Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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I'm still wait for someone to show me where it says that beaches cut themselves off the vine or that brother wander.
Johnny, was this what you were looking for?

James 5
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, [SUP]20 [/SUP]let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[SUP][f][/SUP] from death and cover a multitude of sins.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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Johnny, was this what you were looking for?

James 5
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, [SUP]20 [/SUP]let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[SUP][f][/SUP] from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Yes and no, yes that's what was quoted as saying that the wander was brother, but it's not saying that, it is addressing the brethren, but it is saying "if anyone among you" then "someone turns him back" then it says "he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul" by reading what it is saying the person that wander and is turned back is a sinner and a believer so he was not a brother. Because not everyone in the Church is a believer, there was a guy at the Church I used to go to and it was mentioned to me that he was not a believer, he would come to Church because of his wife. He began to do somethings that were more then questionable, not sure whatever happened to him.

Anyway, point being that not everyone that comes to Church is a believer, even more so now a days. Bit that was given as a proof text for losing ones salvation and I don't see it. Or where he implied that branches can cut themselves from the vine.
 
M

Merc

Guest
With all my shortfalls , His words resound in me like a raging storm. I am a new creature in Jesus created for good works which my Father prepared before the foundations of the universe that i should walk in them, and because He lives greater s He in me then he that's in this world for it is no longer I that lives but Christ in me therefore i can do all things through Jesus whom strengthens me even when i come up short at times and loose my way because My Lord loves me and will never let me go.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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With all my shortfalls , His words resound in me like a raging storm. I am a new creature in Jesus created for good works which my Father prepared before the foundations of the universe that i should walk in them, and because He lives greater s He in me then he that's in this world for it is no longer I that lives but Christ in me therefore i can do all things through Jesus whom strengthens me even when i come up short at times and loose my way because My Lord loves me and will never let me go.
Amen Merc.

I see you're new here.

You said that you can do all things through Christ who strenghthens you.
Amen again.

Some her believe Jesus works through you. Quite a difference.
This would mean that Jesus is responsible when you sin.

God bless you and keep walking with our Lord.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Some her believe Jesus works through you. Quite a difference.
This would mean that Jesus is responsible when you sin.
I think you may be misunderstanding what "things" are done by the Lords working through us. What you said here Fran is very wrong. Not worth the words written.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Some her believe Jesus works through you. Quite a difference.
This would mean that Jesus is responsible when you sin.
Does not Jesus work through us?
Surely we have the Holy Spirit, our helper the one who reveals God to us.

The Spirit also functions as fruit-producer in our lives. When He indwells us, He begins the work of harvesting His fruit in our lives—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. These are not works of our flesh, which is incapable of producing such fruit, but they are products of the Spirit’s presence in our lives.

If we sin Jesus is not responsible but we are.

Ephesians 4:25-32
Do Not Grieve the Spirit
Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil. Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

We grieve the Holy Spirit when we sin, the Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed.

No one can stand before God and blame him for our sin, he will reply "I gave you everything you needed no to"


 
Apr 30, 2016
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I think you may be misunderstanding what "things" are done by the Lords working through us. What you said here Fran is very wrong. Not worth the words written.
I agree.

But some here are aaaalllllll the way over to the puppet side.
This is NOT what Jesus working through us means.

It means that we are to do the work of the Kingdom while here on Earth.
It means that we are His hands and feet.
We are to do His work while here, with the help of the comforter.

It's impossible to speak doctrine when persons are repeating the same old idea over and over and when I'm told I don't understand because I don't agree with them.

I can't stay on this orum so no problem.

I do repeat for Johnny that correct doctrine will be learned from Chris.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Does not Jesus work through us?
Surely we have the Holy Spirit, our helper the one who reveals God to us.
Yes we do, amen, and thank you God :)

Lover.jpg
 
Mar 23, 2016
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FranC said:
Leaving aside Koinè Greek, which no one here knows, (Could you learn about Chritianity from a book? Like persons here try to do with Greek? I doubt it),
Well, I suppose you are now going to tell me that a person can come to an intimate relationship with God through observation of creation even though he/she is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).



FranC said:
my common sense tells me that Romans 1:19 says that WHAT is KNOWN about God is evident WITHIN THEM, for God MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM.

Just using common sense, what does it mean to know something so well that it's WITHIN you? What does it mean to YOU when God makes something EVIDENT to YOU?
My common sense tells me that when you change the word "them" (plural) to "you" (singular) you change Scripture to something which was never intended by the Author.



FranC said:
verse 20 says that since the beginning of the world (creation) His ETERNAL POWER, DIVINE NATURE have been CLEARLY SEEN,
being UNDERSTOOD through what has been made, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

verse 21: So even though they KNEW GOD, the did not HONOR HIM as GOD, or give THANKS.
And again, the word KNEW runs the gamut of awareness to intimate knowledge.

You place your money on "intimate knowlege" like you would "know" your mother, father, sibiling, spouse.

I place my money on "aware" like you might "know" Paul Hewson.



FranC said:
So...

Do I

Know what is evident about God within me?
Did GOD make it evident?
Was His eternal power clearly seen?
Was His divine nature clearly seen?
Did I understand this through what has been made?
...To the point that I am without excuse?
Did I Honor Him?
Did I give thanks?


See. No Greek necessary.
The bible is as plain as day, in English...
What you are doing is changing the whole section of Romans 1:18-32 to God's wrath being revealed toward only those who were at one time true believers but who have now rejected and walked away.

What about those who never come to a true faith in God? They now have an excuse because they never had a "true" faith in God?

Your "common sense" conclusion is lacking in credibility.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Sagart said:
They are all the same word, but different parts of speech!
Right. The Greek word ginōskō runs the gamut of "an awareness" through "full intimate knowledge" (and you know this, Sagart).

Just as I have explained to FranC, I might "know" someone famous because I read about them through media, or see them on television. But I do not know that person as well as I know someone I am intimately involved with (spouse, sibling, father, mother).
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
With all my shortfalls , His words resound in me like a raging storm. I am a new creature in Jesus created for good works which my Father prepared before the foundations of the universe that i should walk in them, and because He lives greater s He in me then he that's in this world for it is no longer I that lives but Christ in me therefore i can do all things through Jesus whom strengthens me even when i come up short at times and loose my way because My Lord loves me and will never let me go.
Careful some will try and undermine and make you doubt God's blessed assurance and love.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
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Right. The Greek word ginōskō runs the gamut of "an awareness" through "full intimate knowledge" (and you know this, Sagart).

Just as I have explained to FranC, I might "know" someone famous because I read about them through media, or see them on television. But I do not know that person as well as I know someone I am intimately involved with (spouse, sibling, father, mother).
Instead of explaining the truth to FranC, you posted false information,

I study Scripture. You disagree with what I have stated. That does not give you leave to assert (as you did in your Post #374) that I "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ I ] falsely believe".

In fact, one could point out that your unwillingness to even look at the difference between gnontes and ginōskō is due to your desire to "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ you ] falsely believe".
They are all the same word, but conjugated to express different parts of speech! γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω, the form of the word found in lexicons.

No, the word "Know" in verse 21 does not mean "Know in the heart and soul". The word "Know" in verse 21 means to perceive or realize. Can one look at the universe as shown in verse 20 (the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made) and come to the conclusion that there is a Creator? Yes.
The word ‘know’ in Rom. 1: 21 does not mean “to perceive or realize;” it means “to arrive at a knowledge of someone or something, know about, make acquaintance of” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

Examples of this usage include the following,

Rom. 1:21. διότι γνόντες τὸν Θεὸν οὐχ ὡς Θεὸν ἐδόξασαν ἢ εὐχαρίστησαν, ἀλλ᾿ ἐματαιώθησαν ἐν τοῖς διαλογισμοῖς αὐτῶν, καὶ ἐσκοτίσθη ἡ ἀσύνετος αὐτῶν καρδία·

Rom. 1:21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω. The form of the word found in lexicons. γινώσκω is used three times in John 14:7,

John 14:7. εἰ ἐγνώκειτέ με, καὶ τὸν πατέρα μου γνώκειτε ἄν. καὶ ἀπ᾿ ἄρτι γινώσκετε αὐτὸν καὶ ἑωράκατε αὐτόν.

John 14:7. “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” (NASB, 1995)


It is also used in John 17:3,

John 17:3 αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή, ἵνα γινώσκωσι σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν Θεὸν καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας ᾿Ιησοῦν Χριστόν.

John 17:3. “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (NASB, 1995)


It is also used in 2 Cor. 5:16,

2 Cor. 5:16 ῞Ωστε ἡμεῖς ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν οὐδένα οἴδαμεν κατὰ σάρκα· εἰ δὲ καὶ ἐγνώκαμεν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν, ἀλλὰ νῦν οὐκέτι γινώσκομεν.

2 Cor. 5:16. Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. (NASB, 1995)

To which you replied,

You [Sagart] have not provided the use of the word γνόντες gnontes in the above verse.

Here is what you have provided:

John 14:7. "If you had known [ἐγνώκειτέ – egnōkeite] Me, you would have known [ᾔδειτε›·– ēdeite] My Father also; from now on you know [γινώσκετε·– ginōskete] Him, and have seen Him." (NASB, 1995)

Not the same word as used in Rom 1:21 (γνόντες gnontes).
They are all the same word, but conjugated to express different parts of speech! γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω, the form of the word found in lexicons.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
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Careful some will try and undermine and make you doubt God's blessed assurance and love.
Please do not maliciously misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security as taught by the Early Church Fathers, everyone else up to the 16th century, and the large majority of Christians since then. The truth is that they ardently and enthusiastically teach God's blessed assurance and love for those Christians who continue to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who continue to believe Him who sent Jesus, who continue to obey the son, and who continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

John 5:24. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 20:31. “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” (NASB, 1995)

Hebrews 10:28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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The opposing group is just confused. And really it's not their fault to have been taught wrong. Calvinism has polluted the gospel to the point people pick and choose the beliefs they want the gospel to say. Some choose just OSAS while others only agree with total depravity. I say I don't know what Calvin was smoking but none of this is Hyper-grace or once saved always saved crap is in my bible.
So your Bible doesn't have in it John 6.39; 10.27-9; Titus 3.4-7; 1 Peter 1.2 and many more? I would get a new Bible if I were you:)

What is amazing is how creative people can twist scripture or try to put into context but leave out the parts that don't fit their belief. I used an HCSB study bible for a year or two. I just now got a new NIV study bible because most of the HCSB study bible I had was written by baptist and guess what doctrine was placed in the book of Romans? The Perseverance of the Saints aka OSAS. Did some more searching to find a lot of the commentary to be biased toward this belief.
Yes we noticed that you do :) Actually the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is clearly taught in rom 3.21-8.30. It doesn't require any bias. Whom He justified , them He also glorified.

I love my NIV study bible it's truthful and on interpreting certain hard scriptures it actually has all of the logical beliefs instead of being biased.
That's funny. I love it because it clearly teaches the eternal security of the true believer. Must be a different one LOL

What's weird is most of these people believe in free will but then for some strange reason thinks it no longer exists after accepting Christ.
well I believe in biased will. But even if I didn't, when Christ saves me I expect him to do it thoroughly. He saves me and keeps me saved, I merely respond.
 
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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Revelation 2v10b
10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Now what is plain to see is this:
-Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
-Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
-the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.


The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
Revelation 2v26 [SUP]26 [/SUP]And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne
Hebrews 10
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore do not cast away your confidence <faith/hope>,
which has great reward <eternal life>.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]For you have need of endurance <not a one trick pony. those who overcome. it takes endurance>,
so that after you have done the will of God
<who does God's will? Matthew 7v21>,
you may receive the promise
<eternal life>:

Here we have all the ingredients in one verse: We are to have faith (in Christ), not to cast away this faith, it will take endurance, you are to DO the will of God, and then you will inherit eternal life.

It's the bible in a verse. Amen.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Please do not maliciously misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security as taught by the Early Church Fathers, everyone else up to the 16th century, and the large majority of Christians since then. The truth is that they ardently and enthusiastically teach God's blessed assurance and love for those Christians who continue to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who continue to believe Him who sent Jesus, who continue to obey the son, and who continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

John 5:24. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 20:31. “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” (NASB, 1995)

Hebrews 10:28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
Hi Sagart,

Your post has confused me a little bit.

You say do not misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security.
As taught by the early church Fathers up to 16th Century and the large majority of Christians since then.
Then you say they teach Gods blessed assurance and love if we continue to believe in Jesus, in him who sent him, who continue to obey the son and who continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Then you post verses that talk about believing abs in doing so has eternal life and insulting grace.

I think I am confused because I don't know whether your saying belief saves or whether belief and obeying saves.
Not saying it's wrong to obey what Jesus has asked us to do. We should as beleivers do what Jesus has asked us to do.

My confusion has come from the verse John 3:36 that you posted.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (ESV)

But

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (NKJV)

See the difference ESV "whoever does not obey" NKV "He who does not believe"

Can you clarify for me what it is you are actually trying to convey.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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[SUP]James 5v11

11 [/SUP]Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful

- Job could have pulled the plug at any point. He could have heeded his wife's call to curse God and die. Yet he persevered through it all. God's mercy and compassion is upon those who endure.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Please do not maliciously misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security as taught by the Early Church Fathers, everyone else up to the 16th century, and the large majority of Christians since then.
We do not maliciously misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security. We say it is wrong. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all clearly taught eternal security, based on His faithfulness. The early fathers are notorious for not understanding the teaching of the Apostles so I would not lay too great a stress upon them. But the rest of your statement is false. You are following the Roman Catholic church


The truth is that they ardently and enthusiastically teach God's blessed assurance and love for those Christians who continue to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who continue to believe Him who sent Jesus, who continue to obey the son, and who continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ.
well we agree on that

John 5:24. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
HAS eternal life, HAS passed from death to life. Seems secure to me.

John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 20:31. “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” (NASB, 1995)
Both guarantee ETERNAL life. Seems good to me :)

Hebrews 10:28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Yes the Jews who were hovering about turning to Christ are clearly depicted. By not doing so they are treading under foot the Son of God and insulting the Spirit of grace. They had been 'sanctified under Old Testament worship and the blood of the Old Testament covenant. But it would all be to no good if they rejected Christ.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Sagart said:
Instead of explaining the truth to FranC, you posted false information,
Your accusation is completely unfounded. You disagree with my understanding and that is okay. And it is okay for you to say you disagree.

It is not okay for you to accuse me of falsifying Scripture.



Sagart said:
The word ‘know’ in Rom. 1: 21 does not mean “to perceive or realize;” it means “to arrive at a knowledge of someone or something, know about, make acquaintance of” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.
Let's take your understanding to its full conclusion (as I did in Post #489).

What you are saying is that those spoken of in Rom 1:21 are those who have come to an intimate relationship with God because according to you the word "knew" (Gr. gnontes) means "arrive at a knowledge of someone or something, know about, make acquaintance of" (as opposed to my understanding that gnontes means "to perceive or realize").

So you change the meaning of Romans 1:18 – 32 to read that only those who have known God intimately, those who are true believers yet reject Him, are the ones who are without excuse.

What about those who do not have an intimate relationship with God? They now have an excuse come judgment day?

Your understanding of what is written in Romans 1:18-32 is not correct.

All who reject God are without excuse, not just those who have come to an intimate knowledge of God (the definition you keep forcing upon those referred to in vss 19 and 21).

And, for the record, when one is born again and is sealed by that holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13), he/she falls under the purview of 1 Cor 3:15.

1 Corinthians 3:

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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[SUP]James 5v11

11 [/SUP]Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful

- Job could have pulled the plug at any point. He could have heeded his wife's call to curse God and die. Yet he persevered through it all. God's mercy and compassion is upon those who endure.
Of course he did. God always KNEW he would persevere. And He was kept by the power of God