Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[PeterJens]

There is a heirarchy of forgiveness

Conviction of sin - I am a sinner and need to sort things out, liable to judgement
Repentance - I am a sinner who wishes to stop sinning
Faith - I believe in Jesus and the cross I can find forgiveness
Confession - I publicly confess my sin and my faith
Cleansing - The blood washes me clean and empowers me to walk in righteousness
Obedience - Love springs forward in my heart as I start to learn to love all
Conscience - My conscience is a barometer of how I am doing
Purity - We walk in Holiness as the redeemed people of God

This is the walk with Jesus. Each of the above steps are embedded in scripture
and lived by each of the apostles. To change this is to change the faith.

Some oppose these steps.
They have set their hearts against the 8 steps of walking with God.
Each one has been changed and claimed religion distorted its meaning while they
are the ones who are attempting to corrupt and destroy the faith into a zapped
perfection reality and realisation of what you are as you walk.

There is a truth that we are heavenly born of God, remade and we become mature
people of God, but this is not a presumption, but a working through of this reality.

 

[Grace777x70]

Sometimes we think some truths are new but in reality they are not. Here is someone back in the 1800's that had a supposedly "heretical" understanding of grace in the form of our sins being forgiven and those sins were continually being washed by the blood of Jesus.

I was reading about a hymn writer from the 1800's called Frances Ridley Havergal. She wrote many hymns and knew Latin, French, German, Greek and Hebrew.

She also knew by heart the 4 gospels, epistles and the book of Revelation by the time she was 23 years old - yet she still lived in total defeat.

She thought she had "great wickedness in her heart" - because of religious traditions taught to her which is what humanistic belief systems believe. They think Christians are a "new evolution" and thus they need to create and maintain their own self-righteousness.

It wasn't until she was reading in the Greek that the present tense was used for 1 John 1:7 "...His blood cleanseth us from all sin".

She realized all her sins were forgiven by the blood of Jesus and thus she believed it and experienced peace and joy in her life because of this truth and lived a holier life.

Here is a direct QUOTE:

" Have we not been limiting 1 John 1:7 , by practically making it refer only to "remission of sins that are past" instead of taking the grand simplicity of "cleanseth from all sin"?

"All" is all; and as we may trust Him to cleanse us from the stain of past sins so we may trust Him to cleanse us from all present defilement; yes, all!

By refusing to take 1 John 1:7 in it's fullness, we will lose the fullness of it's application and power in our lives. It goes on cleansing , and I have no words to tell how my heart rejoices in it."

UNQUOTE:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zO...mplicity of "cleanseth from all sin"?&f=false

She got the revelation that all her sins were forgiven because she was in Christ and thus always in the Light and His blood continually cleansed her. She was able to walk free in Christ from that point on. Today she would be called a heretic and being in error by some for having this belief.

Believing the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ finished work on the cross and resurrection will change us as we grow in His grace. We grow in His grace by the "hearing of Christ Himself".

Here is a book for those interested in her life: Jennie Chappell, "Women Who Have Worked and Won: the life story of Mrs. Spurgeon, Mrs. Booth-Tucker, F.R. Havergal, and Ramabai," London: S.W. Partridge & Co. Ltd. 1904

 

[PeterJens]

If one can fall away, then some peoples faith is empty.

Imagine I say this bridge I have built can never fall down.
Why would I claim such a thing which is obviously not true?
Because my whole life depends on the bridge remaining secure so I would have not
choice but to believe this or leave the faith.

Now if the bridge was useful but other things were also important, then I would probably
be open to accept the bridge could collapse.

Now some believers are so emotionally dependent on a totally secure future with no conditions,
doubting it would essentially destroy them. So if every verse in scripture has an alternative
meaning to support their conviction, they will use it. This is just observational bias.

Now to know they are not doing this, they need to openly admit other interpretations and reasons
why they are taken. If after seeing the alternatives they still choose this interpretation it is a
true position rather than a blinkered one.

Unfortunately all the people who seem to hold this position talk about brain washing, reprogramming
themselves, revelation, without being able to see why an alternative interpretation might make better
sense. Underlying this they all have a legalistic OCD background where they were extreme legalists,
who saw themselves as ok by legalism, but then had a total rejection experience, which was resolved
with this new total acceptance and no failure future outlook.

To me it is so odd because both positions are alien to me, and I have no bias to either place and reject
them both.

But then ofcourse they desire to convert the world to this liberalism rather than to walking
in love and purity with Christ through the power of the cross.

 

[Grace777x70]

The gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection is really a mystery to the humanistic belief system which is really operating from the world's way of thinking.

The humanistic mindset doesn't see the new heart in Christ, they don't see the new creation created in righteousness and holiness and thus the gospel is still a mystery to them. They don't see the circumcision of Christ where the inner man in Christ is "cut away" from the flesh.

They need to create and maintain their own self-righteousness by what they do or don't do and thus nullify the very grace of God that is needed for real transformation by the Spirit of God. 2 Cor. 3:17-18.

Brethren - we are not redeemed until our next failure. The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ speaks of better things.

We have eternal redemption because of what Christ has already done and the fact that we are one spirit with Him. In Him we have eternal redemption through His blood - not by what we do or don't do.

Hebrews 9:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We have = present tense - present tense is always present tense. When tomorrow comes - it will be present tense then too.

Does this make us want to go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No! Of course not - why?

Because "knowing this truth" releases the grace of God in our lives to operate to produce His life in and through us. Jesus said "You shall know the truth and that truth shall make you free."

It's time to "repent and believe the gospel" like Jesus said in Mark 1:15 After all it is not called the "good news" for no reason.

We have a great and wondrous salvation but it is all in Christ and what He has already done. We receive this all by grace through faith. As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him in like manner.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Compare what is written above, with what follows:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

There is a distinction between those who received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved (meaning they were not saved) and those who do love the truth so that they are saved to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.


And reading further in 2 Thessalonians 2 (not 2 Tim), we come to this verse:


2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


So we see that there is an everlasting consolation. Everlasting is everlasting (Gr. aiōnian). This consolation is without end, never to cease.


And please note that it is our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God, even our Father, Who have given us this everlasting consolation.


And verse 17 tells us that They comfort our hearts and establish us in every good word and work.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Friends I have not followed this thread but be warned it is possible to fall away from the truth by following false doctrines and false teachers (Matt 24:24)

Actually Matthew 24:24 tells us that if it were possible the very elect would be deceived by false prophets:


Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


From Barnes Notes on the Bible:

If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect - So nearly would their pretended miracles resemble true miracles as to render it difficult to detect the imposture; so much so, that if it were possible they would persuade even true Christians that they were the Messiah. But that was not possible. His real friends would be too firmly established in the belief that he was the Christ to be wholly led away by others. Christians may be sometimes led far astray; they may be in doubt about some great doctrines of religion; they may be perplexed by the cavils and cunning craftiness of those who do not love the truth, but they cannot be entirely deceived and seduced from the Saviour. Our Saviour says that if this "were possible," it would be done then; but it was not possible.

 

[mailmandan]

Actually Matthew 24:24 tells us that if it were possible the very elect would be deceived by false prophets:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Amen! Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - "These charlatans will be so skilful that they will, if possible (ei dunaton), lead astray the very elect. The implication is that it is not possible."

 

[Grace777x70]

Actually Matthew 24:24 tells us that if it were possible the very elect would be deceived by false prophets:


Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


From Barnes Notes on the Bible:

This is a perfect example of leaving out the "context" of what is being said. "If it were possible".

This is not talking about Christians trying to learn how to walk by the Spirit so that they don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh and thus they get "cut off" from Christ. Such foolish religious nonsense that is.

Works-based and works-righteousness belief mindsets are always trying to get people to believe that our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell. This is without a doubt an anti-Christ belief system and it is anti-the gospel message of Christ Himself.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly." (2Pet 2:1-6)

God's Word tells us that it is possible to fall away from the Faith (truth) through false teachings that lead to ungodliness

Keep reading in 2 Peter 2:

2 Peter 2:

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished


We know from Genesis 18 that Abraham pleaded with God to spare Sodom. Sadly, there were not even 10 who believed living there. However, we know from 2 Peter 2:8 that Lot was a believer and God spared him. And verse 9 assures us that God knows how to deliver us out of temptations. This is a promise of God and we need to hold fast to these precious promises. God is faithful and He will do what He promises to do.

 

[mailmandan]

This is a perfect example of leaving out the "context" of what is being said. "If it were possible".

Amen! I once were an eternal IN-securist quote Acts 20:16 - "Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost." Implying that it's possible that Paul may reach Jerusalem by the day of Pentecost, just like it's possible that the elect will be deceived.

Depending on how the words "if possible" are used in a sentence determines how it's used. If I say "if possible" I will be at your house today by noon. Meaning it is possible that I will, but depending on the traffic or the weather, I may not. Now if I say, "if it were possible" I would have been to your house by noon, then it was not possible. Notice that the KJV translation says, "if it were possible" and the NIV says, "if that were possible."

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen! I once were an eternal IN-securist quote Acts 20:16 - "Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost." Implying that it's possible that Paul may reach Jerusalem by the day of Pentecost, just like it's possible that the elect will be deceived.

Depending on how the words "if possible" are used in a sentence determines how it's used. If I say "if possible" I will be at your house today by noon. Meaning it is possible that I will, but depending on the traffic or the weather, I may not. Now if I say, "if it were possible" I would have been to your house by noon, then it was not possible. Notice that the KJV translation says, "if it were possible" and the NIV says, "if that were possible."

I see...is it like this too..."If possible - the mail will arrive in time?"...lol..just kiddin' brother! All things are possible with God...

 

[Rhackley]

The issue is not whether he is still a child of the father... but whether the child is still alive unto the father or not.

Once he left the father, he was the same as being dead to the father because he broke relations with the father and refused to come back and be in a relationship with the father... even though the father still loved him and longed for him to come home again.

In the parable... the father did not change, the boy did.

Ya gotta keep up and quit that OSAS agenda that satan is trying to get people to buy into which is nothing new... it's just warmed over baptist teaching with better marketing these days.

If I may join in. My name is Rhackley, and I'm new to this blog, but I was interested in your conversation. I believe that when a son/daughter, leave the comfort and security of the father, they are still a child (son/daughter) of that father. The only difference is they have changed residence. No matter what decision that child has made in their heart, and then act on it, they are still related to that father. There is a saying in the world, "God loves the sinner, but He hates the sin." He don't stop loving us, He just hates our actions, that is against what He had taught us. That's like, if my son was to go and rob a bank and get caught, and he is put in jail. This don't stop him from being my son. He is just paying for his actions that he acted out and got caught. That don't stop me from loving him, and that don't stop him from being my son. It just causes me to love him more.