God hating you before you're born?

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I

Iamlearning

Guest
#1
Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.

I would like to understand this a little better...

I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?

On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.

I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.

Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?

What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#2
People are going to have a lot of views on this. Since you quoted me, I will try and present mine at the very least.

First of all, I don't believe God predestined anyone to hell. This is called equal ultimacy and it is a belief I don't adhere to. Scripture doesn't teach it.

Scripture does teach, however, that all men are consigned to damnation because of the fall that took place with Adam. We are born into rebellion against God. The psalmist says "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Scripture also teaches that God, in his mercy, has chosen a people out of the world to save. We know that he chooses according to his own will and purpose and it is not dependent upon human will or exertion as stated in Romans 9 and many other places.

The full chapter of Romans 9 teaches that God desires to show his justice and wrath, so he chooses not to save all people so that this aspect of his nature can be manifested. God also wishes to show his mercy and love, so he chose some to save by means of the Gospel.

The opposing view is that "God is unjust for doing this", but as you can clearly read in Romans 9, Paul refutes this claim. The fair thing for God to do would be to let us all die in our sins, but in his mercy has chosen to save some for his own glory, apart from anything good or bad they may have done, or will do.

Free-will thinkers can't grasp this truth of scripture, so they come up with elaborate reasons as to why God would have chosen one unborn child over another, but Paul clearly explains it. It's literally all over his writings.

My view (the reformed view, and biblical view as far as I'm concerned) teaches that our will is in bondage to sin since the fall. We are slaves to sin, dead in our sins, do not seek after God, and are incapable of pleasing God or submitting to his law.

This isn't to say that we don't have a choice, because we do make choices. But our choice is based upon our sin nature. This is what I believe scripture teaches in a nutshell.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#3
No explanation will help you with this, I do not fully understand it, at the sometime I must submit to it or I'll become the human of 9:20.
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#4
Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.

I would like to understand this a little better...

I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?

On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.

I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.

Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?

What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.
*** we have free will--- whosoever wills so can be saved---God does not choose, we choose*** God so loved the world--- Christ died for all men*** the Gospel is we can be saved...
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#5
People are going to have a lot of views on this. Since you quoted me, I will try and present mine at the very least.

First of all, I don't believe God predestined anyone to hell. This is called equal ultimacy and it is a belief I don't adhere to. Scripture doesn't teach it.

Scripture does teach, however, that all men are consigned to damnation because of the fall that took place with Adam. We are born into rebellion against God. The psalmist says "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Scripture also teaches that God, in his mercy, has chosen a people out of the world to save. We know that he chooses according to his own will and purpose and it is not dependent upon human will or exertion as stated in Romans 9 and many other places.

The full chapter of Romans 9 teaches that God desires to show his justice and wrath, so he chooses not to save all people so that this aspect of his nature can be manifested. God also wishes to show his mercy and love, so he chose some to save by means of the Gospel.

The opposing view is that "God is unjust for doing this", but as you can clearly read in Romans 9, Paul refutes this claim. The fair thing for God to do would be to let us all die in our sins, but in his mercy has chosen to save some for his own glory, apart from anything good or bad they may have done, or will do.

Free-will thinkers can't grasp this truth of scripture, so they come up with elaborate reasons as to why God would have chosen one unborn child over another, but Paul clearly explains it. It's literally all over his writings.

My view (the reformed view, and biblical view as far as I'm concerned) teaches that our will is in bondage to sin since the fall. We are slaves to sin, dead in our sins, do not seek after God, and are incapable of pleasing God or submitting to his law.

This isn't to say that we don't have a choice, because we do make choices. But our choice is based upon our sin nature. This is what I believe scripture teaches in a nutshell.
I was just proved wrong, that is a great explanation. The idea that God elects those to hell in unbiblical, the idea that our will can chose God is also unbiblical, our free sinful will chooses exactly what it wants sin, why because we love sin rather than the light and if we do chose the light, it was done in God. John 3:16-21
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#6
No explanation will help you with this, I do not fully understand it, at the sometime I must submit to it or I'll become the human of 9:20.
*** God foreknowledge does not interfere with our free wll--- we choose to accept or reject God---- God's desire is all to be saved---- to say we are predestined by God to be lost is wrong...
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#7
*** God foreknowledge does not interfere with our free wll--- we choose to accept or reject God---- God's desire is all to be saved---- to say we are predestined by God to be lost is wrong...
No one said this. Please don't misrepresent your opposition.
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#8
Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.

I would like to understand this a little better...

I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?

On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.

I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.

Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?

What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.
*** you make the choice to be saved*** God knows what you will choose, yet that does not determine your choice...
 
I

Iamlearning

Guest
#9
People are going to have a lot of views on this. Since you quoted me, I will try and present mine at the very least.

First of all, I don't believe God predestined anyone to hell. This is called equal ultimacy and it is a belief I don't adhere to. Scripture doesn't teach it.

Scripture does teach, however, that all men are consigned to damnation because of the fall that took place with Adam. We are born into rebellion against God. The psalmist says "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."

Scripture also teaches that God, in his mercy, has chosen a people out of the world to save. We know that he chooses according to his own will and purpose and it is not dependent upon human will or exertion as stated in Romans 9 and many other places.

The full chapter of Romans 9 teaches that God desires to show his justice and wrath, so he chooses not to save all people so that this aspect of his nature can be manifested. God also wishes to show his mercy and love, so he chose some to save by means of the Gospel.

The opposing view is that "God is unjust for doing this", but as you can clearly read in Romans 9, Paul refutes this claim. The fair thing for God to do would be to let us all die in our sins, but in his mercy has chosen to save some for his own glory, apart from anything good or bad they may have done, or will do.

Free-will thinkers can't grasp this truth of scripture, so they come up with elaborate reasons as to why God would have chosen one unborn child over another, but Paul clearly explains it. It's literally all over his writings.

My view (the reformed view, and biblical view as far as I'm concerned) teaches that our will is in bondage to sin since the fall. We are slaves to sin, dead in our sins, do not seek after God, and are incapable of pleasing God or submitting to his law.

This isn't to say that we don't have a choice, because we do make choices. But our choice is based upon our sin nature. This is what I believe scripture teaches in a nutshell.

Thank you very much for your answer. This was a new view of God for me, I have always been taught God is pure and perfect Love. I didn't know he chose some people over others no matter what you do.

This left me a little anguished (more than a little, actually). So is there nothing we can do to save ourselves in case God didn't choose us as one of His blessed children from the start? Praying? Going to church? Confession? Repentance? Nothing? :S

Anxiety levels rising! May God have mercy on all of us
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#10
I was just proved wrong, that is a great explanation. The idea that God elects those to hell in unbiblical, the idea that our will can chose God is also unbiblical, our free sinful will chooses exactly what it wants sin, why because we love sin rather than the light and if we do chose the light, it was done in God. John 3:16-21
*** we can choose God even though we are sinful because of Grace...
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#11
*** you make the choice to be saved*** God knows what you will choose, yet that does not determine your choice...
***Scripture teaches we're not saved by human decision*** You shouldn't be presenting a different gospel than that of the Word. *** Please spend time reading the Word that denies your false decisional regeneration free will gospel***
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#12
I would probably prefer the term "natural will", because "free will" is not logically possible.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#13
Thank you very much for your answer. This was a new view of God for me, I have always been taught God is pure and perfect Love. I didn't know he chose some people over others no matter what you do.

This left me a little anguished (more than a little, actually). So is there nothing we can do to save ourselves in case God didn't choose us as one of His blessed children from the start? Praying? Going to church? Confession? Repentance? Nothing? :S

Anxiety levels rising! May God have mercy on all of us
You wouldn't be concerned about this if God were not working in you. Relax, trust God. If necessary, repent and believe the Gospel. :)
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#14
The Scriptures concerning Salvation are interpreted through God's Grace, not our sinfulness*** no matter how lost we are we can choose God's Salvation because His Grace opens the door***even the thief on the cross was reached by Grace not predestination...
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#15
Thank you very much for your answer. This was a new view of God for me, I have always been taught God is pure and perfect Love. I didn't know he chose some people over others no matter what you do.

This left me a little anguished (more than a little, actually). So is there nothing we can do to save ourselves in case God didn't choose us as one of His blessed children from the start? Praying? Going to church? Confession? Repentance? Nothing? :S

Anxiety levels rising! May God have mercy on all of us
The only reason anyone would be praying or seeking God is if he moved them to do so. Anyone that is receptive to the Gospel message and turns from their sin to God is because he has called them to do so. That should give you some hope.

I would advise you as well to study reformed theology and check what it teaches against scripture for yourself. I have looked at, and even believed for most of my life, a different type of theology and different doctrines (along the lines of word of faith teaching). It wasn't until I started testing different beliefs and views for myself against scripture that I came to the conclusion I have come to.

I hope you will do the same and I will pray God comforts you and brings you to an understanding of his truth.
 
I

Iamlearning

Guest
#16
*** you make the choice to be saved*** God knows what you will choose, yet that does not determine your choice...

Yes that makes sense... thank you
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#17
The core of the Gospel is God so loved the world He gave*** Grace when receive breaks the deepest sin ( I know this personally)...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#18
Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.

I would like to understand this a little better...

I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?

On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.

I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.

Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?

What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.
"GOD shows us HIS WORD through signs that we can understand and all these signs point to THE SPIRITUAL TRUTHs in HIS SON

Esau" and "Jacob" came forth from one flesh - (symbolic of one species -mankind)
GOD goes further to stress this one flesh by showing through a twin birth that these two "sons" were at the same time in one womb

There are two offspring in the world

But for "Jacob", another sign is given...

"Jacob" is made aware of GOD, he "wrestles with GOD, and does not let go"
and he is given a new (spiritual) name...Israel

DONT....LET GO
DONT...FALL BACK

Press on for that upward call in CHRIST
Taking hold of HIM, who took hold of us

Our HOPE is in CHRIST and those who hope in HIM are receiving the goal of their faith

Even their salvation

HE told us that in this world, we would have trouble but to take heart, for HE has overcome the world

And when snd if we sin, we are to confess our sins, and HE is faithful and just to purify us of all unrighteousness
Those who hope in HIM, purify themselves, even as HE is pure)

Esau had no need for GOD
Jacob did



(There's a difference between those whose sin convicts them (oh who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to GOD, CHRIST JESUS) and those whose conscience is seared)

For those HE loves, HE chastises so that our faith, more precious than gold (though tried in the fire) will rest entirely in and on HIM...and prove genuine (faith) resulting in HIS praise and glory
 
Last edited:

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
#19
What is it that you find all through out the Gospel? Repentance. To change one's mind and to turn towards God, or in the case of the Gospel, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So let me ask you, is salvation available to all? What does John 3:16 say? Did not Christ come to save, and not condemn the world? So your concern for your own soul is testament to your repentance, is it not? Or at the very least, your desire to repent. This being the case, salvation is available to whosoever believes, and you happen to be a whosoever.

What I'm getting at is that God doesn't hate you. He loves you, and He loves the world. That your heart is concerned about this topic is in and of itself revealing to its status. As a believer you have salvation, you have repented. You are not doomed to mediocrity but rather the promises of God in Christ Jesus are "yes" and "amen."

Now, ForthAngel has misused this verse to answer a question that the context wasn't attempting to answer. This article here is revealing and will help you understand, especially #3 (the refutation to the deterministic view).

How do you respond to Romans 9? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

As an added tidbit, just in Romans 10 it should soothe your concerns about salvation.

[h=1]Romans 10:10-12 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.[/FONT]
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#20
The only reason anyone would be praying or seeking God is if he moved them to do so. Anyone that is receptive to the Gospel message and turns from their sin to God is because he has called them to do so. That should give you some hope.

I would advise you as well to study reformed theology and check what it teaches against scripture for yourself. I have looked at, and even believed for most of my life, a different type of theology and different doctrines (along the lines of word of faith teaching). It wasn't until I started testing different beliefs and views for myself against scripture that I came to the conclusion I have come to.

I hope you will do the same and I will pray God comforts you and brings you to an understanding of his truth.
*** God's calling does not determine our free will*** Grace gives us a chance to say yes, not a predetermined life...