Was St Paul just being pompous?

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A

Alnmouth

Guest
#1
#1
The Bible can surprise me. I've read all of it at one time or another, but even so I sometimes come across interesting passages which I seem to have missed before.

In 1Timothy 1:15, St Paul says that he is the worst of sinners, and then repeats this in the very next verse.

It is an easy passage to read without grabbing the full meaning, but one day I found myself puzzled by it. It appears at a glance to be a very arrogant thing to say. You may be just a common sinner, but St Paul is the worst of sinners.

Then it dawned on me that St Paul was one of the first people ever to persecute Christians - until around midday as he approached Damascus.

In short, it appears that St Paul was implying that the worst sinner is the person who persecutes Christians.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#2
#2
I look at it this way, regardless what Paul thought of himself, Jesus thought of him differently...
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#3
#3
to my understanding before paul was saved

he would literally murder men who followed the truth

hes an example of a new heart
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#4
#4
Actually I think that verse is a representation of how many people feel. It's an every man verse, not an arrogant one.
Also what sense does it make to be arrogant, which indicates pride, in your evil doing while sacrificing your life to live in holiness?

If it sounds like a horse think horse, not zebra.
 
Sac49

Sac49

Senior Member
#5
Jun 26, 2016
582
30
0
#5
I think part of the reason Paul mentions this was so that others wouldnt lift him up and put him on a pedastool. He wanted to keep the focus on Jesus. It could also be a way of humbling himself. A way of reminding himself that he is no better than anyone else.

In actuallity the worst person is someone who attributes the power of God to something else knowing that it came from God. This being the "unforgivable sin". Pauls persecution of Christians was bad but there is no "hierarchy" of sin to God as it is either sin or not sin. (Besides of course blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as i mentioned.)
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#6
#6
Acts 13:9-11King James Version (KJV)

9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.




Acts 9:1-19King James Version (KJV)

9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus




the life he lived before being saved
was as wicked as wicked gets
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#7
Sep 4, 2013
30,186
6,530
113
#7
Don't know why you call him Saint Paul.............but maybe that's the problem. Paul refused to elevate himself. He remained humble and believed himself to be completely unworthy of Gods love and his salvation. He considered himself the worst of sinners just as he considered himself the least of the Apostles.

Paul is a great example of Christian humility. As for sin.........all sin leads to eternal damnation......

Alnmouth said:
The Bible can surprise me. I've read all of it at one time or another, but even so I sometimes come across interesting passages which I seem to have missed before.

In 1Timothy 1:15, St Paul says that he is the worst of sinners, and then repeats this in the very next verse.

It is an easy passage to read without grabbing the full meaning, but one day I found myself puzzled by it. It appears at a glance to be a very arrogant thing to say. You may be just a common sinner, but St Paul is the worst of sinners.

Then it dawned on me that St Paul was one of the first people ever to persecute Christians - until around midday as he approached Damascus.

In short, it appears that St Paul was implying that the worst sinner is the person who persecutes Christians.
Click to expand...
 
J

joshuaa

Member
#8
May 9, 2017
31
1
0
#8
Matthew 11:11 Among them that are born by women there is none greater the John the Baptist, but he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

Was Jesus predicting Paul "the least of all saints"?
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#9
#9
joshuaa said:
Matthew 11:11 Among them that are born by women there is none greater the John the Baptist, but he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

Was Jesus predicting Paul "the least of all saints"?
Click to expand...
Was Paul in the kingdom of heaven when Jesus spoke those words?
 
J

joshuaa

Member
#10
May 9, 2017
31
1
0
#10
No, but only Matthew refers to it as the kingdom of heaven. The other gospels refer to it as the kingdom of God. Paul was still Saul, probably a Pharisee in training when Jesus spoke those words. When Matthew was written, Paul was the apostle to us gentiles.
 
S

sevenseas

Guest
#11
#11
Alnmouth said:
The Bible can surprise me. I've read all of it at one time or another, but even so I sometimes come across interesting passages which I seem to have missed before.

In 1Timothy 1:15, St Paul says that he is the worst of sinners, and then repeats this in the very next verse.

It is an easy passage to read without grabbing the full meaning, but one day I found myself puzzled by it. It appears at a glance to be a very arrogant thing to say. You may be just a common sinner, but St Paul is the worst of sinners.

Then it dawned on me that St Paul was one of the first people ever to persecute Christians - until around midday as he approached Damascus.

In short, it appears that St Paul was implying that the worst sinner is the person who persecutes Christians.
Click to expand...

I would say no.

I kind of agree with what Ugly said

the first persecutors of Christianity would be the established religious leaders of the day, no? those who contradicted Jesus at every turn and eventually conspired to have Him arrested and killed

every sin kills. even the smallest one and it does not appear that scripture indicates there is a scale of some sort for identifying sins except stating that sexual sin is not outside the body and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable


I think the logical conclusion of what you lean towards in your interpretation, is that we are ALL the worst of sinners because Christ died for every one of us. we have all, contextually, persecuted Him
 
A

Alnmouth

Guest
#12
#12
p_rehbein said:
Don't know why you call him Saint Paul...
Click to expand...
To be fair, I don't think he ever described himself as a saint, but he did use the word saint to describe people who went to church - or at least some people who went to church.

Point taken though. I refer to him as Saint Paul as a matter of convention.
 
S

sevenseas

Guest
#13
#13
it should be noted that Paul addressed the recipients of his letters as saints, meaning those in Christ

I think Galatians is the exception to that if I remember right
 
hornetguy

hornetguy

Senior Member
#14
Jan 18, 2016
6,639
1,392
113
#14
Well, St Alnmouth, (we're all saints, don't you know..:)) I think he was trying to convince those sinners that they, too, could be saved... much like saying, "it's so simple, even I can do it".... Or, "if God will save even ME, a guy who used to persecute Christians even to death, He will surely save you"....
 
M

Miri

Guest
#15
#15
Me reading between the lines - maybe Paul was trying to get across that
if Jesus could save him, He could save anyone. Have a read of the earlier
verses and see what you think.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#16
#16
hornetguy said:
Well, St Alnmouth, (we're all saints, don't you know..:)) I think he was trying to convince those sinners that they, too, could be saved... much like saying, "it's so simple, even I can do it".... Or, "if God will save even ME, a guy who used to persecute Christians even to death, He will surely save you"....
Click to expand...

Oh you just beat me to it. :)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#17
Jul 3, 2015
55,817
25,994
113
#17
Sac49 said:
I think part of the reason Paul mentions this was so that others wouldnt lift him up and put him on a pedastool. He wanted to keep the focus on Jesus. It could also be a way of humbling himself. A way of reminding himself that he is no better than anyone else.

In actuallity the worst person is someone who attributes the power of God to something else knowing that it came from God. This being the "unforgivable sin". Pauls persecution of Christians was bad but there is no "hierarchy" of sin to God as it is either sin or not sin. (Besides of course blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as i mentioned.)
Click to expand...
I wanted to like your post until I got to the end, where you say there is no hierarchy of sin. Jesus actually said that there is, so it would seem from God's perspective that there is a hierarchy of sin. For the referent, I will direct your attention to what Jesus said to Pontius Pilate prior to His crucifixion. Pilate repeatedly found no fault in Jesus, questioned what truth was, and was surprised that Jesus mounted no defense of Himself in light of the charges against Him, and what He was facing.

"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you
realizeI have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me
if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the
one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
 
L

lonestar26

Banned
#18
May 8, 2017
119
2
0
#18
Alnmouth said:
To be fair, I don't think he ever described himself as a saint, but he did use the word saint to describe people who went to church - or at least some people who went to church.

Point taken though. I refer to him as Saint Paul as a matter of convention.
Click to expand...
you should ask yourself why Paul called people saints and not sinners.
 
A

Alnmouth

Guest
#19
#19
lonestar26 said:
you should ask yourself why Paul called people saints and not sinners.
Click to expand...
Presumably we are both, and Paul was being polite.

Magenta said:

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me
if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the
one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."
Click to expand...
Thanks for pointing that out. It is the sort of detail which is easily overlooked.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#20
Jul 3, 2015
55,817
25,994
113
#20
Alnmouth said:
Thanks for pointing that out. It is the sort of detail which is easily overlooked.
Click to expand...
You are welcome :) I do understand that from the perspective of the law, when you break one command or law you have failed in all equally, and are guilty of breaking all of the law, but that seems a different thing than saying there is no hierarchy of sin :) The good news is that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for sin, and we are no longer under the law, but live by faith in His propitiatory sacrifice, where He poured out His righteous blood that we may attain to a life ever lasting, in a new world (following the resurrection and judgement of all), where there will be no more sin, nor sorrow, nor suffering, nor pain, nor death. That sounds like very good news to me :D
 
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