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Thread: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
    If everyone took your advice, they'd all be idiots.
    maybe they don't just swallow them whole?

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    Jesus was NOT saying that Judas had been given to Him by the Father. Indeed He knew from the beginning who would betray Him, and said that he was a demon. 'But the son of Perdition' confirms this and was obviously an exclusion clause. Or do you believe Jesus Christ contradicted Himself?
    Amen! John 13:18 states - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' Was Jesus ignorant to the fact that Judas would not bear fruit that remains and was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him? (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). Obviously not.

    Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

    Syllogism

    1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
    2. Judas was not kept.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

    Or, this way.

    1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
    2. Judas is lost.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.
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    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    This is nonsense. This is saying that those who do not fulfill their ministry are kicked out of Christ. This is saying those that die before they finish their ministry are doomed for hell. Rubbish. It's a violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and is also a violation of the nature and character of our Father.
    This is an argument against an imaginary doctrine taught by imaginary people. The doctrine of apostasy, the doctrine of falling away from the Christian faith, and the subject of this thread, is that Christians who fail to abide (μένω) in Christ loose their salvation. This doctrine is taught throughout the New Testament , and is prefigured throughout the Old Testament where the Israelites are delivered to utter destruction for failing to abide in the safety of the hand of Yahweh (יְהֹוָה) [Jehovah in the ASV]. Compare John 10:28.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

    Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
    13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    In the Greek New Testament, Eph. 1:3-14 is one sentence, and that one sentence is a doxology—a type of eulogy. Because eulogies are never meant to be objective and never tell the whole truth but only one side of the truth, they are never used to establish Christian doctrine. Moreover, the seal spoken of in this context is the seal of ownership, guaranteeing the owner of the seal the right to keep, sell, exchange, or give away the property or goods bearing his seal. Therefore, to suggest that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is like being sealed in a Mason jar is biblically incorrect. The only thing that the seal does is to guarantee that we who are actively believing in Christ as our Lord and our Savior belong to the King. We do NOT own the King; the King owns us—and as our owner, He is free to do with us as He pleases. Therefore, for any Christian to claim that the King is obligated to keep us if we fall into disbelief and willful disobedience is not only to make an audaciously insubordinate claim—it is to outright deny of the holiness and majesty of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    Jesus said that they Holy Spirit will be in us believers forever. John 14:16
    John 14:15. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
    16. “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;”

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    The real question should be : Is Jesus a liar? Everyone needs to answer this for themselves.
    Jesus is not a liar! The problem is that some people and some organizations abuse Him and make a mockery of Him my misquoting Him to suit their purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    Me, I believe Him and what He has done. I believe the Father when He said that He has qualified us because of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Colossians 1:12-13 (NASB)
    12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

    13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
    Yes, God the Father “has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
    13. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
    14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    Our part is to believe Him and His only begotten Son, and to abide (μένω, i.e., remain) in His Son, and to keep His Son’s commandments.

    5. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
    6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
    7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
    8. “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
    9. “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
    10. “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”

    If we fail to abide in Christ and to keep his commandments, every promise that He made to faithful and obedient believers is made void!

    (All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Amen! John 13:18 states - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' Was Jesus ignorant to the fact that Judas would not bear fruit that remains and was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him? (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). Obviously not.

    Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

    Syllogism

    1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
    2. Judas was not kept.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

    Or, this way.

    1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
    2. Judas is lost.
    3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.
    My father gave me a bunch of bananas (12). One of them was "off".

    According to your interpretation, my father never gave me 12 bananas. He only gave me 11.

    ---------

    Judas was given, so that the scriptures are fulfilled. The purpose of Christ was to go to the cross. The purpose of Judas was to betray Him. Election still stands. Here's more evidence: John 6v70 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

    Judas was always named with the 12 throughout Jesus' ministry. Judas was with the other disciples, going out, performing miracles in Jesus' name. The disciples did not themselves know that Judas was the betrayer as they asked Jesus who it was that was to betray him. They had no cooking clue up to that point.

    The bible says of Judas in John 6v64 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

    That's why Jesus only prayed to the Father for those who believe in him (John 17v20). Judas fell away from faith in Christ. Luke 22v3 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.

    Judas' faith was not faith, because his deeds were evil.
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    My father gave me a bunch of bananas (12). One of them was "off".

    According to your interpretation, my father never gave me 12 bananas. He only gave me 11.
    Once again, in John 17:12, we read - Those whom You have Me I have kept. Was Judas kept? NO. Were the 11 remaining disciples kept? YES. Therefore, Judas was not given to Christ by the Father. *Also see John 6:39 - John 6:39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. Judas was not given.

    Judas was given, so that the scriptures are fulfilled.
    No, Jesus "chose" Judas, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me. It does not say Judas was given to Christ by the Father and those who were given were kept. *Judas was not kept.

    The purpose of Christ was to go to the cross. The purpose of Judas was to betray Him. Election still stands. Here's more evidence:
    Judas was obviously not part of the elect.

    John 6v70 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
    Jesus explained why He chose Judas in John 13:18 and it wasn't because Judas was part of the elect. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11) and Jesus knew it all along.

    Judas was always named with the 12 throughout Jesus' ministry. Judas was with the other disciples, going out, performing miracles in Jesus' name.
    Only because Jesus gave them authority to do so. In Matthew 10:1, we read - Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Does this mean that Judas was saved? NO. Does it mean that these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were saved? NO.

    The disciples did not themselves know that Judas was the betrayer as they asked Jesus who it was that was to betray him. They had no cooking clue up to that point.
    That's because to them, Judas looked like the real deal, (just like other wolves in sheep's clothing today) BUT Jesus knew his heart. What does scripture say about Judas?

    1: Judas was a devil. John 6:70-71
    2: Judas was a traitor. Luke 6:16
    3: Judas was a betrayer. Multiple scriptures.
    4. Judas was a thief and didn't care for the poor. John 12:6
    5. Judas was spiritually unclean. John 13:11
    6. Judas is described as the son of perdition. John 17:12

    The bible says of Judas in John 6v64 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
    Good description of Judas and Jesus knew this from the beginning.

    That's why Jesus only prayed to the Father for those who believe in him (John 17v20). Judas fell away from faith in Christ.
    Judas never had saving faith in Christ (John 6:64-71). He fell away from the ministry, in which his heart was never truly a part of because he was an unbelieving, unclean devil.

    Luke 22v3 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.
    The true colors of a devil are showing here in Judas.

    Judas' faith was not faith, because his deeds were evil.
    Exactly!
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    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    My father gave me a bunch of bananas (12). One of them was "off".

    According to your interpretation, my father never gave me 12 bananas. He only gave me 11.
    So he gave you one knowing that it was bad? A poor kind of father.

    As Judas was known to Jesus as the one who would betray Him from the beginning he was hardly one given to Him by the Father. He said of them 'I will not cast them out for any reason whatsoever' (John 6.37).


    Judas was given, so that the scriptures are fulfilled.
    He was not 'given'. Of them Jesus promised that 'I will lose NOTHING'. Would you make Jesus a liar?

    The purpose of Christ was to go to the cross. The purpose of Judas was to betray Him.
    Thus he was not GIVEN by the Father to Jesus. Rather he was allowed in.

    Election still stands.
    Yes and Judas was not one of the elect.

    Here's more evidence: John 6v70 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
    Evidence that he was not one of the elect, and was not given (entrusted) to Jesus by the Father. He was an outsider. And Jesus knew it.


    Judas was always named with the 12 throughout Jesus' ministry. Judas was with the other disciples, going out, performing miracles in Jesus' name. The disciples did not themselves know that Judas was the betrayer as they asked Jesus who it was that was to betray him. They had no cooking clue up to that point.
    Which was one reason that Jesus pointed out that many would do miracles in His Name and yet be lost.

    The bible says of Judas in John 6v64 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
    Judas was NOT a believer. He never belonged to Christ. What more need be said?


    That's why Jesus only prayed to the Father for those who believe in him (John 17v20).
    Yes those given to Him.

    Judas fell away from faith in Christ. Luke 22v3 3
    No he didn't. He never believed as Jesus pointed out..
    Then Satan entered Judas
    , surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.

    Judas' faith was not faith, because his deeds were evil.
    Yes, Judas never 'believed'. He was never one of Christ's own. He was not of those 'given' by the Father. QED.
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagart
    In the Greek New Testament, Eph. 1:3-14 is one sentence, and that one sentence is a doxology—a type of eulogy. Because eulogies are never meant to be objective and never tell the whole truth but only one side of the truth, they are never used to establish Christian doctrine.
    The letter to the Ephesians consists of doctrine as to the spiritual blessings bestowed upon the believer (chapters 1 – 3) and doctrine concerning our living in light of those spiritual blessings (chapters 4 – 6).

    To proclaim that no doctrine is established in Eph 1:3-14 negates the understanding that all blessings are bestowed upon the believer in our Lord Jesus Christ. These verses set forth God's purpose in Himself concerning Christ. In these verses, the believer finds him/herself:


    Vs 3 – blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ;

    Vs 4 – chosen in the Lord Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world;

    Vs 5 – adopted as children according to God's good pleasure (again by our Lord Jesus Christ);

    Vs 6 – made accepted in the beloved (Jesus Christ) to the praise of the glory of God;

    Vs 7 – redeemed (made free through the payment of a ransom) through the blood of Christ, and sins forgiven according to the riches (riches, not stinginess) of God's grace;

    Vs 8 – all these blessings have abounded toward us according to God's wisdom and prudence;

    Vs 9 – the mystery of God's will has been made known to us according to God's good pleasure which He purposed in Himself;

    Vs 10 – in fullness of time, God will gather together in one all things in Christ;

    Vs 11 – we have obtained an inheritance in Christ and God has worked all this out according to His own purpose as He has willed;

    Vs 12 – those who first trusted in Christ were considered the praise of His glory;

    Vs 13 – we have trusted in the same Christ. After we hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, we also trust in Christ, and we are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise;

    Vs 14 – the holy Spirit of promise is the earnest (Greek arrabōn – a down payment guaranteeing that the full amount will subsequently be paid). The holy Spirit of promise we received is only a portion of what we will have and be at the time of the redemption of the purchased possession. Who is the purchased possession? The born again believer!


    These truths are not things to be swept aside as a "doxology—a type of eulogy" which "are never meant to be objective and never tell the whole truth but only one side of the truth, they are never used to establish Christian doctrine".

    These truths are foundational to our understanding who we are in our Lord Jesus Christ as we await His return and they are the bedrock upon which we stand in order to follow the instruction laid out in the following chapters of the letter to the Ephesians.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sagart
    Moreover, the seal spoken of in this context is the seal of ownership, guaranteeing the owner of the seal the right to keep, sell, exchange, or give away the property or goods bearing his seal. Therefore, to suggest that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is like being sealed in a Mason jar is biblically incorrect. The only thing that the seal does is to guarantee that we who are actively believing in Christ as our Lord and our Savior belong to the King. We do NOT own the King; the King owns us—and as our owner, He is free to do with us as He pleases. Therefore, for any Christian to claim that the King is obligated to keep us if we fall into disbelief and willful disobedience is not only to make an audaciously insubordinate claim—it is to outright deny of the holiness and majesty of God.
    The seal denotes ownership and separates us, sets us apart for as belonging to God.

    In your scenario you have God sending His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to die on the cross in order for God to then set us apart so that He can "sell, exchange, or give away" that which cost His Son His life? Pure snake oil you're peddling there, Sagart (imho).
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by reneweddaybyday View Post
    The letter to the Ephesians consists of doctrine as to the spiritual blessings bestowed upon the believer (chapters 1 – 3) and doctrine concerning our living in light of those spiritual blessings (chapters 4 – 6).

    To proclaim that no doctrine is established in Eph 1:3-14 negates the understanding that all blessings are bestowed upon the believer in our Lord Jesus Christ. These verses set forth God's purpose in Himself concerning Christ. In these verses, the believer finds him/herself:


    Vs 3 – blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ;

    Vs 4 – chosen in the Lord Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world;

    Vs 5 – adopted as children according to God's good pleasure (again by our Lord Jesus Christ);

    Vs 6 – made accepted in the beloved (Jesus Christ) to the praise of the glory of God;

    Vs 7 – redeemed (made free through the payment of a ransom) through the blood of Christ, and sins forgiven according to the riches (riches, not stinginess) of God's grace;

    Vs 8 – all these blessings have abounded toward us according to God's wisdom and prudence;

    Vs 9 – the mystery of God's will has been made known to us according to God's good pleasure which He purposed in Himself;

    Vs 10 – in fullness of time, God will gather together in one all things in Christ;

    Vs 11 – we have obtained an inheritance in Christ and God has worked all this out according to His own purpose as He has willed;

    Vs 12 – those who first trusted in Christ were considered the praise of His glory;

    Vs 13 – we have trusted in the same Christ. After we hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, we also trust in Christ, and we are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise;

    Vs 14 – the holy Spirit of promise is the earnest (Greek arrabōn – a down payment guaranteeing that the full amount will subsequently be paid). The holy Spirit of promise we received is only a portion of what we will have and be at the time of the redemption of the purchased possession. Who is the purchased possession? The born again believer!


    These truths are not things to be swept aside as a "doxology—a type of eulogy" which "are never meant to be objective and never tell the whole truth but only one side of the truth, they are never used to establish Christian doctrine".

    These truths are foundational to our understanding who we are in our Lord Jesus Christ as we await His return and they are the bedrock upon which we stand in order to follow the instruction laid out in the following chapters of the letter to the Ephesians.
    Not true, as already explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by reneweddaybyday View Post
    The seal denotes ownership and separates us, sets us apart for as belonging to God.

    In your scenario you have God sending His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to die on the cross in order for God to then set us apart so that He can "sell, exchange, or give away" that which cost His Son His life? Pure snake oil you're peddling there, Sagart (imho).
    Not true, as already explained.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagart View Post
    This is an argument against an imaginary doctrine taught by imaginary people. The doctrine of apostasy, the doctrine of falling away from the Christian faith, and the subject of this thread, is that Christians who fail to abide (μένω) in Christ loose their salvation. This doctrine is taught throughout the New Testament , and is prefigured throughout the Old Testament where the Israelites are delivered to utter destruction for failing to abide in the safety of the hand of Yahweh (יְהֹוָה) [Jehovah in the ASV]. Compare John 10:28.
    The Israelites were not saved. Only the true elect of Israel *(Romans 9.6) .

    Nor are all outward Christians. Only the true elect among them. And they are written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

    Of whom Jesus promised:

    That of all which He has given Me I should lose NOTHING (John 6.39)

    They shall NEVER perish and none shall pluck them from My hand (John 10.28).


    In the Greek New Testament, Eph. 1:3-14 is one sentence, and that one sentence is a doxology—a type of eulogy
    It is not a doxology nor a type of eulogy. It is a description of the spiritual blessings in Christ.

    . Because eulogies are never meant to be objective and never tell the whole truth but only one side of the truth, they are never used to establish Christian doctrine.
    So anything we do not like we call a eulogy?

    Moreover, the seal spoken of in this context is the seal of ownership, guaranteeing the owner of the seal the right to keep, sell, exchange, or give away the property or goods bearing his seal.
    But the seal of GOD guarantees that they are His own. He does not sell or give away His own. He cherishes them in Christ.

    Therefore, to suggest that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is like being sealed in a Mason jar is biblically incorrect.
    I know it is far more wonderful than that, they are sealed until the Day of Redemption.

    The only thing that the seal does is to guarantee that we who are actively believing in Christ as our Lord and our Savior belong to the King.
    The only thing? But yes it guarantees that we belong to the king Who said 'of whom I shall lose NOTHING'.

    We do NOT own the King; the King owns us—and as our owner, He is free to do with us as He pleases.
    And He pleases to save us.

    Therefore, for any Christian to claim that the King is obligated to keep us if we fall into disbelief and willful disobedience is not only to make an audaciously insubordinate claim—it is to outright deny of the holiness and majesty of God.
    and I thought it was to honour the promises of God.


    John 14:15. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16. “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;”
    Amen. He gives us the Spirit. We keep His commandments as far as we are able. He works in us to will and to do. (Phil 2.13)


    Jesus is not a liar!
    Then believe His promise, 'that of all that He has given Me I should lose NOTHING.'

    The problem is that some people and some organizations abuse Him and make a mockery of Him by misquoting Him to suit their purpose
    well its time you stopped!!!



    Yes, God the Father “has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
    13. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
    14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    Our part is to believe Him and His only begotten Son, and to abide (μένω, i.e., remain) in His Son, and to keep His Son’s commandments.
    Amen, so He ensures that we do.

    5. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
    6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
    7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
    8. “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
    9. “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
    10. “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
    Yes we abide in the vine as Christians. Others do not abide because they are only nominal Christians. Jesus was well aware that He had many disciples who were only nominal.

    If we fail to abide in Christ and to keep his commandments, every promise that He made to faithful and obedient believers is made void!
    This must be news to Him. Will you tell Him or shall I?
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagart View Post
    Not true, as already explained.
    Ephesians 1:12-13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

    International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

    God by His Spirit indicates who are His, as the owner sets his seal on his property; and just as documents are sealed up until the proper time for opening them, so Christians are sealed up by the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption" (Eph. 1:13; Eph. 4:30; 2Co. 1:22).

    Question: "What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?"

    Answer: The Holy Spirit is referred to as the "deposit," "seal," and "earnest" in the hearts of Christians (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). The Holy Spirit is God's seal on His people, His claim on us as His very own. The Greek word translated "earnest" in these passages is arrhabōn which means "a pledge," that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest. The gift of the Spirit to believers is a down payment on our heavenly inheritance, which Christ has promised us and secured for us at the cross. It is because the Spirit has sealed us that we are assured of our salvation. No one can break the seal of God.

    The Holy Spirit is given to believers as a "first installment" to assure us that our full inheritance as children of God will be delivered. The Holy Spirit is given to us to confirm to us that we belong to God who grants to us His Spirit as a gift, just as grace and faith are gifts (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the gift of the Spirit, God renews and sanctifies us. He produces in our hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are evidence that we are accepted by God, that we are regarded as His adopted children, that our hope is genuine, and that our redemption and salvation are sure in the same way that a seal guarantees a will or an agreement. God grants to us His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that we are His forever and shall be saved in the last day. The proof of the Spirit's presence is His operations on the heart which produce repentance, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), conformity to God’s commands and will, a passion for prayer and praise, and love for His people. These things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption.

    So it is through the Holy Spirit and His teachings and guiding power that we are sealed and confirmed until the day of redemption, complete and free from the corruption of sin and the grave. Because we have the seal of the Spirit in our hearts, we can live joyfully, confident of our sure place in a future that holds unimaginable glories.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-seal.html
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    In practical church governance we are taught

    1. confront people who are sin
    2. command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer

    If people rebel against correction to exercise expulsion

    But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
    1 Cor 5:11

    So those who apostate there is a clear road to walk.
    It is obvious that whatever people believe about the status of people
    in the body of Christ we are to beyond reproach.

    But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
    Eph 5:3

    Now where people stand personally before God is their affair, but how
    the church deals with sin and apostacy is also clear.
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    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    In practical church governance we are taught

    1. confront people who are sin
    2. command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer

    If people rebel against correction to exercise expulsion
    Agreed, so that they be not condemned with the world.

    But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
    1 Cor 5:11
    Who CLAIMS to be a brother or sister

    So those who apostate there is a clear road to walk. It is obvious that whatever people believe about the status of people in the body of Christ we are to beyond reproach
    .

    no one has denied this.

    But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
    Eph 5:3
    And so they are.

    Now where people stand personally before God is their affair, but how the church deals with sin and apostacy is also clear.
    Sooo?

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    If we heeded 1 Cor. 5:11 - there would be a few of people that we should not be associating with here in CC. "Slanderers" of those in the body of Christ are in same lists as the homosexual lifestyle.

    Thank God there are only a select few that are doing this.
    The new man in Christ - the new creation that is created in righteousness and

    holiness hears the heart voice of the Spirit and not an old head noise of the letter

    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

    know God's heart and so they erred in really understanding what the

    scriptures were saying.


    The Lord wants us to look through His eyes and to live from His heart towards

    people, towards Him and towards ourselves as well.

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    Ephesians 1:13 – 14 In whom [our Lord Jesus Christ (vs 12)] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


    After hearing the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, the born again one believes in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. At that moment, the believer is born again and sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

    The holy Spirit of promise is what is spoken of in OT prophecies and the holy Spirit of promise seals the believer. The holy Spirit places an imprint on our hearts which identifies the believer as belonging to God.

    The holy Spirit of promise is then described as being the earnest of our inheritance. The earnest is a down payment --- only a portion and the holy Spirit of promise stands as the guarantee that the whole inheritance shall one day be received by the believer.

    The ramification of this truth is that the believer possesses now, in this lifetime, a portion of the life he/she is to have in the future. The inheritance we await in the future is not different than the earnest of the Spirit we have been given. The inheritance we await in the future is more of the same. The earnest of the Spirit is a foretaste of that life we will enjoy in eternity.

    The earnest of the Spirit is given to each born again believer until the redemption of the purchased possession. Has the purchased possession been redeemed in our day and time? No.

    Since the redemption of the purchased possession has not taken place, and the earnest of the Spirit is given until that time, that means we still have the earnest of the Spirit.

    The earnest of the Spirit is not taken away.

    The seal of the holy spirit of promise is not sold, exchanged, or given away as some would have us believe.

    I encourage all believers to study the earnest of the Spirit (the arrabon). It is such an awesome truth to understand. I wish Angela would explain the earnest to us. She would be so much better at communicating this truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    The Israelites were not saved. Only the true elect of Israel *(Romans 9.6) .
    1 Corinthians 10:1-12

    1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
    2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
    4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
    5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
    6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
    7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
    8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
    9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
    10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
    11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
    12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)


    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    Nor are all outward Christians. Only the true elect among them. And they are written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.
    Rev. 3:5. ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.’ (NASB, 1995)

    Christians who fail to continue to believe in and obey Jesus, that is, fail to overcome, will have their names erased from the book of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    Of whom Jesus promised:

    That of all which He has given Me I should lose NOTHING (John 6.39)
    Jesus made no such promise! The Bible says at John 6:39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. It is not God’s will for anyone to sin, but “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)

    They shall NEVER perish and none shall pluck them from My hand (John 10.28). [/QUOTE]

    Jesus is here quoting from Isa. 43. The Israelites that are spoken of were not plucked out of the hand of God, but they turned their backs toward God and He delivered them to “utter destruction.” Therefore, Jesus is here teaching that there is safety for those who remain faithfully and obediently in His hand, but warning of “utter destruction” to those believers who turn their backs toward Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    It is not a doxology nor a type of eulogy. It is a description of the spiritual blessings in Christ.
    This statement is absolutely and incontrovertibly false! All Greek sentences must include at least one insubordinate clause. Eph. 1:3-14 includes only one insubordinate clause, and therefore it is only one sentence. The insubordinate clause is, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” and the rest of the sentence is an elaboration of that clause—and that clause is absolutely and incontrovertibly a doxology!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagart View Post
    1 Corinthians 10:1-12

    1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
    2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
    4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
    5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
    6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
    7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
    8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
    9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
    10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
    11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
    12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)
    Soooo? Not all Israel were Israel (Roman 9.6). And Paul was speaking metaphorically, not literally. They were not actually all in Christ.




    Rev. 3:5. ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.’ (NASB, 1995)

    Christians who fail to continue to believe in and obey Jesus, that is, fail to overcome, will have their names erased from the book of life
    .

    I don't see anywhere where it says their name will be blotted out of the book of life, It merely says that their names will NOT. It is a negative before a positive, stressing the positive.

    Jesus made no such promise! The Bible says at John 6:39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
    A statement of certainty and assurance by JESUS. Do you think it was meaningless and that Jesus didn't mean what He said?

    It is not God’s will for anyone to sin, but “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)
    If it was not God's will, nobody would sin. He created man that he might sin (knowing that he would sin), and that He might then redeem His chosen. Otherwise why was Christ offered before the foundation of the world?.

    They shall NEVER perish and none shall pluck them from My hand (John 10.28).
    It is quite clear what Jesus meant.

    Jesus is here quoting from Isa. 43
    Give the EXACT quotation

    .
    The Israelites that are spoken of were not plucked out of the hand of God, but they turned their backs toward God and He delivered them to “utter destruction.”
    Because they were not in His hand for salvation.


    Therefore, Jesus is here teaching that there is safety for those who remain faithfully and obediently in His hand, but warning of “utter destruction” to those believers who turn their backs toward Him.
    LOL you turn what Jesus says upside down. If Jesus was saying this He cannot be trusted on anything. According to you He does not say what He means.

    This statement is absolutely and incontrovertibly false! All Greek sentences must include at least one insubordinate clause.
    Why must that clause control the whole section? It is not required by Greek

    Eph. 1:3-14 includes only one insubordinate clause, and therefore it is only one sentence. The insubordinate clause is, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” and the rest of the sentence is an elaboration of that clause—and that clause is absolutely and incontrovertibly a doxology!
    No it is an expansion on that clause, and an explanation. And the clause, while offering praise to God, is not a doxology, unless you simply mean by doxology praising God. It is rather a statement of praise preparing for the following clause, which is then expanded on. Paul was so moved by what he was about to say that he first praised God for it. But it is total madness to ignore the fact that the section contained deep theological truth which taught the readers a great deal about God and themselves ad to suggest that it is a doxology in any normal sense of the word..
    Last edited by valiant; 1 Week Ago at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Beloved, God has called us to go the second mile. The first mile is where everybody is. The second mile is going to require a press and stamina (Philippians 3:14-15 NKJV), (Isaiah 40:31 NLT).

    But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:14 NIV
    For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sagart
    Quote Originally Posted by valiant
    It is not a doxology nor a type of eulogy. It is a description of the spiritual blessings in Christ.
    This statement is absolutely and incontrovertibly false! All Greek sentences must include at least one insubordinate clause. Eph. 1:3-14 includes only one insubordinate clause, and therefore it is only one sentence. The insubordinate clause is, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” and the rest of the sentence is an elaboration of that clause—and that clause is absolutely and incontrovertibly a doxology!
    Your insistence that the "clause is absolutely and incontrovertibly a doxology!" does not negate the truths contained in the verses. The believer is ---

    Vs 3 – blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ;

    Vs 4 – chosen in the Lord Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world;

    Vs 5 – adopted as children according to God's good pleasure (again by our Lord Jesus Christ);

    Vs 6 – made accepted in the beloved (Jesus Christ) to the praise of the glory of God;

    Vs 7 – redeemed (made free through the payment of a ransom) through the blood of Christ, and sins forgiven according to the riches (riches, not stinginess) of God's grace;

    Vs 8 – all these blessings have abounded toward us according to God's wisdom and prudence;

    Vs 9 – the mystery of God's will has been made known to us according to God's good pleasure which He purposed in Himself;

    Vs 10 – in fullness of time, God will gather together in one all things in Christ;

    Vs 11 – we have obtained an inheritance in Christ and God has worked all this out according to His own purpose as He has willed;

    Vs 12 – those who first trusted in Christ were considered the praise of His glory;

    Vs 13 – we have trusted in the same Christ. After we hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, we also trust in Christ, and we are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise;

    Vs 14 – the holy Spirit of promise is the earnest (Greek arrabōn – a down payment guaranteeing that the full amount will subsequently be paid). The holy Spirit of promise we received is only a portion of what we will have and be at the time of the redemption of the purchased possession. Who is the purchased possession? The born again believer!


    To suppress the magnificent spiritual truths contained in those verses is nothing but folly! No wonder the body of believers finds itself in a weakened state in our day and time ... smh.
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    Is eternal life eternal?
    . Some might argue this point by saying: Jesus said John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Therefore, if, having received eternal life, we could lose it and perish, it would not therefore be eternal. How is this possible? "Notice that there are three promises here pertaining to the security of salvation for God's people. First, Christ gives them 'eternal' life”, this being born again through the baptism of repentance, the only door to salvation. Second, they shall 'never' perish, and third, neither shall any pluck them out of HIS hand. This is one of the strongest arguments in support of OSAS. Let’s examine what Christ is stating in verse 28. Who are "them" and "they"? In verse 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow (obey) me:(remember Christ is our example to follow, not our substitute for sin) This is the only type of person, the one that meets these conditions, that will never perish according to verse 28. These are those who keep HIS commandments and follow Him wheresoever HE goeth. Following Christ is enduring to the end, and the same shall be saved. “If ye continue in my word”


    If examined closely verse 28 never suggests one cannot fall away from the faith. In other words, as long as the believer remains faithful and continues to follow Christ, He will, indeed assure us that we will "never perish," (the covenant is conditional) like all covenants were in the OT. For we will remain sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Yes there is blessed assurance, meaning present tense current salvation and assurance to the followers of Jesus Christ. God is never going to reject or break HIS covenant with people who are repentant and walking in covenant with Him, as shown in His Word. However, there is no assurance of salvation for anyone who stops following Jesus and His commandments while straying off the narrow way. Keep in remembrance Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. False preachers, who by stealth have crept in unawares, (Satan’s angels of dark-light), having the power of the red dragon, will seek at all points to take your crown of salvation away)
    They are kept as long as they don’t turn away from the faith and follow the devil. 1 Timothy 5-15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. When Jesus said "never perish," but they are not there, (in covenant), thus Jesus did not include them in His promise.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first

    John 16:1
    Jesus said, All this I have told you so that you will not FALL AWAY

    1 Corinthians 10:12
    if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t FALL!

    Romans 11:22
    Behold,Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if ye continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off


    How can people be blind to these plain and simple warnings in the text?

    I John 5- 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Once again, the conditions are, present tense, as long as we have Christ we also have eternal life and salvation assurance. If after we begin with him we turn away (as some have). Gods will never prevails over man’s choices, neither does that of the Satan, man was created as a free moral being, and can choose to abandon ship (shipwreck his salvation), at that point he is without eternal life.
    1 John 5-13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God This speaks to us that the only ones who can know they have (present tense) eternal life are those who are believing on Jesus. The only assurance of salvation taught in the Bible is for the present tense obedient follower of Jesus. The future automatically saved doctrine, OSAS, is as false as the “future sins are already forgiven doctrine”. They do harmonize well together as false doctrine masquerading as truth. However knowing this first; God sees the future as reality, and freewill possibilities are not certainties, and that is reality.

    1 Timothy 4-1
    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; What do the seducing spirits say? some ole, same ole, for 6000 years, that being you can sin and surely not die. Nothing new under the sun. Paul reveals to us right here that this is what the Holy Spirit expressly spoke. The falling away is falling from the faith. If we fall away from the faith, we are no longer saved. Why is that? Without faith nobody can please God. Without faith, nobody can be righteous. Without faith, nobody will see the Lord and inherit the riches of the kingdom to come. In this lifetime we must walk by faith, in the new earth life to come we shall walk by sight.

    1 Timothy 1- 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Nobody is saved without a continuing working faith. These were turned over to the powers of darkness that maybe through repentance their souls might be saved.

    Peter told Simon the sorcerer to repent because his heart was not right with God, that God might forgive him. That expresses the ever presence of Gods Spirit working with man that God might turn from what He thought to do. Man’s conscience is the presence of God within him.

    Revelation 2- 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou has left thy first love {fell away}. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick
    {stricken from the book of life} out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. In this message to the church at Ephesus; Jesus speaks of the Nicolaitanes {the organized religion of the unholy priesthood, she operates by traditions of men and sacramental works, and the Clergy laity lie from hell}. He warned them that they had better repent and come back to Him.


    Luke 8- 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Remember you can fall from or depart form something you were not once in. That simple God given reasoning skills.


    Hebrews 6- 4 For it is impossible (virtually impossible, because we know all things are possible with God. King David is an unusual and rare example of this in the text) for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. This is the final end means of the unpardonable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost that John said he dared not pray for. It is when the conscience is completely seared by the hot iron of lust, when temptation has completely prevailed over the way of escape, and the total rejection of the whole council of God to the point that they can no longer come to the light. This was the state of Judas when Satan entered in him. It is very similar to those who trample underfoot the blood of Christ, and despise the law of God, found in Hebrews 10-26-31. We Christians, like the apostle John, in 3 John, desire that no one be found in this condition of not being unable to repent. Also described in Revelation 11, men shall seek death {repentance} and not find it. It’s a scary thought, because Judas was saved, and he was seeking repentance, but could not find it, same thing with Esau, Hebrews 12-17 for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    I Timothy 3-
    6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    Galatians 5- 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
    {religious works of the Nicolatians} ye are fallen from grace.{have departed from the power of God in which we are saved} Eph. 2 ye are saved by grace {the power of God} through faith. (God’s grace working together with man’s faith).. Grace> (the power of God) can no longer abound when we depart form the faith, leaving no conduit for the energizing current to flow. Loose the faith and the power of God unto salvation is gone. It can only be recovered through a godly repentance with great zeal, not through a superstitious belief like OSAS.

    1 Timothy 6- 10
    For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

    Willie





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    Romans 2

    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
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