Open Theism? What is really being said?

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Nov 22, 2015
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#1
Open Theism? This is a term that I was not familiar with so I thought I would take a look at it.

I can see "if the definition in the next post's article is an accurate description" of what open theism actually is - I can see where this concept would bother those that think God doesn't give us a free will to chose Christ's salvation or not and thus it would be "heretical" to them because it would "conflict" with what they believe.

Of course then we "feel" we are allowed to insult and de-mean those that have a different view - so let's not start that work of the flesh in this thread and have a decent and respectful discussion so that we can see what is "exactly being said without the malice and slandering.

Let's see exactly what it is from the horse's mouth themselves so that we can take an "honest" look at what is being said. I have found that sometimes things can be mis-represented and twisted and also they are just plain mis-understood and also sometimes people just plain dis-agree even when things are presented in an open and honest way.

And that is ok. Paul says "none of us know all things in the way we ought to know them".

I'll do some research today to look at this "open theism" concept but for now here is a definition. Is this accurate for those that actually do know what "open theism" is?

I will post the definition in the next post. Let's respect each other here now in the body of Christ because we all need each other.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Open Theism

Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future. Though omnipotent, He has chosen to invite us to freely collaborate with Him in governing and developing His creation, thereby also allowing us the freedom to thwart His hopes for us. God desires that each of us freely enter into a loving and dynamic personal relationship with Him, and He has therefore left it open to us to choose for or against His will.

While Open Theists affirm that God knows all the truths that can be known, they claim that there simply are not yet truths about what will occur in the “open,” undetermined future. Alternatively, there are such contingent truths, but these truths cannot be known by anyone, including God.

Even though God is all-powerful, allowing Him to do everything that can be done, He cannot create round squares or make 2 +2 = 5 or do anything that is logically impossible. Omniscience is understood in a similar manner. God is all-knowing and can know all that can be known, but He cannot know the contingent future, since that too, is impossible. God knows all the possible ways the world might go at any point in time, but He does not know the one way the world will go, so long as some part of what will happen in the future is contingent. So, Open Theists oppose the claim of the sixteenth century Jesuit theologian, Luis de Molina, that God has "middle knowledge."

Open Theists believe that Scripture teaches that God wanted to give us the freedom to choose to love or reject Him. In order for each of us to genuinely have a choice for which we are morally responsible, we must have the ability to do otherwise than we do. This is the distinctive necessary condition of what has come to be called libertarian freedom.

God may intervene in the created world at any time, and He may determine that we act in ways of His choosing. But He cannot both respect our libertarian freedom and guarantee that we will do specific things freely. Thus, Open Theists believe that God has created a world in which He takes the risk that many of us will reject Him and act in ways opposed to Him, in order to give us the opportunity to freely choose to love and obey Him.

Open Theism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy


There are tons more in this article if people are interested - they can check out the link above.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#3
The Scripture twisting above is unbelievable (from the author of the OP's statements)

Heresy isn't defined as "differing opinions" they are labeled damnable heresies. That's the first mistake of the OP, so he isn't representing God's Word, he's merely making up his own doctrine to tickle his own ears. (Has to in order to protect his other false teachings so there is that bias).

But now we have one set out to propagate and endorse Open Theism as not heresy, so we have an old Socinian heresy being revived and endorsed.

Taking Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 8:2 (or perhaps it is 1 Corinthians 13:12 as both have a context contrary to the misuse of how the author of the OP is wresting it) is being misused, contorted, as a proof text against sound doctrine, and therefore, really anything goes no matter what you teach. It goes even further in its absurd reach: There is no real standard for true doctrine about God, therefore to teach that God isn't omniscient is perfectly fine, there is no standard (as in Isaiah 46).

Sad, sad day in the church when you have professing believers who have departed from the faith and teach damnable heresies as in the OP.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#4
Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future

Alternatively, there are such contingent truths, but these truths cannot be known by anyone, including God.

Even though God is all-powerful, allowing Him to do everything that can be done, He cannot create round squares or make 2 +2 = 5 or do anything that is logically impossible. Omniscience is understood in a similar manner.

God is all-knowing and can know all that can be known, but He cannot know the contingent future, since that too, is impossible. God knows all the possible ways the world might go at any point in time, but He does not know the one way the world will go, so long as some part of what will happen in the future is contingent.

"If the above in brown is a true representation of the open theists concept" - then I personally don't agree with is part.

I don't think we can with our human natural reasoning figure out how God can know all things and yet still work His purpose in our lives. Sometimes the philosophy and natural reasoning of men tries to elevate itself above God and in the end it will never be able to succeed.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#5
Open Theism is a flawed overreaction to Calvinism that denies God's omniscience by placing Him within His own creation and limiting Him to it's linear timeline. I reject it.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#6
Open Theism

Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions.

God desires that each of us freely enter into a loving and dynamic personal relationship with Him, and He has therefore left it open to us to choose for or against His will.



Open Theists believe that Scripture teaches that God wanted to give us the freedom to choose to love or reject Him. In order for each of us to genuinely have a choice for which we are morally responsible, we must have the ability to do otherwise than we do.

God may intervene in the created world at any time, and He may determine that we act in ways of His choosing. But He cannot both respect our libertarian freedom and guarantee that we will do specific things freely. Thus, Open Theists believe that God has created a world in which He takes the risk that many of us will reject Him and act in ways opposed to Him, in order to give us the opportunity to freely choose to love and obey Him.




Personally I do believe in the above in brown. - if that is true of what these open theists concepts actually believe.

That God gives us a free will to choose His love or reject it. We can choose Christ or reject Him. God created us with His like-ness which means that within the Trinity - they intermingle with each other in mutual respect and total devotional love based on their free will.

I'll check them out later when I come back from playing pickleball. God "for-ordained" that I go play today...:)...and the good part is - He is right here with me. ( now I just need to hear correctly and then listen to what He is saying...)
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#7
Here is a good debate on the issue by a leading reformer and a leading open theist.

[video=youtube;isRksh30ZUI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isRksh30ZUI[/video]
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#8
Open Theism is a flawed overreaction to Calvinism that denies God's omniscience by placing Him within His own creation and limiting Him to it's linear timeline. I reject it.

That's what I seem to see of it so far too - this area of omniscience. It appears they are trying to understand God with their own natural reasonings in this area of omniscience and we all will fall hopelessly short in that area.
 

MadebyHim

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2016
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#9
About 7 or 8 years ago, i went out to california to see some friends(brothers and sisters). Was talking one day to one of the elders about people just not getting it, and my concerns about how things are moving so fast, having concerns about family, friends, and others. All the man said was, and he said it bluntly, save your own ...!

The man died a few months after that, but when i start feeling anxious when sharing Jesus and what He is to us, with others, and they don't even hear because the cell phone distractions or other things, what the man said to me rings a bell.

The word even says, if they won't hear, then move along.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#10
Here is a good debate on the issue by a leading reformer and a leading open theist.

[video=youtube;isRksh30ZUI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isRksh30ZUI[/video]
Thanks for the video - I'll check it out later.

As, I said in my OP - I never heard the term before the other day and thought I would look at it.

Usually there are true points and not so true points in every debate. The problem is that we sometimes throw it all out because of one point that we disagree with and thus we can miss the truth that is in it that the Holy Spirit is showing us.

If we called everyone a heretic for not having all the truth "as we believe it to be" - then everyone would be a heretic including reformed, Pentecostal, charismatic, baptists, Lutheran...etc. - in essence - every denomination and every Christian in the world.

Christ alone is our Lord and what He has already done is the gospel message is what should bind us all together. We access this grace in which we stand by faith in Him alone.

 
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BeyondET

Guest
#11
I've never heard of that either,
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#12
Here is one theologian talking about it in this short 3:45 minute video which he explains the so-called "open view" verses everything is already settled and no one has any real choices and nothing can be changed.


[video=youtube;gApXDGjyksw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gApXDGjyksw[/video]
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#13
It's impossible to trust the open theist god made in man's image. He can choose to be fickle, could do away with his promises at any moment, the Trinity could divide and turn against itself, and so on. These are logical conclusions based on their theology and doctrines.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#14
Here is one theologian talking about it in this short 3:45 minute video which he explains the so-called "open view" verses everything is already settled and no one has any real choices and nothing can be changed.


[video=youtube;gApXDGjyksw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gApXDGjyksw[/video]
Interesting video, seems it's about free will and people having a choice.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#15

That's what I seem to see of it so far too - this area of omniscience. It appears they are trying to understand God with their own natural reasonings in this area of omniscience and we all will fall hopelessly short in that area.
I think I am on the same page as you. I think open Theism places a time restraint on God. God is not subject or bound by time, and even though God does know what will happen, He simply sees what we will freely choose to do. Just because God knows what we will choose to do, does not mean we didn't choose to do it. That's the way I've come to understand it.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#16
Open Theism and Calvinism both seem to miss God's intent to have a relationship with us.

Different subject: Is Pickle ball just a stunted form of tennis where they didn't have room to construct a full-sized court?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#17
It's impossible to trust the open theist god made in man's image. He can choose to be fickle, could do away with his promises at any moment, the Trinity could divide and turn against itself, and so on. These are logical conclusions based on their theology and doctrines.
I haven't listened to the concept enough yet to find out what they are really saying and sometimes our own conclusions could be off and not accurately reflect what the others are saying.

It doesn't necessarily have to mean that the Trinity explodes within themselves or that the promises of God are not true - that could be just our own way of "processing" free will and choice in our natural understanding.

It could be that God is God and He does work His greatness in every situation no matter what is done - God brings about His purposes in the face of free will and that is what makes Him - God.

God Himself ahs a free will and He made us in His like-ness.

The other side of the coin is - if God ordained that the rapists come in and rape and kill a little child. That is morally wrong on so many levels that it actually destroys the very nature and character of God. The mind and heart of man is not designed to trust in a being like that.

I firmly believe that some people are not really rejecting God - they are rejecting what we as Christians are "projecting as being God".


Jesus is perfect theology - Jesus came to show us the Father and to reveal His true nature. He is the exact representation of the Father's nature . Heb. 1:2-3

If we see Jesus doing it - then that is what is true about the nature of the Father.

Did Jesus give people "choices" and say "If they believe - all things are possible with God?"

Anyway - I'll continue to look at it to see "exactly what is being said" because I do believe in free choice and I do not for one second believe God brings evil on people. This violates His very nature and character.

He does seem to allow them to continue in the choices they have made for themselves and yet at every opportunity He continues to show His love and goodness to us to persuade us to trust in Him because only in Christ is there true life and meaning.

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance..
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#18
It's impossible to trust the open theist god made in man's image. He can choose to be fickle, could do away with his promises at any moment, the Trinity could divide and turn against itself, and so on. These are logical conclusions based on their theology and doctrines.
Yep. Like the brother I heard preaching recently who said "Jesus could have come down off the cross if he wanted to." Imagine the unfulfilled prophecies and chaos in the Godhead with that happening.

But, it's just a differing opinion, and we really don't know anything, that's what allegedly Paul said and meant according to the OP, so it's all good -- there is no standard. We now have a verse that does away with that standard quoted in the OP.

I heard a guy last night who goes to a UU "church" saying how happy he is going there because there are atheists, Buddhists, New Agers, practicing sodomites, alleged Christians &c. Everything each individual believes is valid there and accepted as truth. They only have differing opinions so no biggie.
 
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ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#19
I haven't listened to the concept enough yet to find out what they are really saying and sometimes our own conclusions could be off and not accurately reflect what the others are saying.

It doesn't necessarily have to mean that the Trinity explodes within themselves or that the promises of God are not true - that could be just our own way of "processing" free will and choice in our natural understanding.

It could be that God is God and He does work His greatness in every situation no matter what is done - God brings about His purposes in the face of free will and that is what makes Him - God.

God Himself ahs a free will and He made us in His like-ness.

The other side of the coin is - if God ordained that the rapists come in and rape and kill a little child. That is morally wrong on so many levels that it actually destroys the very nature and character of God. The mind and heart of man is not designed to trust in a being like that.

I firmly believe that some people are not really rejecting God - they are rejecting what we as Christians are "projecting as being God".


Jesus is perfect theology - Jesus came to show us the Father and to reveal His true nature. He is the exact representation of the Father's nature . Heb. 1:2-3

If we see Jesus doing it - then that is what is true about the nature of the Father.

Did Jesus give people "choices" and say "If they believe - all things are possible with God?"

Anyway - I'll continue to look at it to see "exactly what is being said" because I do believe in free choice and I do not for one second believe God brings evil on people. This violates His very nature and character.

He does seem to allow them to continue in the choices they have made for themselves and yet at every opportunity He continues to show His love and goodness to us to persuade us to trust in Him because only in Christ is there true life and meaning.

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance..
I mean, you can defend it all you want. Open theism is bad stuff. You say God can do anything, can he lie? Can his nature and being change? Open theists say yes. What about you? It's not about the free will of man, it attacks the nature of God as he has revealed himself.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#20
Open Theism and Calvinism both seem to miss God's intent to have a relationship with us.

Different subject: Is Pickle ball just a stunted form of tennis where they didn't have room to construct a full-sized court?
Pickleball is the fastest growing sport in the US. It seems to be a cross between tennis and ping pong and you are right the court is smaller.


[video=youtube;hEPXLp1kR7o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEPXLp1kR7o&t=2310s[/video]