Ye olde HELL thread...

[DiscipleDave]

In a different thread someone brought up the subject of hell and it reminded me that more and more people claiming to be bible believing Christians are starting to believe there either is no hell or "annialationalism" where a person may spend some time in hell but after a while God snuffs them out so they are dead like a dog meaning they have no further consciousness.

After this post, I'll post a bunch of verses I have saved on my computer that ware saved over the years when this tiopic came up and I saved verses related to the subject of hell.

But first... I found one a while back that appears to say that after the new Heaven and new Earth have been established, those that are 'saved' and living with the Lord in eternity will be able to see those that have gone to hell and it will serve as a reminder... apparently because man has free will and if lucifer could rebel against God without having a tempter then man can to and the Lord wants there to be a memorial for everyone to see what happens to those that oppose God:

Isaiah 66:22-24
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Freaky deaky, ain't it???

We are all children of God, which is to say immortal. The spirit that is within us can't die, can't be killed, it will either be in Heaven or Hell for all eternity. satan was a child of God. demons are children of God. Angels are children of God. We are children of God. All immortal. The flesh that you reside in now, is mortal, it will die and return to dust from where it came from. But the Spirit that is in you is the Breath of God, comes from God, use to live in Heaven for eons. satan and demons, who were present in Heaven and worshipped God in Heaven for eons and eons, where all children of God and immortal. Then greed was created by Lucifer, he desired to have what Jesus possessed, the THRONE of God, and tried to take it by recruiting other children of God to help him with his goal. satan and all those who chose to follow satan where then cast out of Heaven. And these became fallen children of God.

The Spirit that is in YOU, is immortal, it can't be killed, nor can it die. Because it is a child of God (God=immortal) So you will either be in Heaven or in Hell when it is created at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever, never to cease being. Hell is only a place that prevents anyone in it, to escape into Heaven. It is Heaven's prison. Since you can't kill satan (he is immortal) The Father is going to create a place to prison him for ever and ever, this is called Hell.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave.com

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation clearly talks about those who worship the beast and receives his mark being tormented day and night forever. Btw annihilationism is false doctrine.

Good day PrynceNY,

Maybe you should ask Valiant how it is possible for the smoke of their torment to ascend up forever and ever and to have no rest day or night for those who worship the beast, his image or receive his mark? Those require conscious existence in order to experience them. The word "torment" infers the idea of on-going punishment.

Valiant is also wrong regarding mankind not being immortal, for every person who comes into the world exists forever. Life and death are both states of conscious existence. Eternal life being in the presence of God and all that He has prepared for us and death is conscious existence in separation from God and punishment in the lake of fire.

Regarding annihilation, neither the words apollumi, apoliea nor olethros convey the idea of annihilation, but rather a complete loss of well being, ruination. Furthermore, why would annihilation be a just sentence for those who have sinned against the eternal God and who have rejected His Son. People already commit suicide because they think that when they do that they become non-existent. So, how could annihilation be a just judgment.

The fire is everlasting, we are not.

If those who are thrown into the lake of fire are burnt up on impact, then there would be no need for everlasting fire. The "everlasting fire" is in reference to the status of those who are in it.

the blackness and darkness is sign of final death So you admit there is no Scripture which speaks of eternal torment?

Kind of hard for there to be a "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in outer darkness if you don't exist, wouldn't you say Valiant? Go ahead now and scramble for an existing apologetic or rush to make one up.

 

[PrynceNY]

Good day PrynceNY,

Maybe you should ask Valiant how it is possible for the smoke of their torment to ascend up forever and ever and to have no rest day or night for those who worship the beast, his image or receive his mark? Those require conscious existence in order to experience them. The word "torment" infers the idea of on-going punishment.

Valiant is also wrong regarding mankind not being immortal, for every person who comes into the world exists forever. Life and death are both states of conscious existence. Eternal life being in the presence of God and all that He has prepared for us and death is conscious existence in separation from God and punishment in the lake of fire.

Regarding annihilation, neither the words apollumi, apoliea nor olethros convey the idea of annihilation, but rather a complete loss of well being, ruination. Furthermore, why would annihilation be a just sentence for those who have sinned against the eternal God and who have rejected His Son. People already commit suicide because they think that when they do that they become non-existent. So, how could annihilation be a just judgment.



If those who are thrown into the lake of fire are burnt up on impact, then there would be no need for everlasting fire. The "everlasting fire" is in reference to the status of those who are in it.



Kind of hard for there to be a "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in outer darkness if you don't exist, wouldn't you say Valiant? Go ahead now and scramble for an existing apologetic or rush to make one up.

Hello Ahwatukee, Dealing with annihilationist they probably wont get it until the Lord tells them himself. Many of them go based on their emotions than what direct scripture says. Hell is worst than any of us can imagine.

 

[Blain]

Hello Ahwatukee, Dealing with annihilationist they probably wont get it until the Lord tells them himself. Many of them go based on their emotions than what direct scripture says. Hell is worst than any of us can imagine.

Sometimes nothing you do or say will change a persons mind in that situation you shake the dust off your feet and walk away

 

[shakinah]

Blain, when things like that happen, you are always in the spirit, which means you have an out of body experience. but you feel the end effects when returning back into your body. i have had the same thing happen to me, but it was not hell. hell is real. people that don't believe it ,dont believe Jesus.satan is not in hell, he is here on earth at the moment ,up until he is locked up in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. doing that time his influence will no longer be on the earth. Hell is the first death for the wicked.,the second death is the lake of fire they will be tossed in, along with satan and his angels. it will be like piling up all the trash on earth in one pile and setting it on fire.when the righteous die, that go to paradise where the tree of life is. right into the bosom of Abraham..Abraham is the father of our faith. we have same faith he had.

any scripture to back up this outer body experience, paul said I know that this man--whether in the bodyor apart from the body I do not know. so just wondering as i always thought astral projection was sort of new age thinking

 

[Blain]

any scripture to back up this outer body experience, paul said I know that this man--whether in the bodyor apart from the body I do not know. so just wondering as i always thought astral projection was sort of new age thinking

Astral projection is the devils mockery of being taken in the spirit. When God takes ones spirit to somewhere it is by his will and his power especially when it's into the spiritual realm but astral projection is by ones own self will not God's

 

[shakinah]

Astral projection is the devils mockery of being taken in the spirit. When God takes ones spirit to somewhere it is by his will and his power especially when it's into the spiritual realm but astral projection is by ones own self will not God's

hi bro, i'm not saying what it might have felt like, many had visions in the bible, but to say you actually left your body, even paul couldn't say that he said he didn't know, so i must ask again any scripture to back it up, bad doctrines start when we treat what we perceive to be a truth without first checking it against gods word. being someone who was brought up as a spiritualist i know how dangerous this concept can be. so if you were to say it felt like you left your body, thats fine, but to say you actually did, scripture please....

 

[Blain]

hi bro, i'm not saying what it might have felt like, many had visions in the bible, but to say you actually left your body, even paul couldn't say that he said he didn't know, so i must ask again any scripture to back it up, bad doctrines start when we treat what we perceive to be a truth without first checking it against gods word. being someone who was brought up as a spiritualist i know how dangerous this concept can be. so if you were to say it felt like you left your body, thats fine, but to say you actually did, scripture please....

Well firstly you already posted the scripture required, Paul didn't know if he was in his real body or a spiritual one when he saw this man.
Also when I was in hell true enough I couldn't tell if I was in my real body or a spiritual one but I didn't leave my body like with astral projection I was just taken. Considering I was sweating so bad that my shirt was glued to my skin I am leaning more towards the idea I was in my real body but apart from what Paul aid there is not really much scripture on such events

 

[shakinah]

okies, and the experience brought you closer to christ which is good bro, blessings to you...( the user i addressed is alluding to being a prophet in his blog which caught my attention)

 

[Blain]

okies, and the experience brought you closer to christ which is good bro, blessings to you...( the user i addressed is alluding to being a prophet in his blog which caught my attention)

Many claim to be prophets but the fruits of a prophet often times affect the hearts of others. If your talking about Gabriel I don't know if he is a prophet or not but in his blog post of a prophet I just posted in it as I think he misunderstood what a prophet is in his blog.

Although I do want to find more scripture on this subject as I know that even though what i experienced brought me closer to God I still am not exempt from testing it against scripture

 

[shakinah]

he suggests the word giants in the bible meant people of great height, whereas if he knew hebrew he would know it was men of great power over others, he says cain and abel were not adams children, thats out of gnostic teaching, he says he knew bible before reading it and there's 3 errors so far,

 

[shakinah]

he says' Noah's sons were not righteous, but shem were the better bloodline for God's plan.' whereas theres no bible verse to back that up he claims jesus wasn't jewish, well i dont even need to defend that 1

 

[Blain]

I fail to see how any of that would make him a prophet not only because none of that has to do with being a prophet but the role of a prophet is often times misunderstood

 

[shakinah]

all prophets offered a way forward too not just doom, he got that wrong too, but just watch and see, its coming. after being on a christian site for 6 years you get to see the signs. the only reason i'm saying this is to protect the sheep, if he werent giving advice i'd leave him to his own devices..

 

[rstrats]

Assumptions have to be made about the meaning of a certain words. There are no black and white scriptures that absolutely prove everlasting torture or that absolutely prove the everlasting cessation of being. A person has to WANT one or the other to be the case when forming an opinion about the meaning of a word.

Take the words "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 - If you interpret it to mean "everlasting torture" it must be because you want it to mean that since you could just as easily interpret it to mean something else. There is no scripture that proves the "punishment" means torture. Nor is there any scripture that proves that it doesn't.

If you think that it is fit and proper to torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t or couldn’t meet the supreme being's requirements nor develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being, then you will very likely interpret the word "punishment' to mean torture.

But if you think that it would be against character for a loving supreme being to torture a person for eternity simply because they didn’t or couldn’t meet the supreme being's requirements nor develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with Him, then after the person is found guilty, you will probably interpret the "punishment" or sentence handed down to consist of having the person wiped out of existence for eternity.

BTW, does the supreme being have any input into the creation of a person?

 

[samuel23]

The question of all time, most Christians, including me, usually avoid. How could God cast people into hell and then into the lake of fire? I do not believe there is any way we can really understand it in this life. From where I am it does not really seem fair, however I did not create the universe and bring all life into existence. I know this, God does not want humans to suffer, He wants them to be saved and have a good life with Him, exactly WHY things have to be the way they are...I DO NO KNOW.

 

[valiant]

We are all children of God, which is to say immortal.

Funny that God forgot to mention it
1). The Pentateuch gives the impression that death is the end.
2). Most of the Old Testament sees nothing beyond death.
3). Even what it does see is vague shadows which may well be parabolic.
4). Resurrection (as opposed to immortality) occurs only in Isaiah and Daniel.
5). Immortality occurs nowhere. It is surmised

The spirit that is within us can't die, can't be killed, it will either be in Heaven or Hell for all eternity.

were do you get that idea from?

Satan was a child of God. demons are children of God. Angels are children of God. We are children of God.

This is so ridiculous it is unbelievable.

The flesh that you reside in now, is mortal, it will die and return to dust from where it came from. But the spirit that is in you is the Breath of God, comes from God, use to live in Heaven for eons.

Scripture. And don't produce 'the spirit returning to God Who gave it', because that could mean its end .

Satan and demons, who were present in Heaven and worshipped God in Heaven for eons and eons, where all children of God and immortal.

They were not children of God as we mean children. They were of the nature of the Elohim. But they WERE eternal

Then greed was created by Lucifer, he desired to have what Jesus possessed, the THRONE of God, and tried to take it by recruiting other children of God to help him with his goal. satan and all those who chose to follow satan where then cast out of Heaven. And these became fallen children of God.

Lucifer was another name for the kings of Babylon,

The Spirit that is in YOU, is immortal, it can't be killed, nor can it die.

Scripture which teaches that this is true of all men.?

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by PrynceNY

Revelation clearly talks about those who worship the beast and receives his mark being tormented day and night forever.

Where?

Maybe you should ask Valiant how it is possible for the smoke of their torment to ascend up forever and ever and to have no rest day or night for those who worship the beast, his image or receive his mark? Those require conscious existence in order to experience them. The word "torment" infers the idea of on-going punishment.

The Cherubim in Rev 4.8 'have no rest day or night' (same Greek) as they praise God. The worshippers of the Beast also 'have no rest day or night' as they worship the Beast. But it does not say for ever.

The picture of them being 'tortured day and night' is taken from the Roman method of examining the accused. The smoke of their torment, not the torment, continues for ever and ever. It is the eternal fire which continues to burn, even when they are dead and gone in the second death (see Is 66).

Valiant is also wrong regarding mankind not being immortal, for every person who comes into the world exists forever.

you have of course scriptural evidence???? My Bible doesn't read that way.

Life and death are both states of conscious existence.

says who?

Eternal life being in the presence of God and all that He has prepared for us

that is what life means

and death is conscious existence in separation from God and punishment in the lake of fire.

that is contrary to the meaning of death which is loss of life. The Devil was thrown in ALIVE, the lost are thrown in DEAD.

Regarding annihilation, neither the words apollumi, apoliea nor olethros convey the idea of annihilation, but rather a complete loss of well being, ruination.

LOL Plato thought differently in his book on immortality. He used them to mean utter destruction, as opposed to immortality. Now whose Greek should I believe, his or yours LOL

Furthermore, why would annihilation be a just sentence for those who have sinned against the eternal God and who have rejected His Son. People already commit suicide because they think that when they do that they become non-existent. So, how could annihilation be a just judgment.

Actually the Bible teaches not annihilation but destruction. God's destruction is just punishment

If those who are thrown into the lake of fire are burnt up on impact, then there would be no need for everlasting fire.

Many were dead already. It just confirms their destruction. The 'fire' is everlasting because it is God's fire.

The "everlasting fire" is in reference to the status of those who are in it.

Then why does God distinguish between those who are thrown in alive (the Devil etc) and those thrown in dead,?

According to your theory it means the Devil had eternal life

Kind of hard for there to be a "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in outer darkness if you don't exist, wouldn't you say Valiant?

The weeping and gnashing of teeth comes before and at their judgment, not afterwards. The rich man in Hades (if we take it literally) suffered BEFORE he was finally destroyed in the lake of fire.

Go ahead now and scramble for an existing apologetic or rush to make one up.

No need, I use the FACTS.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

We are all children of God, which is to say immortal.

Funny that God forgot to mention it

Does Scriptures teach that the saints will have Eternal Life?
Does Scriptures teach that the wicked will have eternal punishment?
He mentions it just fine.

1). The Pentateuch gives the impression that death is the end.

Death is the end of the flesh. Death is also the permanent separation from God (second death)

2). Most of the Old Testament sees nothing beyond death.
3). Even what it does see is vague shadows which may well be parabolic.
4). Resurrection (as opposed to immortality) occurs only in Isaiah and Daniel.
5). Immortality occurs nowhere. It is surmised

Do a study on what Eternal Life means.

The spirit that is within us can't die, can't be killed, it will either be in Heaven or Hell for all eternity.

were do you get that idea from?

Do a study in Scriptures concerning ETERNAL LIFE and Eternal punishment, Hevean/Hell
Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.The flesh returns to dust, the spirit that sleeps in Christ rises to be with Jesus.

Satan was a child of God. demons are children of God. Angels are children of God. We are children of God.
This is so ridiculous it is unbelievable.

Did you Dad and Mom create you?
Who created satan? Who created demons? Who created Angels? Who created us humans? God.

The flesh that you reside in now, is mortal, it will die and return to dust from where it came from. But the spirit that is in you is the Breath of God, comes from God, use to live in Heaven for eons.

Scripture. And don't produce 'the spirit returning to God Who gave it', because that could mean its end .

Gen_3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job_34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psa_104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecc_3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Satan and demons, who were present in Heaven and worshipped God in Heaven for eons and eons, where all children of God and immortal.

They were not children of God as we mean children. They were of the nature of the Elohim. But they WERE eternal

Before the fall of Lucifer (devil) they were all called the children of God, but now after being cast out of Heaven, they are considered fallen children of God. God created all things, we are all His children.

Then greed was created by Lucifer, he desired to have what Jesus possessed, the THRONE of God, and tried to take it by recruiting other children of God to help him with his goal. satan and all those who chose to follow satan where then cast out of Heaven. And these became fallen children of God.

Lucifer was another name for the kings of Babylon,

Your point?

The Spirit that is in YOU, is immortal, it can't be killed, nor can it die.

Scripture which teaches that this is true of all men.?

Tell me, according to Scripture what MAN does not go to Heaven or to Hell?
Every human being on this planet will either go to Heaven for all eternity, or they will for all eternity be banned from Heaven (into a place referred to as HELL)

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave.com