Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

Sagart · May 15, 2017

No, anything we do to attempt to be holy or righteous is obeying God!

2 Cor. 7:1. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

James 4:8. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 John 3:3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

Sagart · May 15, 2017

Colossians 1.21-23

Col. 1:21. Καὶ ὑμᾶς ποτε ὄντας ἀπηλλοτριωμένους καὶ ἐχθροὺς τῇ διανοίᾳ ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις τοῖς πονηροῖς,
Col, 1:22. νυνὶ δὲ ἀποκατήλλαξεν ἐν τῷ σώματι τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ διὰ τοῦ θανάτου, παραστῆσαι ὑμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους καὶ ἀνεγκλήτους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ,
Col. 1:23. εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει τεθεμελιωμένοι καὶ ἑδραῖοι καὶ μὴ μετακινούμενοι ἀπὸ τῆς ἐλπίδος τοῦ εὐαγγελίου οὗ ἠκούσατε, τοῦ κηρυχθέντος ἐν πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει τῇ ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανόν, οὗ ἐγενόμην ἐγὼ Παῦλος διάκονος.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (NASB, 1995)

On this passage, James D. G. Dunn writes,

The confidence in the effectiveness of the divine provision made for those estranged from God by their evil and for the blameworthy by Christ’s death is qualified by matching emphasis on human responsibility. Such emphasis on the need for persistence in Christian belief and conduct is a regular feature in Paul (e.g., Rom. 8:3, 13, 17; 11:22; 1 Cor. 9:27; 10:11-12; Gal. 5:4) and should not be ignored. Εἴ γε may denote confidence more than doubt (cf. its use in 2 Cor. 5:3; Eph. 3:2; 4:21), but final acceptance is nevertheless dependent on remaining in the faith.[SUP]1[/SUP]

[SUP]1[/SUP]Dunn, James D. G. The Epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon. A Commentary on the Greek Text. The New International Greek Testament Commentary series. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1996.

Meggido · May 15, 2017

Sagart said:

The verses you listed have nothing at all to do with attempting to be rightoeus or Holy. All of them have everything to do with relationship with him.

I will say it again, If you do anything in your own power or flesh in an attempt be holy or righteous you are practicing self-righteousness.

I know several that tell me, yep going to church makes you holy and righteous. If this were true we would not have any church splits.

I know several that tell me, yep tithing 10% and giving other offerings makes you holy and righteous. If that were true, churches would not be closing by the dozen each week.

When you come to understand that being holy and righteous is not any form of personal performance and is position, then the rubber meets the road and you become set apart.

This happens because you come into relationship with God and not into following the regulations with God. You desire to make the relationship fruitful and will not do anything that sacrifices the relationship.

Following the rules has never made a person holy or righteous, it only makes them religious.

Sagart · May 15, 2017

Meggido said:

1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. (NASB, 1995)

What is practicing righteousness if it is not “following the rules” as set down in the New Testament?

Chris1975 · May 15, 2017

[SUP]
Proverbs 28

13 [/SUP]He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

- let that sink in. Read it again.
- you think God's Word doesn't stand eternally?
- this is just as applicable to the New Testament as the Old.
- The only difference is that now instead of the blood of bulls (which could not cleanse our consciences), we have the sacrifical Lamb of God (who can wash our consciences clean). A better covenant.
- What the Law couldn't do, Christ did in the flesh. He condemned sin in the flesh.
- So....... [SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
- We still uphold the Law by Faith (Romans 3v31)
- We have been given the Spirit of God to live victoriously (including over sin) And just so that you are not confused here, that means stopping. Not some fictional story that you tell yourself that your sinning is "not really sinning".

I repeat the scripture above, for effect:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

- You say you have God's mercy? That's good. Now......
- Have you confessed your sins?
- Have you forsaken your sins?
- No?? Do you think you have God's mercy?
- Do you honestly believe God grants mercy to someone who is neither willing to confess, nor forsake his sins? Would God contradict His own Word?

Meggido · May 15, 2017

Sagart said:

So what rules do you follow in the NT?

If you love God love others and love yourself that is covering it right? This is what Jesus said.

Does that make us holy, righteous or obedient?

Is righteousness personal performance or position?

reneweddaybyday · May 15, 2017

Stephen63 said:

Paul was not speaking of being "rejected for eternal life".

Paul was speaking of attaining a crown:

1 Corinthians 9:

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible [crown].

When we stand before the bēma, crowns will be given to believers ---

1 Cor 9:25 – incorruptible crown.

2 Tim 4:8 – crown of righteousness.

1 The 2:19 – crown of rejoicing.

James 1:12 – crown of life.

1 Peter 5:4 – crown of glory.

That is why in 1 Cor 3:14-15 the believer receives a reward or suffers loss, although the believer him/herself is saved. We either receive a crown as a reward or we suffer loss of a crown.

It is not eternal life that is lost. It is a crown that is lost if/when we fall short. In 1 Cor 9, the incorruptible crown is awarded to those who exhibit self control/restraint (that's the meaning of the word "temperate" in 1 Cor 9:25). The believer who keeps his/her body under subjection when he/she has preached to others, will not be rejected at the time he/she stands before the bēma.

reneweddaybyday · May 15, 2017

stonesoffire said:

Yep.......

Meggido · May 15, 2017

Chris1975 said:

[SUP]
Proverbs 28

13 [/SUP]He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

- let that sink in. Read it again.
- you think God's Word doesn't stand eternally?
- this is just as applicable to the New Testament as the Old.
- The only difference is that now instead of the blood of bulls (which could not cleanse our consciences), we have the sacrifical Lamb of God (who can wash our consciences clean). A better covenant.
- What the Law couldn't do, Christ did in the flesh. He condemned sin in the flesh.
- So....... [SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
- We still uphold the Law by Faith (Romans 3v31)
- We have been given the Spirit of God to live victoriously (including over sin) And just so that you are not confused here, that means stopping. Not some fictional story that you tell yourself that your sinning is "not really sinning".

I repeat the scripture above, for effect:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

- You say you have God's mercy? That's good. Now......
- Have you confessed your sins?
- Have you forsaken your sins?
- No?? Do you think you have God's mercy?
- Do you honestly believe God grants mercy to someone who is neither willing to confess, nor forsake his sins? Would God contradict His own Word?

Oh let me tell you Chris,I am telling no fictional story. Since righteousness & Holiness are positions and not worked for, it gives me choice over SIN, and SIN does not have dominion over me. The old man was crucified and then buried with Christ and the new man is raised into righteousness.

I am no longer a slave to sin, but freed from sin, but alive to God through Christ and a slave to righteousness.

Chris1975 · May 15, 2017

Meggido said:

Right. And therefore a mindset of holiness is maintained, and your actions/behaviour/obedience flows from this. You conscience is cleansed by the blood of the lamb, and you no longer have the desires to fulfill the lusts of the flesh for you truly have victory.

If, not when, but IF you sin, we have an Advocate before the Father, Jesus Christ who intercedes on our behalf. Maintaining a repentant heart and mind is key to ensuring we abide in Him. Life in the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

This we believe by Faith. It's this Faith that overcomes the world.

Stephen63 · May 15, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

You didn't read it all:

26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Many have supposed that the word "cast-away" here refers to those who had entered the lists, and had contended, and who had then been examined as to the manner in which they had conducted the contest, and had been found to have departed from the rules of the games, and who were then rejected. But this interpretation is too artificial and unnatural. The simple idea of Paul is, that he was afraid that he should be disapproved, rejected, cast off; that it would appear, after all, that he had no religion, and would then be cast away as unfit to enter into heaven.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
lest, while he preached to others, he himself should be a castaway: from whence we may observe, that Paul thought such a thing possible, that one who all his life had been preaching to others, to bring them to heaven, might himself be thrown into hell at last.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from alpha (as a neg. prefix) and dokimos
Definition
not standing the test, rejected
NASB Translation
depraved (1), disqualified (1), fail the test (2), rejected (1), unapproved (1), worthless (2).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
castaway, rejected, reprobate.From a (as a negative particle) and dokimos; unapproved, i.e. Rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Come out from listening to liberal teachers & do your own studying.

reneweddaybyday · May 15, 2017

Stephen63 said:

For every commentary you have which states Paul was afraid he would be "unfit to enter into heaven", there is commentary which states the verse relates to losing the incorruptible crown for which Paul was contending ... just as shown in the context.

I explained the meaning of the verse. You disagree. We can leave it at that.

Sagart · May 16, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

1 Cor. 9:22. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self- control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

What did Paul preach? He preached the gospel—“ the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16). In 1 Cor. 9:22 he writes that he became “all things to all men, so that [he] may by all means save some.” In verse 23, he writes that he does “all things for the sake of the gospel, so that [he] may become a fellow partaker of it.” He then presents to his readers analogies from sports, and sums up his discourse by writing that he disciplines his body and makes it his slave, so that, after he has preached to others, he will not be disqualified.

Disqualified from what—from a foot race? No, disqualified from salvation.

Grace777x70 · May 16, 2017

This is nonsense. This is saying that those who do not fulfill their ministry are kicked out of Christ. This is saying those that die before they finish their ministry are doomed for hell. Rubbish. It's a violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and is also a violation of the nature and character of our Father.

The gospel is this for salvation:

He love, He gave, we believed, we live.

All because of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are one spirit with Him. In Him - we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Jesus said that they Holy Spirit will be in us believers forever. John 14:16

The real question should be : Is Jesus a liar? Everyone needs to answer this for themselves.

Me, I believe Him and what He has done. I believe the Father when He said that He has qualified us because of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

valiant · May 16, 2017

Stephen63 said:

You didn't read it all:

26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Many have supposed that the word "cast-away" here refers to those who had entered the lists, and had contended, and who had then been examined as to the manner in which they had conducted the contest, and had been found to have departed from the rules of the games, and who were then rejected. But this interpretation is too artificial and unnatural. The simple idea of Paul is, that he was afraid that he should be disapproved, rejected, cast off; that it would appear, after all, that he had no religion, and would then be cast away as unfit to enter into heaven.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
lest, while he preached to others, he himself should be a castaway: from whence we may observe, that Paul thought such a thing possible, that one who all his life had been preaching to others, to bring them to heaven, might himself be thrown into hell at last.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from alpha (as a neg. prefix) and dokimos
Definition
not standing the test, rejected
NASB Translation
depraved (1), disqualified (1), fail the test (2), rejected (1), unapproved (1), worthless (2).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
castaway, rejected, reprobate.From a (as a negative particle) and dokimos; unapproved, i.e. Rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Come out from listening to liberal teachers & do your own studying.

yes lol and avoid these out of date commentaries which add their own ideas to the text,

valiant · May 16, 2017

Sagart said:

1 Cor. 9:22. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self- control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

What did Paul preach? He preached the gospel—“ the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16). In 1 Cor. 9:22 he writes that he became “all things to all men, so that [he] may by all means save some.” In verse 23, he writes that he does “all things for the sake of the gospel, so that [he] may become a fellow partaker of it.” He then presents to his readers analogies from sports, and sums up his discourse by writing that he disciplines his body and makes it his slave, so that, after he has preached to others, he will not be disqualified.

Disqualified from what—from a foot race? No, disqualified from salvation.

so which of the elect mentioned in John 6.39 does He lose?

Sagart · May 16, 2017

valiant said:

The linguist and Bible Scholar Adam Clarke very accurately wrote, “It is the will of God that every soul who believes should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal. But he wills this continuance in salvation, without purposing to force the persons so to continue. God may will a thing to be, without willing that it shall be.”

Moreover, in John 17:12, Jesus, speaking to His Father, says that His Father gave Judas to Him, but that Judas was lost!

12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” (NASB, 1995)

reneweddaybyday · May 16, 2017

Sagart said:

Disqualified from receiving the incorruptible crown reserved for those who are temperate (self-controlled) in their calling to whatever God has called them to do.

In the case of Paul, he was called to be an apostle (Rom 1:1, 1 Cor 1:1, 2 Cor 1:1, Gal 1:1, Eph 1:1, Col 1:1, 1 Tim 1:1, 1 Tim 2:7, Titus 1:1). That was his function within the body of Christ.

In 1 Cor 9, Paul responded to those who questioned his apostleship:

1 Corinthians 9:

1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this

People were examining Paul --- questioning his calling as an apostle. So Paul went through his rights and his obligations as an apostle.

Paul was not speaking of his salvation in 1 Cor 9. Paul spoke only of his calling (or ministry) after having received salvation.

You completely miss the point when you change the context from Paul's fulfillment of his calling as an apostle to Paul losing his salvation. That issue is addressed earlier in Paul's writing to the Corinthian church:

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Stephen63 · May 16, 2017

valiant said:

If everyone took your advice, they'd all be idiots.

valiant · May 17, 2017

Sagart said:

Should I believe Adam Clarke or Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ said that 'this is the Father's will that sent me that of all that He has given Me I should lose NOTHING.' I plump for Jesus Christ.

Jesus was NOT saying that Judas had been given to Him by the Father. Indeed He knew from the beginning who would betray Him, and said that he was a demon. 'But the son of Perdition' confirms this and was obviously an exclusion clause. Or do you believe Jesus Christ contradicted Himself?

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member