Calvinism and Tulip theology

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,518
1,045
113
Australia
#1
Calvinism
Calvinism (also called the Reformed tradition', Reformed Christianity, Reformed Protestantism, or the Reformed faith) is a major branch of protestantism that follows the theological tradition and forms of Christian practice of John Calvin and other Reformation-ear theology.
Calvinists broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century. Calvinism differs from Lutherans on the real presence of Christ in the the eucharist, theroies of worship, and the use of God's Law for believers, among other things. Its basic principle is that the Bible is to be interpreted by itself, meaning the parts that are harder to understand are examined in the light of other passages where the Bible is more explicit on the matter. The term Calvinism can be misleading, because the religious tradition which it denotes has always been diverse, with a wide range of influences rather than a single founder. The movement was first called Calvinism by Lutherans who opposed it, and many within the tradition would prefer to use the word Reformed.

Most objections to, and attacks on Calvinism focus on the "five points of Calvinism," also called the doctrines of grace, and remembered by the acronym "TULIP." The five points were more recently popularized in the 1963 booklet The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended, Documented by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. The origins of the five points and the acronym are uncertain.
The "five points of Calvinism," even if they are (or are not) what John Calvin taught are very much preached in churches today.
Are the TULIP doctrines correct?
· Total depravity
· Unconditional election
· Limited atonement
· Irresistible grace
· Preseverance of the saints
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,716
113
#2
5 Points of TULIP explained...

Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."


Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).


Unconditional Election:

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).


Limited Atonement:

Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).


Irresistible Grace:

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).


Perseverance of the Saints:

You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,518
1,045
113
Australia
#3
5 Points of TULIP explained...

Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."


Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).


Unconditional Election:

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).


Limited Atonement:

Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).


Irresistible Grace:

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).


Perseverance of the Saints:

You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
I'm not sure if you believe in the above as correct. Total depravity - yes i accept that we are born sinners and that we can't do anything good without God. I believe that if God didn't intervene we would be incapable of choosing anything but sin like a slave. But God has intervened and given us a choice. If this point "T" is not correct than the "ULIP" would be incorrect because they are based on this point being correct.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Free from What? Sin and the result of Sin, which is death.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Being set free we have a choice as to who we will serve.


Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I don't want to go into the other points just the "Total depravity" part for now.
We are sinful in every way and totally helpless with no hope of saving ourselves but if Jesus gives salvation from sin as a gift and the Holy Spirit to convict us and change us we have the choice to accept the gift or reject the gift.


Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I conclude that salvation from sin is a gift that we can accept or reject, God gets all the Glory and does all the work but we need to surrender or allow Him to work His good work within us.



Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,518
1,045
113
Australia
#4
Unconditional salvation. If that mean righteousness by faith alone i agree. We can't earn salvation but we do need faith.
This point "Limited Atonement", is the one i can't accept. If God only died for a selected few, and we have no choice about it, than that is a God i don't want to worship and that is not a God of Love. Jesus's death was enough for all sinners atonement because Jesus is God and was the creator of all. And to teach that His death was measured out and only worth the life of the selected ones takes away from His divine worth. The God i worship loves all sinners and wants to save all sinners.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#5
Calvinists broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century.
Calvin thought about himself as a pupil of Luther, so I would rather say that Calvinism is a branch of protestantism. Luther broke from the Roman Catholic Church and others just followed his example....
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#6
The limited atonement is the most unbiblical of these, its so easily refuted as someone already pointed out.

But what I like to ask about this time around is the perseverence of the saints.
I feel like its a mind trick being played on people, they are being told that the saints will persevere, dont worry about it, but then on the other hand if you dont stop sinning you arent one of the elect.
Naturally this will cause people who join these congregations to clean up their act, atleast on the surface.

I've listened to someone like James White debates on this topic, surely I can see he is well educated in many religions and traditions, but I just cant get past the feeling that this grace lottery system is just all about making people feel special and elect.

I can also understand how someone can look at calvinism and say that its great God is in control of everything, everything has a purpose we are in good hands etc. That all sounds good I guess, but there sure is a lot of wickedness in the world and id hate to pin that on God by saying He allows it for X unknown reason.

As negative as my posts come off as, dont get me wrong I'd love to be a calvinist, its a care free system, but I just cant see it. I'll keep on praying and investigating tho.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#7
The limited atonement is the most unbiblical of these, its so easily refuted as someone already pointed out.

But what I like to ask about this time around is the perseverence of the saints.
I feel like its a mind trick being played on people, they are being told that the saints will persevere, dont worry about it, but then on the other hand if you dont stop sinning you arent one of the elect.
Naturally this will cause people who join these congregations to clean up their act, atleast on the surface.

I've listened to someone like James White debates on this topic, surely I can see he is well educated in many religions and traditions, but I just cant get past the feeling that this grace lottery system is just all about making people feel special and elect.

I can also understand how someone can look at calvinism and say that its great God is in control of everything, everything has a purpose we are in good hands etc. That all sounds good I guess, but there sure is a lot of wickedness in the world and id hate to pin that on God by saying He allows it for X unknown reason.

As negative as my posts come off as, dont get me wrong I'd love to be a calvinist, its a care free system, but I just cant see it. I'll keep on praying and investigating tho.
If do not think that the perseverance of the saints claims "you will be saved no matter what you do, if you are elect.
That would be unbiblical and just wrong.

I think it claims "the elect ones will do what is needed for being saved", by the providence of God.

You look like somebody who is interesting in deeper things and meanings, I recommend you the Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz. It is explained there very well.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#8
If do not think that the perseverance of the saints claims "you will be saved no matter what you do, if you are elect.
That would be unbiblical and just wrong.

I think it claims "the elect ones will do what is needed for being saved", by the providence of God.

You look like somebody who is interesting in deeper things and meanings, I recommend you the Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz. It is explained there very well.
I've never heard of the term Theodicy, i googled it, alot of this stuff answers my questions good stuff. Thanks brother

I read an article about it and I agree with it, I can honestly admit i DO have a sense of entitlement for humanity, meaning I want everyone given a fair chance at salvation etc. Overall, im concerned with fairness in every regard, but God's fairness can be different to mine I realize that, its just a hard pil to swallow.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#9
I've never heard of the term Theodicy, i googled it, alot of this stuff answers my questions good stuff. Thanks brother

I read an article about it and I agree with it, I can honestly admit i DO have a sense of entitlement for humanity, meaning I want everyone given a fair chance at salvation etc. Overall, im concerned with fairness in every regard, but God's fairness can be different to mine I realize that, its just a hard pil to swallow.
Please, read the book. I am returning to this book over and over, very good brain food about these kind of things.

If you are interested, I can find for you the place exactly about this (election vs chain of the life events leading to salvation), but I really recommend to read whole the book in context.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#10
I'm not sure if you believe in the above as correct. Total depravity - yes i accept that we are born sinners and that we can't do anything good without God. I believe that if God didn't intervene we would be incapable of choosing anything but sin like a slave. But God has intervened and given us a choice. If this point "T" is not correct than the "ULIP" would be incorrect because they are based on this point being correct.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Free from What? Sin and the result of Sin, which is death.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Being set free we have a choice as to who we will serve.


Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I don't want to go into the other points just the "Total depravity" part for now.
We are sinful in every way and totally helpless with no hope of saving ourselves but if Jesus gives salvation from sin as a gift and the Holy Spirit to convict us and change us we have the choice to accept the gift or reject the gift.


Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I conclude that salvation from sin is a gift that we can accept or reject, God gets all the Glory and does all the work but we need to surrender or allow Him to work His good work within us.



Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


.
You're missing the point. You're right. We were slaves to sin. Since when does a slave get choice?

You're right. Jesus set us free. Notice, Jesus did that. We did not.

Every scripture you cited proved Total Depravity and yet you keep declaring "we have a choice."

What does "redeemed" mean to you? The product chooses to hop onto the checkout belt and pay for itself?
:confused:
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#11
Calvinism differs from Lutherans on the real presence of Christ in the the eucharist, theroies of worship, and the use of God's Law for believers, among other things.
Could you expound on these and explain what belongs to who?
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#12
Please, read the book. I am returning to this book over and over, very good brain food about these kind of things.

If you are interested, I can find for you the place exactly about this (election vs chain of the life events leading to salvation), but I really recommend to read whole the book in context.
So is the P in the TULIP as follows:

The faith that God gives to the elect, is a faith that causes them to turn from their sins and produce fruit? Kind of gives them the willingness, and then its upto them to clean up their act, God sort of makes them ABLE to do it?

Did I understand this correctly?
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#13
Yes, I believe in the TULIP theory, although it wasn't created by Calvin, but was used in remonstrance iirc against arminian error.

But there are issues with the terms, for example Total Depravity, some will say they are not totally depraved. I get it, but that isn't what the "T" actually is teaching so dig a little deeper than just scratching the surface.

Also, Irresistible Grace, people will say "A ha, we can resist grace...you're wrong!" (as if they're somehow proud of what they should be ashamed). Dig a little deeper, it is in relation to the elect, that God will seek them out and they will be saved, they will not always resist His grace.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#14
Unconditional salvation. If that mean righteousness by faith alone i agree. We can't earn salvation but we do need faith.
This point "Limited Atonement", is the one i can't accept. If God only died for a selected few, and we have no choice about it, than that is a God i don't want to worship and that is not a God of Love. Jesus's death was enough for all sinners atonement because Jesus is God and was the creator of all. And to teach that His death was measured out and only worth the life of the selected ones takes away from His divine worth. The God i worship loves all sinners and wants to save all sinners.
You're really going to have to get a longer version of what TULIP means because your guesswork isn't working. (No, Unconditional Salvation does not mean our faith saves us. Limited Atonement does mean exactly what you refuse to accept, except obviously you twist that into something else entirely, and then argue over what you've twisted into it. Not really worth arguing over to your twisted version, since that only exists in your mind.)

Heads up. TULIP is something that happened as a rebuttal against something Arminius wrote. Arminius wrote a book. The rebuttal was a book. You really are free to get the longer version of this, but try not to spew whatever crosses your mind on what everything means BEFORE finding out what it means.

Kind of like me spewing all sorts of things about Grout from Guardians of the Galaxies. I think Grout is cute, but I haven't seen the movie so can't really spew anything knowledgeable without first learning exactly who he is. And I'd look really stupid for trying.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#15
The limited atonement is the most unbiblical of these, its so easily refuted as someone already pointed out.

But what I like to ask about this time around is the perseverence of the saints.
I feel like its a mind trick being played on people, they are being told that the saints will persevere, dont worry about it, but then on the other hand if you dont stop sinning you arent one of the elect.
Naturally this will cause people who join these congregations to clean up their act, atleast on the surface.

I've listened to someone like James White debates on this topic, surely I can see he is well educated in many religions and traditions, but I just cant get past the feeling that this grace lottery system is just all about making people feel special and elect.

I can also understand how someone can look at calvinism and say that its great God is in control of everything, everything has a purpose we are in good hands etc. That all sounds good I guess, but there sure is a lot of wickedness in the world and id hate to pin that on God by saying He allows it for X unknown reason.

As negative as my posts come off as, dont get me wrong I'd love to be a calvinist, its a care free system, but I just cant see it. I'll keep on praying and investigating tho.
I'm buying your "argument" less and less. If I "love" something, I do something about it. I love gardening, therefore I garden. I love writing, therefore I write. I love Calvinism, therefore I read it. You were given all sorts of concrete places to study Calvinism weeks ago, and you're still coming up with the same stuff you said then.

You don't love Calvinism. You like pretending your smarter than Calvinists.

Truth is good!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#16
So is the P in the TULIP as follows:

The faith that God gives to the elect, is a faith that causes them to turn from their sins and produce fruit? Kind of gives them the willingness, and then its upto them to clean up their act, God sort of makes them ABLE to do it?

Did I understand this correctly?
Yes, I think it can be said like this... but we must also know that such things are very complex, pre-formed and pre-arranged in the Big Bang by the Lord Himself, so every "definition" about eternal election and how does God and man cooperate is quite a simplified stupid human´s view :)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#17
I've never heard of the term Theodicy, i googled it, alot of this stuff answers my questions good stuff. Thanks brother

I read an article about it and I agree with it, I can honestly admit i DO have a sense of entitlement for humanity, meaning I want everyone given a fair chance at salvation etc. Overall, im concerned with fairness in every regard, but God's fairness can be different to mine I realize that, its just a hard pil to swallow.
Nice game.

Want fairness? All deserve separation from God, death, and hell. THAT is what all of "humanity" fairly deserves.

Want chance? Too bad! God is. God is sovereign -- completely, totally, utterly sovereign. He is the ruler on high and all choices are only his choices. Therefore, there is no such thing as chance. He left nothing to chance!

You are entitled to one thing only, the same punishment we all richly deserve. Now, do you really want entitlement, or God's mercy?

Not bad for someone you think took Calvinism as the easy way out, huh? Nothing easy about God's choices. Amazing, but not easy!
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#18
Please, read the book. I am returning to this book over and over, very good brain food about these kind of things.

If you are interested, I can find for you the place exactly about this (election vs chain of the life events leading to salvation), but I really recommend to read whole the book in context.
Nah, really. He's going to have to learn all of it, not merely little pieces of it. Look what happens whenever people do pieces of it.



I've said this often, but it seems needed again. I do NOT think Calvinism saves. whether someone chooses to agree or disagree with Reformed Theology truly is up to them. It neither shows if they are nor aren't saved.

HOWEVER, to understand reformed theology is to finally get the Bible as one complete book versus a patchwork of seemingly conflicted sentences throughout.

Calvinism does NOT save, but it sure helps to understand better the glory that is God's alone!
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#19
Yes, I believe in the TULIP theory, although it wasn't created by Calvin, but was used in remonstrance iirc against arminian error.

But there are issues with the terms, for example Total Depravity, some will say they are not totally depraved. I get it, but that isn't what the "T" actually is teaching so dig a little deeper than just scratching the surface.

Also, Irresistible Grace, people will say "A ha, we can resist grace...you're wrong!" (as if they're somehow proud of what they should be ashamed). Dig a little deeper, it is in relation to the elect, that God will seek them out and they will be saved, they will not always resist His grace.
For Total depravity, I tend to go "Total, not utter." We are not utterly depraved or no one would be alive. Everyone would kill everyone else off, and then the last person standing would do something utterly foolish and kill himself/herself off. God has constrained us even on our depravity. The depravity is complete, but not utter.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#20
Depleted your signature is correct, "no lady". a cackling hen more like, or a smoking hyeena.
I've had it with your snobby attitude, i know unbelievers with better manners and more respect than you, here is the thing about respect, you need to show some to get some.

Always with personal attacks and malice, claiming to know people's hearts and intentions through the computer screen, welcome to my ignore list and go quit smoking like many atheists do after 30 years of smoking cold turkey. You claim to be elect and still are unable, doesnt look too good!
Not only do you like gardening, you also like playing God on the internet, smoking and being holier than thou.

Have that seat. Welcome to my ignore list.