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Thread: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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    Default Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    May the Spirit of God open your eyes to the below, so that if you are in error, you may repent and get onboard with the will of God and preach truth on this matter. Its not about pridefully defending your position. It's about the truth.

    Colossians 1v21-23


    21
    And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -These were believers above
    -They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
    -this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

    Other evidences:

    Luke 22 v31-32

    31 And the Lord said,[c] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

    1 Timothy 2 v18-20

    18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


    2 Timothy 2 v16-19
    16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -its possible to stray concerning the truth
    -its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
    -faith can be overthrown.
    -these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
    -sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

    Jude
    3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
    -by not contending for this, it can be lost.

    2 Timothy 4v7-8

    7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

    8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
    -why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.

    1 John 5v4
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
    -What is the world? (definition:1 John 2v16 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).

    Revelation 2v10b
    10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
    -Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
    -the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.


    The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
    Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
    Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
    Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
    Revelation 2v26 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
    Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
    Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
    Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne


    Now to those who lose the faith. Who once had the faith yet turned their backs on Christ, we have the subject matter of the 'other' thread. Which is clearly visible for all to see below:

    Hebrews 6v4-6

    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Let there no no illusions that these were believers, and were once in the faith.
    -once they "fall away" (and we can see that this is a very real risk warned about by the NT writers, as well as Jesus) to be renewed again unto repentance.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    The osas people might have some 2 cents to put in
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Yes, it is possible.

    OSAS does not contradict that, IMHO. None of the posted verses says that who is saved can loose his salvation.
    Last edited by trofimus; May 10th, 2017 at 01:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Yeah it just means you were never saved to begin with.
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    God in His infinite wisdom did leave so great a matter in your control. God vested this matter in His Son.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Yeah it just means you were never saved to begin with.
    LOL Dream On!
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    All of these scriptures have been addressed many times in the past and "in context" and in the reality of the finished work of Christ.

    I will address the first one as it is a common one used by those that believe Christ forsakes us and we lose salvation as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord. Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. John 14:16.

    The question to ask is : Is Jesus a liar? I say - NO. I'm a believer in what Christ has done.

    Our hope is certain in Christ because being in the faith is determined as fulfilled.

    There are a lot of times in the original Greek the "if" is actually a statement of it is determined as fulfilled.....

    It is called "a condition of the first class"..... Colossians 1:23 is a prime example:

    Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
    23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


    If so be that ye continue in the faith (ei ge epimenete tēi pistei).


    Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),

    Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar


    Sort of like this....you are going to the bank..( and you have gone to the bank ) and I say to you.... "If" you are going to the bank ( determined as already fulfilled )...give me $100 bucks you owe me

    I'll take a check too...
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    No,

    He who BEGUN a good work in you WILL COMPLETE or PERFECT it TILL THE DAY OF CHRIST.

    By 1 sacrifice he HAS PERFECTED FOREVER....

    If we can fall. God failed. Period, end of story.

    These people trying to rely on self to save self. and not trust that God saved them completely when he promised he would, are not from God.. They reject the power of God, and instead trust in the power of self.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    I like to use this site from time to time as it has answered a lot of questions that can come up concerning the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I especially like that at the bottom of the article people have asked questions which I find very useful because we usually have the same questions.

    Here is an article about ship-wrecked faith if people are interested in this topic.

    Shipwrecked Faith

    Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)


    What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences?

    Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”

    As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.

    What causes faith to become shipwrecked?

    Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:

    Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)

    This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.

    Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)

    Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.

    What is shipwrecked faith?

    Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).

    If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.

    And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14).

    It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).

    The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.

    If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).

    What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.

    What Paul never said

    “If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought – as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.

    What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme.

    I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.

    I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.

    In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.


    Hymenaeus and Alexander

    Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)

    What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).

    Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.

    – How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.

    – What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.

    – What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.

    – What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.

    Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.

    The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).

    In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).

    Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!)

    It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.) This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.

    Fight the good fight

    I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.

    Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.

    If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable. That way lies disaster and shipwreck.

    The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!

    If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!


    And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”

    Here is the link to the article if people want to view the questions at the bottom.

    https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/...wrecked-faith/
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    May the Spirit of God open your eyes to the below, so that if you are in error, you may repent and get onboard with the will of God and preach truth on this matter. Its not about pridefully defending your position. It's about the truth.

    Colossians 1v21-23


    21
    And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -These were believers above
    -They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
    -this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.

    Other evidences:

    Luke 22 v31-32

    31 And the Lord said,[c] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

    1 Timothy 2 v18-20

    18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


    2 Timothy 2 v16-19
    16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -its possible to stray concerning the truth
    -its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
    -faith can be overthrown.
    -these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
    -sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.

    Jude
    3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for.
    -by not contending for this, it can be lost.

    2 Timothy 4v7-8

    7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

    8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Paul, writer of most of the New Testament, fought the good fight. Finished the course. And KEPT the faith.
    -why would it be necessary for him to write about "kept the faith" if it wasn't possible to have lost faith.

    1 John 5v4
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Our faith is what overcomes the world. We are supposed to OVERCOME THE WORLD.
    -What is the world? (definition:1 John 2v16 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world).

    Revelation 2v10b
    10(b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Faith is not a once off, momentary decision, applicable for all time.
    -Faith, once received, once believed, is to be maintained.
    -the corollary is this - if you are NOT faithful until death, or lose your faith, you shall not receive the crown of life.


    The word is very clear - its to him who overcomes:
    Revelation 2v7b To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life
    Revelation 2v11b He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
    Revelation 2v17b To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.
    Revelation 2v26 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
    Revelation 3v5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life
    Revelation 3v12He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
    Revelation 3v21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne


    Now to those who lose the faith. Who once had the faith yet turned their backs on Christ, we have the subject matter of the 'other' thread. Which is clearly visible for all to see below:

    Hebrews 6v4-6

    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -Let there no no illusions that these were believers, and were once in the faith.
    -once they "fall away" (and we can see that this is a very real risk warned about by the NT writers, as well as Jesus) to be renewed again unto repentance.
    *** that's why we should not take our salvation lightly or tell people they can't lose their salvation*** it' s not that we are in and out with God back and forth, but to tell people it' s impossible is dangerous*** also we " can know" we have passed from death unto life ( 1 John 3:14)...
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by 88 View Post
    *** that's why we should not take our salvation lightly or tell people they can't lose their salvation*** it' s not that we are in and out with God back and forth, but to tell people it' s impossible is dangerous*** also we " can know" we have passed from death unto life ( 1 John 3:14)...
    No, Telling people it is possible is dangerous.

    It takes the focus off God, and puts the focus of salvation on self. It makes you responsible for doing whatever has to be done to keep from losing your salvation.

    This has a few dangerous problems...

    1. A person will realize he can not live up to Gods standard (no one can) and he will give up, why bother? Then leave the church and return to his sin, or his religion.

    2. A person will have to water down Gods standard, to get to the point they are walking above Gods standard. so they will not be judged (be deceived of their own sin and sinfulness)

    3. The person will try to hide his sin, and be forced to try to cover it up, And not confess it to people so he can find healing, because he is afraid he will be judged.

    4. In the long run, They end up being judgemental holier than though people. who judge others to make themselves feel better, Unable to hide their sin anymore, and walk away, Or self righteous people who have gained a following, and thinks he is doing Gods will.

    Only in full grace and unconditional salvation can you see true sinners come together of all ages and walks, and become united and a family, because it is not about performance, it is about God, and the focus of growing together in Christ and fulfilling the great commission.





    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    I believe it is dependant on “whose faith”. That of God by the same spirt of faith acording as it is written or of men after the imaginations of thier own hearts?

    The faith of Christ which comes from hearing God, works towards us? Or our as a dead works (baptism with h20 or the laying on of hands) to represent God who is not seen approval, offered towards him?

    Ceremonial works that are used as shadows provide no substance.. baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,(not from God) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:1

    Those who do crucify the Lord of glory over and over to public shame as if one demonstration was not enough have the faith of (belonging to) Christ which comes from hearing God in respect to their own selves, as If God was served by human hands as dead works.

    Better things accompany salvation called the redemption of our soul.
    I would suggest that we cannot have faith in Christ unless we have the faith of Christ not of us lest any man boast in self pride. It is not performed by any work we could do.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    The osas people might have some 2 cents to put in
    That would be the Lord Jesus Himself.

    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    That would be the Lord Jesus Himself.

    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Or john 6, He who believes in me will...


    Never hunger or thirst
    Live forever
    never die (spiritually)
    Has eternal life
    Will be risen by him on the last day.
    mailmandan and Rosemaryx like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    CeileDe
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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Well I am living proof that someone can fall away from the faith. Do I believe I was saved before I fell away, yes I do. Do I believe I lost my salvation? I have no clue but I can tell you I didn't just turn away from the faith but I attacked Christians, not physically, whenever I saw one talking about their faith.

    Do I think it is dangerous to say someone can lose their faith or OSAS? I wouldn't go that far, it is basically a choice on how scripture is interpreted and each and everyone of us is going to have some sort of disagreement. Before I fell away my focus wasn't on Christ but on my own needs. This then lead into a downward spiral into a lot of drinking and eventually changing my religion. It took me a little over 10 years to realize God was calling me back and in a sense He never left me. Did I change all at once? Nope I had my ups and downs and God was very patient with me.

    Now after many years later I am in a way better relationship with God. It isn't perfect and I'm still a knuckle head, but I know God is there for me and He never gave up on me even though I gave up on Him. God bless

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by CeileDe View Post
    Well I am living proof that someone can fall away from the faith. Do I believe I was saved before I fell away, yes I do. Do I believe I lost my salvation? I have no clue but I can tell you I didn't just turn away from the faith but I attacked Christians, not physically, whenever I saw one talking about their faith.

    Do I think it is dangerous to say someone can lose their faith or OSAS? I wouldn't go that far, it is basically a choice on how scripture is interpreted and each and everyone of us is going to have some sort of disagreement. Before I fell away my focus wasn't on Christ but on my own needs. This then lead into a downward spiral into a lot of drinking and eventually changing my religion. It took me a little over 10 years to realize God was calling me back and in a sense He never left me. Did I change all at once? Nope I had my ups and downs and God was very patient with me.

    Now after many years later I am in a way better relationship with God. It isn't perfect and I'm still a knuckle head, but I know God is there for me and He never gave up on me even though I gave up on Him. God bless
    The prodigal son was always the son, He just lost access to his fathers blessings, And became broke, and this brokenness caused him to return.

    I know the feeling, I too was a prodigal..
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    May the Spirit of God open your eyes to the below, so that if you are in error, you may repent and get onboard with the will of God and preach truth on this matter. Its not about pridefully defending your position. It's about the truth.


    Amen to the thought


    Colossians 1v21-23

    21
    And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled <become believers> 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
    yet now He has reconciled ---if indeed you continue in the faith,

    We are only reconciled if that is proved by our continuing in the faith. That is true. We have NEVER been reconciled otherwise,

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -These were believers above
    Only if they have proved it by continuing in the faith.

    -They were to be presented holy, blameless and above reproach (no scope for unrepentant sin in a believers life)
    -this is possible (IF THEY CONTINUED IN THE FAITH) - grounded, steadfast, not moved.
    what is said in brackets is not the word of God, and is untrue. We constantly each day carry unrepented sin in our lives until God shows us it. Indeed we all have sins in our lives we are not yet aware of and therefore have not repented of. If this is the case woe betide us all.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post

    Other evidences:

    Luke 22 v31-32

    31 And the Lord said,[c] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”


    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -If it were not possible for faith to fail, as the strong delusionalists claim, then it would not be necessary for Jesus to have had to pray to the Father this prayer above.

    It is very possible for faith to fail. But the difference between Peter and Judas is that Peter, as we do, had Christ praying for him. His faith failed, but he did not finally fail BECAUSE OF CHRIST'S INTERCESSION. The failure was temporary. The restoration certain. Peter was not lost and then saved again. He was already saved in Christ.

    1 Timothy 2 v18-20

    18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
    They suffered shipwreck 'concerning the faith'. They had gone astray in their understanding. It does not mean that they were now lost. Only that they needed God's chastening hand. 'Delivered to Satan' was for that very purpose 'that the spirit may be saved in the day of the 'Lord Jesus' (1 Cor 5.5).

    2 Timothy 2 v16-19
    16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -its possible to stray concerning the truth
    To stray concerning the truth, NOT to stray from the truth. They were false teachers.,

    -its possible to once have known the truth but to have strayed therefrom
    It depends on what you mean by knowing the truth. They knew OF the truth. But they had strayed from it.

    -faith can be overthrown.
    yes for a while. But the shepherd would seek them UNTIL He found them (Lke19.10)


    -these people are no longer saved. Because you can only receive salvation through faith.
    But if they had received salvation they could not lose it. It is YOU who say they were no longer saved, not God.

    -sin is still a factor " Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity". Contrary to what the strong delusionalists say.
    well I do not know who the strong delusionists are, but we are ALL agreed on this.

    Jude
    3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -contending for the faith - its a prize. It is to be protected, defended, fought for. -by not contending for this, it can be lost.
    where does it say it will be lost? The verse merely tells us to contend for the faith, that is argue for it and defend it.
    limey410 likes this.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    It is very possible for faith to fail. But the difference between Peter and Judas is that Peter, as we do, had Christ praying for him. His faith failed, but he did not finally fail BECAUSE OF CHRIST'S INTERCESSION. The failure was temporary. The restoration certain. Peter was not lost and then saved again. He was already saved in Christ.



    They suffered shipwreck 'concerning the faith'. They had gone astray in their understanding. It does not mean that they were now lost. Only that they needed God's chastening hand. 'Delivered to Satan' was for that very purpose 'that the spirit may be saved in the day of the 'Lord Jesus' (1 Cor 5.5).



    To stray concerning the truth, NOT to stray from the truth. They were false teachers.,



    It depends on what you mean by knowing the truth. They knew OF the truth. But they had strayed from it.



    yes for a while. But the shepherd would seek them UNTIL He found them (Lke19.10)




    But if they had received salvation they could not lose it. It is YOU who say they were no longer saved, not God.



    well I do not know who the strong delusionists are, but we are ALL agreed on this.



    where does it say it will be lost? The verse merely tells us to contend for the faith, that is argue for it and defend it.

    Hebrews 3

    12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

    “Today, if you will hear His voice,
    Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”[c]



    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -he is addressing the brethren. Christians.
    -departing from the living God (means that they were once with Him)
    -departing is as a result of unbelief
    -sin is the door which leads to unbelief (deceitfulness of sin)
    -we are ONLY partakers with Christ is we hold the BEGINNING of our confidence steadfast to the end. <this should be straightforward to understand. Unless you don't want to see it that way.>

    The pattern here in Hebrews 3 follows exactly the pattern in the OP posting.

    Now lets continue with Hebrews 3 to understand more depth, and run an analogy with the church:

    Hebrews 3
    16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


    Now what is plain to see is this:
    -just as he delivered a people out of physical Egypt (the nation of Israel), so too he delivers a people of of spiritual Egypt (His church)
    - what led to their destruction? Sin, Disobedience
    - to whom did God swear would not enter His rest (eternal life) - those who did not obey.
    - whom are they who do not obey? Those with unbelief. For unbelief leads to disobedience.
    - so the pattern we have here is that God delivers a people (Israel / Church), yet later destroys those who no longer believe (Israel/ and the Apostates within the church).
    - just remember who this is written to. Its written to the brethren (verse 12) as a warning.
    - God is consistent throughout the bible.

    Lets continue into Hebrews 4

    Hebrews 4
    4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[a] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

    “So I swore in My wrath,
    ‘They shall not enter My rest,’”[b]



    Now what is plain to see is this:
    - there is a promise to enter His rest (eternal life)
    - we as brethren should fear (its says so!)
    - to come short of it (to either not attain it, or to lose your faith <see Hebrews 3v12 - "departing">.
    - To once again fall into unbelief - see Hebrews 3 leading up to this point, and in particular Hebrew 3v14 - the beginning of our confidence has to be held steadfast until the end)
    - for only those who have faith (to the end) will enter that rest. Only then is your salvation made complete.

    Now lets confirm this again in verse 11:

    11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

    Now what is plain to see is this:
    - diligence. heeding the warnings
    - fall (and this means not entering the rest - means loss of salvation)
    - why? disobedience.
    - The writer of Hebrews is using the term "same example" to show the church the pattern of Israel. And by implication the impact on the church will suffer the same fate should they walk in the same patterns as Israel of old.
    - the pattern repeats itself. The bible confirms scripture with scripture. Amen.
    Last edited by Chris1975; May 10th, 2017 at 07:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

    Quote Originally Posted by CeileDe
    It took me a little over 10 years to realize God was calling me back and in a sense He never left me. Did I change all at once? Nope I had my ups and downs and God was very patient with me.

    Now after many years later I am in a way better relationship with God. It isn't perfect and I'm still a knuckle head, but I know God is there for me and He never gave up on me even though I gave up on Him. God bless
    You're right when you say God never left you. Even though we turn our eyes from Him, He never lets us fall away from His Hands. He is faithful to complete that good work He promises to perform.


    God called us when we were dead in trespasses and sins (Rom 5:8, Eph 2:1, Col 2:13).

    God guides us on the path (Psa 16:11, Psa 119:105, Pro 4:18).

    God chastens us (Psa 94:12, Pro 3:11-12, Heb 12:6) if/when we stray from the path.

    PennEd, Grace777x70 and CeileDe like this.

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