "Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave" First or lead/head/senior let him be your slave, not servant, slave. I not thinking Jesus is speaking of "become great" and "be first" in a positive since and makes the degree of submission more intense the high you desire to go.
The Pharisees, reminds my of pastors, with reserve sitting, parking, being called pastor or they look at you funny like you are disrespecting them if you don't call them pastor. When pastors starts referring to the flock as "my people", I've seen some calamity come down on the fellowship or their fellowship goes from thousands to hundreds.
Both of you have shown that you did not ever read what I posted, you seen female in the title and ass-u-med that I was making a thread for women pastors. When this is about where does it say that a pastor in the lead/head/senior leader of the Church. All I see is a plurality of leaders in the Scriptures. When a pastor is one of the gifts to equip the saints and overseers, elders and deacons have to meet qualification to be appointed to lead the Church.
Rockrz you forgot the Judges of Israel and Debra.
I dont think so. It seems to me from the early church writings, that deacons were "only" ministers to poor ones, widows etc, they worked with money.
Some writings seem to indicate that elders were the "most high authority" in the local Church and they could probably put bishop out of the office, some seem to indicate it was a bishop, whose role was to guard the teaching of elders and the work of deacons.
I have never read any early Christian writing that says they are all equal in the hierarchy... do you have any?
Some writings seem to indicate that elders were the "most high authority" in the local Church and they could probably put bishop out of the office, some seem to indicate it was a bishop, whose role was to guard the teaching of elders and the work of deacons.
I have never read any early Christian writing that says they are all equal in the hierarchy... do you have any?
Acts 21:8-10 "On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. 10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea."
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D
Pastor, by very nature< is the person hired to take care of the flock. What's the other choice, have sheep caring for the flock?
BTW, I'm in a denom, so the flocks are connected. Even the oversight has oversight -- fellow pastors. (Which in my denom IS elders.)
I'm a woman, so have no problems submitting to authority... as long as I learn to trust the authority first. I trust how our denom picks pastors, so it's all good.
BTW, I'm in a denom, so the flocks are connected. Even the oversight has oversight -- fellow pastors. (Which in my denom IS elders.)
I'm a woman, so have no problems submitting to authority... as long as I learn to trust the authority first. I trust how our denom picks pastors, so it's all good.
My view of the scriptures leads me to believe that there is not one person that has the role of "The Pastor" in a local assembly. There can be a lead pastor or one who is gifted in teaching in a certain area and a spokesperson for what the others have decided as a group - how large that is depends on the Holy Spirit as it is He that makes them overseers in an assembly.
Once a church has been established by a believer in an area - usually done by someone operating in the function of an apostle ( which just means a sent one to a specific group) - then there is a local governing of that body of believers.
There seems to be a "spokesperson" for the plurality of elders or pastors if you like that term better. Shepherd is the correct term used biblically but our modern day evangelical system has changed many things including elevating one person as "The Pastor".
The pastor, elder and bishop are all speaking of the same person but they are spoken of in different ways or functions.
1 Peter 5:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, I exhort the elders ( greek word for presbyters, elder ) among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] shepherd ( Greek word - feed, shepherd ) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight ( Greek word for bishop, overseer ) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
We see this being done again in Acts 20 when Paul is talking to the "elders" in Ephesus ( not the one Pastor of Ephesus )
Acts 20:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Be on guard for yourselves ( the elders ) and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, ( Greek word for bishop, overseer ) to shepherd ( Greek word "to shepherd, nourish, feed ) the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Once a church has been established by a believer in an area - usually done by someone operating in the function of an apostle ( which just means a sent one to a specific group) - then there is a local governing of that body of believers.
There seems to be a "spokesperson" for the plurality of elders or pastors if you like that term better. Shepherd is the correct term used biblically but our modern day evangelical system has changed many things including elevating one person as "The Pastor".
The pastor, elder and bishop are all speaking of the same person but they are spoken of in different ways or functions.
1 Peter 5:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, I exhort the elders ( greek word for presbyters, elder ) among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] shepherd ( Greek word - feed, shepherd ) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight ( Greek word for bishop, overseer ) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
We see this being done again in Acts 20 when Paul is talking to the "elders" in Ephesus ( not the one Pastor of Ephesus )
Acts 20:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Be on guard for yourselves ( the elders ) and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, ( Greek word for bishop, overseer ) to shepherd ( Greek word "to shepherd, nourish, feed ) the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
I agree except that bishop = elder.
Even though an elder can become also a bishop, they seem to be two separated roles in the first church.
---
Also, bishop does not equal pastor.
"For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd (poiména) and Overseer(episkopon) of your souls." 1Pt 2:25
- from this place it seems these two words are not interchangeable, but are probably very similar
Even though an elder can become also a bishop, they seem to be two separated roles in the first church.
---
Also, bishop does not equal pastor.
"For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd (poiména) and Overseer(episkopon) of your souls." 1Pt 2:25
- from this place it seems these two words are not interchangeable, but are probably very similar
The words are simply showing a function from a position. I think 1 Peter 5 and Acts 20 show the bishop who oversees is in fact an elder who functions as a pastor or shepherd.
This one bishop overseeing a group of different congregations is a man-made religious tradition.
Christ's reference wouldn't apply IMO because He is the Head of the body and it is really Jesus through the Holy Spirit that is governing the church on the earth today. He is "The Shepherd, The Overseer"
But if a denomination had a set up where there was a bishop overseeing a lot of congregations - that wouldn't throw me off. I would just think it's unbiblical and not set up right but that wouldn't stop me from fellowshipping with them.
I also wouldn't speak against them either. That is their business what they do amongst themselves. If they want one person "overseeing" them all and want to call themselves a bishop - that's up to them.
This one bishop overseeing a group of different congregations is a man-made religious tradition.
Christ's reference wouldn't apply IMO because He is the Head of the body and it is really Jesus through the Holy Spirit that is governing the church on the earth today. He is "The Shepherd, The Overseer"
But if a denomination had a set up where there was a bishop overseeing a lot of congregations - that wouldn't throw me off. I would just think it's unbiblical and not set up right but that wouldn't stop me from fellowshipping with them.
I also wouldn't speak against them either. That is their business what they do amongst themselves. If they want one person "overseeing" them all and want to call themselves a bishop - that's up to them.
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A
We had this conversation before and I agree with most of your statement. However, the Bible doesn't have one Head bishop, but elders are another name for Bishop/overseer. So you hierarchy should be Jesus/Rabbi, apostles, prophets, evangelist, elders/bishops, deacons/teachers
However. Folks ignore that.
Key note I believe there is only One Jesus and the apostles listed in the Bible. Not these new folks claiming the title. Some folks even claim to be Jesus returned.
However. Folks ignore that.
Key note I believe there is only One Jesus and the apostles listed in the Bible. Not these new folks claiming the title. Some folks even claim to be Jesus returned.
Oh...so it is in the way the church traditions from other writings other then scripture where this shows up then? I can see that.
It doesn't take long for man-made traditions to come into being within church assemblies. It happened in Jerusalem even while the apostles of Christ were there in their midst.
Here in Acts 21 James is telling Paul of the thousands of believing Jews that were zealous for the law of Moses. It didn't take them long to pervert the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
Acts 21:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
As I said - I have no problem with those denominations that have one person who they call a "Bishop" to govern over them if they want. It's just not biblical but that would never stop me from fellowshipping with them over Christ and His work on the cross for us.
It doesn't take long for man-made traditions to come into being within church assemblies. It happened in Jerusalem even while the apostles of Christ were there in their midst.
Here in Acts 21 James is telling Paul of the thousands of believing Jews that were zealous for the law of Moses. It didn't take them long to pervert the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
Acts 21:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
As I said - I have no problem with those denominations that have one person who they call a "Bishop" to govern over them if they want. It's just not biblical but that would never stop me from fellowshipping with them over Christ and His work on the cross for us.