Teach Against God's Commandments and Still Be Saved

[BenFTW]

Now, at first glance that title may seem provocative but there is a verse that basically says the same thing. That verse is Matthew 5:19.

[h=1]Matthew 5:19 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts. Someone teach against God's holy and righteous law, and they still make it into the kingdom of heaven? Their bubble must be bursting.

With this in mind, how many people do you suppose are indeed your brethren in Christ whom you may have deemed unsaved? Is not His grace sufficient, Christ's sacrifice established? Is not Christ our High Priest able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf?

Lets not be quick to throw sheep out of the fold because we disagree on matters, but let us hold unity that exalts Christ. Some might call this compromise, but wherein then is your love? Did not Christ invite those in who are in the wrong? All manner of sinner, liars included. Therefore, people may not hold all the truth, and may yet hold onto one truth. That is, Christ and Him crucified. It is in this truth that unity may be held.

Children of God, unite. [/FONT]

 

[BenFTW]

This, obviously, is not an endorsement to teach against God's holiness and righteous standards. Only an observation that one can do so, and yet still be in the kingdom of Heaven. How gracious is God? How merciful? Is not He worthy of all praise? His love, everlasting and His heart faithful.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus said that because the purpose of the Law was to bring us to Himself. it was to inflame sin and to cause us to sin more so that we can see that we need a Savior.

To teach that some of the law is ok not to do is to water it down and make it "doable" and thus we don't need to live by grace through faith in Christ - we can live by our own works of righteousness.

 

[BenFTW]

Jesus said that because the purpose of the Law was to bring us to Himself. it was to inflame sin and to cause us to sin more so that we can see that we need a Savior.

To teach that some of the law is ok not to do is to water it down and make it "doable" and thus we don't need to live by grace through faith in Christ - we can live by our own works of righteousness.

I might word is slightly different in that the flesh took advantage of the commandment as opposed to the commandment inciting the flesh.

Romans 7:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Or in the ESV

Romans 7:8 English Standard Version (ESV)

8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

Either way you are correct that while the law is holy, righteous, and good it has no power to make us so. In fact, that wasn't its purpose. It is, as you said, to bring us to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Here is a verse that defines it, as the apostle Paul even answers the point/question brought up.

Romans 7:13
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

 

[Grace777x70]

I might word is slightly different in that the flesh took advantage of the commandment as opposed to the commandment inciting the flesh.

Romans 7:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Or in the ESV

Romans 7:8 English Standard Version (ESV)

8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

Either way you are correct that while the law is holy, righteous, and good it has no power to make us so. In fact, that wasn't its purpose. It is, as you said, to bring us to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Here is a verse that defines it, as the apostle Paul even answers the point/question brought up.

Romans 7:13
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

I agree...the law itself is holy - it's just not we are to live by which is why Jesus said not to teach against the law to water it down to make it "do-able". Because then the Law would not be able to do it's job on people like it was meant to.

It had a purpose and one of the purposes was so that sin would increase. Sounds counter intuitive to our religious minds.

Romans 5:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

 

[beta]

It certainly looks as if they too will get into the Kgd of heaven....that is God's choice and God's doing !
But scripture also says 'in my fathers house are many mansions (job-opportunities) for Jesus is preparing a place for all (to occupy for all eternity)....some will be 'vessels to honour and some to 'dishonour (a lower, inferior and less favoured position).
So what Mat 5v19 is saying that those who preach against certain commandments of God will be called 'the least in the Kgd of heaven ! and those who do them and teach them will be called great !
It's a case of 'as you make your bed so you will lie on it !!!

 

[BenFTW]

I agree...the law itself is holy - it's just not we are to live by which is why Jesus said not to teach against the law to water it down to make it "do-able". Because then the Law would not be able to do it's job on people like it was meant to.

It had a purpose and one of the purposes was so that sin would increase. Sounds counter intuitive to our religious minds.

Romans 5:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Consider how knowing right from wrong ends up increasing the known quantity of sin in your life. The apostle Paul was making a point that he wouldn't know that lust was sinful had the law not spoken against covetousness. So, in essence, the law is like a mirror and it reflects all of our flaws, it reveals to us how much we really fall short of God's glory. So the transgression increases because of a revelation of how sinful we really are. We stand without excuse before God.

It always good to consider these things and discuss them with fellow believers. It keeps us fresh. Thanks.

 

[BenFTW]

It certainly looks as if they too will get into the Kgd of heaven....that is God's choice and God's doing !
But scripture also says 'in my fathers house are many mansions (job-opportunities) for Jesus is preparing a place for all (to occupy for all eternity)....some will be 'vessels to honour and some to 'dishonour (a lower, inferior and less favoured position).
So what Mat 5v19 is saying that those who preach against certain commandments of God will be called 'the least in the Kgd of heaven ! and those who do them and teach them will be called great !
It's a case of 'as you make your bed so you will lie on it !!!

Then it would seem we would want to make the best of eternity now. What we do now has eternal consequences, or rather rewards.

 

[Grace777x70]

Consider how knowing right from wrong ends up increasing the known quantity of sin in your life. The apostle Paul was making a point that he wouldn't know that lust was sinful had the law not spoken against covetousness. So, in essence, the law is like a mirror and it reflects all of our flaws, it reveals to us how much we really fall short of God's glory. So the transgression increases because of a revelation of how sinful we really are. We stand without excuse before God.

It always good to consider these things and discuss them with fellow believers. It keeps us fresh. Thanks.

Yes and the reality is - James says if we break one law in the law of Moses - we are guilty of it all. People like to try to break up the Law of Moses to make it "do-able" by saying - we don't have to stone people now - we just live by the 10 commandments.

That is watering down the law to make it "do-able".

The 10 commandments are a part of the Law of Moses as is the stoning of our children for dis-obeying us. Paul clearly showed us that in Romans 7:7. You shall not covet is one of the 10.

Romans 7:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

 

[BenFTW]

Yes and the reality is - James says if we break one law in the law of Moses - we are guilty of it all. People like to try to break up the Law of Moses to make it "do-able" by saying - we don't have to stone people now - we just live by the 10 commandments.

That is watering down the law to make it "do-able".

The 10 commandments are a part of the Law of Moses as is the stoning of our children for dis-obeying us. Paul clearly showed us that in Romans 7:7. You shall not covet is one of the 10.

Romans 7:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

[h=1]Colossians 2:14 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

To think it was "against us" and it was "contrary to us." Such speech would seem down right blasphemous to our minds, and yet true. The truth now is that we serve in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter (or written code).

[/FONT]

 

[followjesus]

Colossians 2:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

To think it was "against us" and it was "contrary to us." Such speech would seem down right blasphemous to our minds, and yet true. The truth now is that we serve in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter (or written code).

its a reference directly to the mosaic Law which was finished by Moses Just before His death.

deuteronomy 31:And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were FINISHED, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a WITNESS AGAINST THEE.".

 

[Grace777x70]

Colossians 2:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

To think it was "against us" and it was "contrary to us." Such speech would seem down right blasphemous to our minds, and yet true. The truth now is that we serve in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter (or written code).

Yes...Christians have died to the Law of Moses, been released from the Law and not under the law in any form - including the 10 commandments.

Of course now the carnal mind will say "Does that mean we can murder someone now?"

No, it means we live by the law of love, the law of faith , the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of liberty in Christ - the law of Christ Himself in us - all of which if we walk by the spirit will not lead us to fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

 

[followjesus]

Yes...Christians have died to the Law of Moses, been released from the Law and not under the law in any form - including the 10 commandments.

Of course now the carnal mind will say "Does that mean we can murder someone now?"

No, it means we live by the law of love, the law of faith , the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of liberty in Christ - the law of Christ Himself in us - all of which if we walk by the spirit will not lead us to fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

the commandments are on tablets of stone and placed in the ark, ( which is later seen in Heaven after it disappears from the earth) the book of the Law is written By Moses and placed beside the ark as a witness against rebellious people. ( which is later seen being handed to Jesus to open its judgements upon israel.

 

[Laish]

Now, at first glance that title may seem provocative but there is a verse that basically says the same thing. That verse is Matthew 5:19.

Matthew 5:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It almost seems as if people's eyes just scan over that verse. However, it is quite a profound verse for those that come from a legalistic background of sorts. Someone teach against God's holy and righteous law, and they still make it into the kingdom of heaven? Their bubble must be bursting.

With this in mind, how many people do you suppose are indeed your brethren in Christ whom you may have deemed unsaved? Is not His grace sufficient, Christ's sacrifice established? Is not Christ our High Priest able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf?

Lets not be quick to throw sheep out of the fold because we disagree on matters, but let us hold unity that exalts Christ. Some might call this compromise, but wherein then is your love? Did not Christ invite those in who are in the wrong? All manner of sinner, liars included. Therefore, people may not hold all the truth, and may yet hold onto one truth. That is, Christ and Him crucified. It is in this truth that unity may be held.

Children of God, unite.

Hello BenFTW
You may want to look at other traditions or a KJV with strong' numbers the word break in Mathew 5:19 is a poor rendering of the original Greek . The word break in the verse you quoted has a primary meaning to loosen and secondary or figurative meaning to break. The better word would be to lessen or relax . What Jesus was referring to was the Jewish tradition of elevating parts of the law above the other . It's like this “The rabbis at that time set a distinction between “light” commandments like tithing your garden produce and “weighty” commandments like idolatry, murder, an so on . Taking the above verses and the following verse we see that Jesus demands a commitment to both the least and the greatest commandments yet condemns those who confuse the two”.
Mathew 5“17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Blessings
Bill

 

[followjesus]

the commandments are on tablets of stone and placed in the ark, ( which is later seen in Heaven after it disappears from the earth) the book of the Law is written By Moses and placed beside the ark as a witness against rebellious people. ( which is later seen being handed to Jesus to open its judgements upon israel.

Just to show paul supporting this

Romans 13:8-10 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other COMMANDMENT it is BREIFLY COMPREHENDED in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

The commandments were written By Gods finger, the commandments alone have no condemnation in them they are a moral Guide and arent against us, if we are Loving others truly, it will keep the commandments.

 

[MattforJesus]

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

We should deal with each other,and get along,because the saints are to work together,and help each other come to the truth,for there may be differing interpretations,but they are to work together to come to the truth of what the Bible states,and to avoid the wrongful interpretations that people will put out.


1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No one says Jesus is Lord,but by the Holy Spirit.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them to the Son.

We should not fight,but work with each other,for we can only believe Jesus is Lord by the Spirit,and cannot confess Christ as Savior,unless the Father draws us to do so,which means God is working in the lives of people that do that,so there is hope for them.

But how does that fly with people that believe God chose in the beginning,for they believe they are chosen,and if someone opposes them,they are not chosen,but how did they come to believe Jesus is Lord and Savior,the Christ,the Son of the living God,and God manifest in the flesh,which they can only do that if God is working in their lives.

Why is God working in their lives if they had not been chosen,for what they believe can only be done if God is working in their lives.

It throws their theology off that there are people that do not believe as them,so they are not chosen,but believe the same things concerning Jesus as they do,and some might understand better.

How do they explain that,for I believe Jesus is Lord and Savior,the Christ,the Son of the living God,and God manifest in the flesh,our King,and High Priest,and Master,and a sinless man that shed blood to take away our sins providing salvation for us,and we can receive the Spirit of God,and the man Christ Jesus is the Mediator between God,and men,and His kingdom will last forever.

But I can only believe those things if God is working in my life,but I do not go along with God chooses who will be saved,and not saved,for God is love,and not evil,for I understand the nature of God,and that the Bible says that God wants all people to come to repentance,come to the truth,and be saved,and Jesus is the Savior of the world,who gave Himself as a ransom for all people,and lights every person that is born in to this world,so all people can see the truth of Jesus,and be saved.

The whole purpose of them believing that God chose them to be saved in the beginning,and faith alone,is so that there is no responsibility on their part for Christ did it all,and they have no chance of falling.

But people that go against them,how do they believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior,for they can only do that if God is working in their life,but why would God be working in their life if they were not chosen,for how do they explain that one.

Or will they say they have been chosen,but do not realize it,but how can they not realize it if they have been chosen in the beginning,for how do they explain that.

It is like a spider's web that tangles scriptures up,when they believe that God chose who would be saved,and not saved in the beginning,without their input,which God is love,and not evil.

If they were not chosen how do they believe Jesus is Lord and Savior,which means God is working in their lives,but how can this be if they were not chosen in the beginning,and if they do not realize they were chosen,why do they not realize it if they were chosen.

That is because we have a choice,which they took away in their belief system,therefore people can believe God chose in the beginning,and people can believe we have a choice,but both still believe Jesus is Lord and Savior,and God is working in their life to cause them to understand the truth,the whole truth,and nothing but the truth,so help us God.

 

[Grandpa]

the commandments are on tablets of stone and placed in the ark, ( which is later seen in Heaven after it disappears from the earth) the book of the Law is written By Moses and placed beside the ark as a witness against rebellious people. ( which is later seen being handed to Jesus to open its judgements upon israel.

I wondered about that for awhile. When it says that Moses put his book of the law in the side of the ark.

But if you read Exodus 25 you will find that there is not a spot built on the ark that would allow something to placed "in the side". Its basically a gold box with a mercy seat built on top with cherubim covering it.

So in the side must mean Moses put it inside the ark. It wasn't just Moses book that was a testimony against the children of Israel. Everything that was inside the ark was a testimony against Israel. That was the reason for the sprinkling of the blood and the intercession.

I don't really see why anyone would want to have extra things on the outside of the ark that condemn them, in addition to what was already inside. It would make more sense for the intercessor to intercede for all of it all at once.


But I totally understand the need for legalists to try to separate the Law of Moses from the 10 Commandments. 10 commandments should be a lot easier than 613. Probably not a whole lot of hard core judaizers out there keeping 613 commandments. But 10 should be a piece of cake. Its only 10. How hard could it possibly be?

It must have been at least partially difficult if it took a High Priest, the blood of a spotless Lamb and intercession before God in order to cleanse the Nation of their sins against these 10 commandments.

 

[Meggido]

the commandments are on tablets of stone and placed in the ark, ( which is later seen in Heaven after it disappears from the earth) the book of the Law is written By Moses and placed beside the ark as a witness against rebellious people. ( which is later seen being handed to Jesus to open its judgements upon israel.

Hebrews 9.4

[SUP]4 [/SUP]having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by followjesus

the commandments are on tablets of stone and placed in the ark, ( which is later seen in Heaven after it disappears from the earth) the book of the Law is written By Moses and placed beside the ark as a witness against rebellious people. ( which is later seen being handed to Jesus to open its judgements upon israel.

Hebrews 9.4

[SUP]4 [/SUP]having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant

Yes.

Reading Exodus 25, Deuteronomy 31 and Hebrews 9 should give a clear understanding of what is going on.

 

[beta]

I wondered about that for awhile. When it says that Moses put his book of the law in the side of the ark.

But if you read Exodus 25 you will find that there is not a spot built on the ark that would allow something to placed "in the side". Its basically a gold box with a mercy seat built on top with cherubim covering it.

So in the side must mean Moses put it inside the ark. It wasn't just Moses book that was a testimony against the children of Israel. Everything that was inside the ark was a testimony against Israel. That was the reason for the sprinkling of the blood and the intercession.

I don't really see why anyone would want to have extra things on the outside of the ark that condemn them, in addition to what was already inside. It would make more sense for the intercessor to intercede for all of it all at once.


But I totally understand the need for legalists to try to separate the Law of Moses from the 10 Commandments. 10 commandments should be a lot easier than 613. Probably not a whole lot of hard core judaizers out there keeping 613 commandments. But 10 should be a piece of cake. Its only 10. How hard could it possibly be?

It must have been at least partially difficult if it took a High Priest, the blood of a spotless Lamb and intercession before God in order to cleanse the Nation of their sins against these 10 commandments.

Of course it was hard for them to keep any sort of commandment seeing they did not have God's Holy Spirit to empower them....and is just as hard/impossible for anyone today without the HS of God. Don't think because people claim it they have it. It becomes OBVIOUS whether or not people have it in 'keeping of the commandments written on hearts of flesh Heb 8v10.