Study on Faith

[Roughsoul1991]

Faith? Human reaction? God reaction? Or both? It has become evidently clear faith is confusing to some on what faith means. First of all, if the reader disagrees with free will then this study is not going to make much sense.

But most people can disagree on total depravity - Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.


Total depravity sounds very true almost as if telling the story of the fall of man until the line in red which basically is taking away free will. Then since this doctrine pushes the belief that free will cannot exist we get into the unconditional election which most can agree is false also.

Rewind............. back to faith. Maybe you can see where I am going with this. If faith is the only action commanded by God to receive grace then these 3 passages out of many are redundant if Faith is given by God. Making faith something against free will, making faith given to some( election). Making these verses pointless if God gives faith then telling someone to have faith would not make much sense.

[h=1]Acts 20:21New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Mark 11:22New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 3:26New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

The next verse is also pointless if total depravity means no free will.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 10:9-10New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Then preaching IF YOU declare and believe, giving people a choice, is a lie if we really don't have a choice.
Men can seek God in their unsaved state as God draws them

[/FONT]
[h=1]John 6:28-29New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

[/FONT]
[h=1]John 6:44-45New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Humans are not totally depraved to the point of loss of free will after all God still gave us all a moral law we choose freely to obey or ignore. Even the unsaved can be nice well moral people. The question is will they choose to obey God and follow his guidance to Jesus.



Now People who push all 5 points of tulip will misinterpret 2 scriptures about faith. Ephesians 2:8 and 1 corinthians 12:9.

Using only one verse to back their belief that saving faith is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 is the only verse in context talking about salvation in which some say grace and faith are the gifts. The only place where faith possibly could be taken that way. I'll explain in my next post these 2 scriptures in more detail.

T - No free will
U - Faith chosen to be given to some and not others
L - Christ only died for the ones God chose to give faith to
I - The chose cannot resist faith in Christ
P- The chosen cannot resist grace due to the first doctrine of no free will


1 corinthians 12:9 is pointless related to saving faith because in context the verse is related to Spiritual gifts which come after gaining the Spirit.

So this brings us to a distinction saving faith is different from the spiritual gift of faith AND if the belief of faith being a gift is preached then all this is, is another way of saying God elects who to give faith and who not to give faith, taking away from the free will of man.

Lets examine these 2 verses closer in the next post.

Great article to read that I found to be in agreement with my own personal study these last few months. GraceLife 2017 - no. 42 - Is Faith in Jesus Christ a Gift of God?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][h=4][/h][/FONT]

 

[Roughsoul1991]

[FONT=&quot]Let's look at Ephesians 2:8 in context. We see its obvious Ephesians 2 is all focused on grace and salvation. Really all of Ephesians is focused on grace. This should be one warning that Ephesians 2:8 may not be speaking on both faith and salvation as the gift. Paul had to include faith because itis part of how grace is to be given. But Paul was focusing on grace throughout the whole letter.

For by grace you are saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves; (it is) of God the gift.

The 2nd warning is given in the greek interlinear verse.
Grace and faith are both a noun, feminine, and singular.
Gift is a noun, neuter, and singular.

We have to first look and see that gift being neuter doesn't match feminine even though all three are singular. Only implying gift is matched to another word in the verse.

This is a demonstrative pronoun which is always followed by a noun This is neuter and singular which matches the following noun gift.

And so the gift is matched with this. But now the question is since this is singular and referring to one word or concept. But obviously, we can't know because grace and faith are feminine. So now we understand this must be referred to the concept of the subject at hand.

We have to study it in context to see is Paul speaking of at all in Ephesians about faith being the gift of God at any other point. In fact, he does not but is heavily focused on grace. So this is warning 3.

Warning four is seeing what the word gift is related to throughout the NT since the greek word in Ephesians 2:8 is used once. You do not have to go very far to find an example. In Ephesians 3:7

[/FONT]
[h=1]Ephesians 3:7New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 6:23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
And so with all these clues pointing to gift being referred to a singular concept and in context, it is obvious what this concept is. The gift is referred to grace.


Now lets move on to saying faith is a spiritual gift. Obviously thinking this is the same saving faith compared to spiritual gifts of faith and believing in that its only given to a select few. Which comes from the calvinist TULIP concept

[/FONT]
Total Depravity:
Humankind has been utterly ruined by the Fall to the point that there is no good and no possibility for redemption anywhere in us. We merit and can merit nothing but wrath and destruction. This means that only a Sovereign God acting in Sovereignty can deliver us from an eternal destiny in Hell. There is absolutely nothing we can do ourselves to contribute to or take away from God's activity to save us.
Unconditional Election:
As such, God's decision to save us can be and is based on no conditions we can or could ever generate. God has chosen, based on God's own criteria, whom to save and whom not to save, long before we were ever born.
Limited Atonement:
God created the means to deliver us from the merited consequences of our total depravity through the death of Jesus, his Son, on the cross. On the cross, Jesus suffered the consequences of God's just wrath and judgment on behalf of all whom God had elected for salvation, but only for these.
Irresistible Grace: Just as there is nothing humanity can to do change our depraved state, there is also nothing those who have been elect can do to resist the gracious initiative and power of God to bring them to salvation through what God had accomplished for them in the atonement.
Perseverance of the Saints: The result of all the above is that those whom God has elected to salvation and acted to save in the atonement and in the ongoing and irresistible work of the Spirit cannot but actually "persevere unto the end," that is, those who are elect cannot help but be faithful and thus experience the promised salvation.

Even though John 3:16 one verse out of many plainly says

John 3:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
[FONT=&quot]16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.[/FONT]
[h=1]
A spiritual gift is given to people once they have received the Spirit and the Spirit distributes them

1 Corinthians 12:4-7New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

9 9 to another, faith by the same Spirit,
to another, gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

This is obviously not the same saving faith since its distributed after receiving the Spirit. Obviously confusing saving faith by making the Spiritual gift of faith that is only given to some with saving faith which is asked of all to have in order to inherit eternal life.

Faith to faith is obviously saying just as Paul says we persevere in faith unto the end. Faith to faith to faith as each day goes by the righteous will live by faith. [/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 1:17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]17 For in it God’s righteousness is revealed from faith to faith,[a] just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith.



Time to examine true faith will be more than words. A true faith will be an active faith. I just proved grace is a gift from God and the action of man must have faith in order to receive grace. [/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 4Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Abraham Justified by Faith[/h][FONT=&quot]4 What then can we say that Abraham, our physical ancestor,[a] has found? 2 If Abraham was justified[b] by works, he has something to brag about—but not before God.[c] 3 For what does the Scripture say?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Abraham believed God,
and it was credited to him for righteousness.



[/FONT]
[h=1]James 2:21-23Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected. 23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,[a] and he was called God’s friend.

Another example of James being in agreement with Paul.[/FONT]
[h=1]Hebrews 11:8-10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went out to a place he was going to receive as an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he stayed as a foreigner in the land of promise, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, coheirs of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Faith is an action of man, a surrender in a belief that God's Words are true. And since you believe Gods Word to be true you act in obedience to the word and the Spirit. We are led by the Spirit not forced by the Spirit. Irresistible grace is also unbiblical just as only the chosen few are given faith is unbiblical. It's one big false doctrine. God chose all and does not make some have faith and some not. Scripture telling us to believe, have faith, or remain faithful is redundant if grace is irresistible and faith is only given to some. Faith is the choice of man on how he reacts to the message of grace. [/FONT]

 

[trofimus]

Since "free will" is your key concept, it is very needed that you define it properly and clearly.

Some concepts of "free will" I have heard are total nonsense and impossible even theoretically. Some concepts are very plausible and not contradicting the total depravity.

So it depends.

 

[Johnny_B]

Your only intention is to start a kerfuffle here, that brings out the immaturity of some here. You have lots of words but no clear question or answer. Can you start a new thread with one point at a time? There are just to many rabbit trails to deal with.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How can the will be free if one is a slave to sin?

[SUP] [/SUP]“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."[Matthew 6:24]

Here Jesus states there are two masters, God and money. Now, if you serve(worship) money, you are a slave to it, as you are a slave to who you serve...and when you worship(serve) money, you are worshiping satan, as he is the root cause of your worshiping money.

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—[Romans 6:6]

"Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"[Romans 6:16]

Again, when we were lost, we were slaves to sin, slaves to satan. And slaves ain't free.

 

[mailmandan]

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1 - NASB).

For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8 - Amplified Bible).

 

[John146]

Galatians 2
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Faith always brings a work of action. We are not justified by our own faith but the faith of Jesus Christ. His work on the cross justifies the believer. It is a gift from God. Our own individual faith is our labor for the Lord once we are justified by Christ's faith. We begin our journey by doing the good works prepared for those who love Him. Some of us will labor all of our lives as our faith gets stronger. Some will labor very little because their individual faith is weak. They remain babes in Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

The gospel is from faith to faith. Romans 1:16-17 From Christ's faith and finished work to our faith which He supplies when we hear of Him. The gospel supplies faith. Rom. 10:17

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith. Heb. 12:2


His life in us leads us to do good works because we are already saved by Christ Himself. These good works are His fruit bearing on us the branches. Without Him - we can do nothing.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Your only intention is to start a kerfuffle here, that brings out the immaturity of some here. You have lots of words but no clear question or answer. Can you start a new thread with one point at a time? There are just to many rabbit trails to deal with.

Basically, all of my information was just to prove free will exists.

That's the whole point people trying to make the only human reaction a unresistible election.

[FONT=&quot] Properly speaking we are not saved by faith, but through faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To show that faith is not a meritorious work, the Bible contrasts faith in Christ with meritorious works in both Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:4-5. Faith means exactly that we can do nothing for our salvation. We can only receive salvation as a gift. Faith is like an empty hand that simply accepts a gift.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Romans 4:4-5New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.[/FONT]

John 6:28-29New International Version (NIV)

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The gospel is from faith to faith. Romans 1:16-17 From Christ's faith and finished work to our faith which He supplies when we hear of Him. The gospel supplies faith. Rom. 10:17

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So faith comes from

hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith. Heb. 12:2


His life in us leads us to do good works because we are already saved by Christ Himself. These good works are His fruit bearing on us the branches. Without Him - we can do nothing.

I don't know if you're disagreeing or not because I know you disagree with unconditional election. To say faith is a gift this makes no human interaction but only choice of who to give faith.That belief takes free will and supports the unconditional election.

To say we are totally depraved to the point we cant choose is bogus. Now we are totally depraved, slave to sin which God does have to interact but not to the extreme of no free will.

[FONT=&quot]Those who view faith as a gift interpret man's condition, described in [/FONT]Ephesians 2:1[FONT=&quot] as "dead in trespasses and sins," as a total inability to respond to God in a positive way. But that phrase describes man's total separation from God, not his inability to respond to God. Sinful man is totally separated from God and therefore without eternal life. Man retains the image of God to some degree; it was severely marred in the fall, but not totally destroyed. [/FONT]Acts 10:2[FONT=&quot] describes Cornelius before he came to know Jesus Christ as Savior as a devout man who feared God, gave alms, and prayed to God (and God heard his prayers! [/FONT]Acts 10:31[FONT=&quot]). In Acts 17 the Athenians did not have the proper object of faith but worshiped idols. Paul encourages them to seek to know their "unknown God" which of course is Jesus Christ. Men can seek God in their unsaved state as God draws them ([/FONT]John 6:28-29[FONT=&quot], [/FONT]44-45[FONT=&quot]).[/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe that we use our will when faith comes to us with the hearing of Jesus and the "seeing" of what He has already done.

For it is God who is at work in usboth to will ( gives us the desire ) and to do ( gives us the capability by His grace ) His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

I believe that God so loved the world that He gave His Son and whosoever believes receives eternal life as this life is only found in Christ.

I believe God supplies everything we need and that is through Christ alone and we can choose to believe or not to believe ( which means to me to rely on - not a simple mental assent ).

When we first come to Christ - this happens at the heart level as Paul said in Rom 10:9-10. It is with the heart that man believes unto righteousness - not in the head.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I believe that we use our will when faith comes to us with the hearing of Jesus and the "seeing" of what He has already done.

For it is God who is at work in usboth to will ( gives us the desire ) and to do ( gives us the capability by His grace ) His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

I believe that God so loved the world that He gave His Son and whosoever believes receives eternal life as this life is only found in Christ.

I believe God supplies everything we need and that is through Christ alone and we can choose to believe or not to believe ( which means to me to rely on - not a simple mental assent ).

When we first come to Christ - this happens at the heart level as Paul said in Rom 10:9-10. It is with the heart that man believes unto righteousness - not in the head.

Yes faith is the choice. To surrender. Otherwise if faith was a gift. God elects who to give and who not instead of free choice.

Matthew 8:26New International Version (NIV)

26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

If that theory was true then God also gives some weak faith and some strong faith.

Not logical.

Like i say the bible isnt a history book, not a science book, but a relationship book.

A relationship of choice not force.

 

[plaintalk]

Jesus answered and said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who he has sent. (John 6: 29)

And by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who becomes to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and sanctification and redemption. (1 Cor. 1: 30)

And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening, and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16: 14)

And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him, and when he arrived, he helped greatly those who had believed through grace. (Acts 18: 27)

For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. (Rom. 12: 3)

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom. 10: 17)

But He gives a greater grace. There fore it says, God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble." (James 4: 6)

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matt. 16: 24) Comment: it appears our free will is exercised when we deny ourselves.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. who were born (begotten) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13)

Comment: Please consider: we are commanded to repent, but repentance is also a gift (grant) of God. Acts 11: 18; Rom 2: 4
We are commanded to love, but we love because He first loved us. 1 John 4: 19
Similarly, we are commanded to believe, but IMO, faith is received as a gift, it is not of ourselves.
God bless.

 

[garee]

Since "free will" is your key concept, it is very needed that you define it properly and clearly.

Some concepts of "free will" I have heard are total nonsense and impossible even theoretically. Some concepts are very plausible and not contradicting the total depravity.


So it depends.

Since we are created as servants and not master( God). Every person serves a master. Free will to a beliver is to do the will of another (God) by denying ones own self. It is the spiritul food Christ ate that his diciples knew not of. To eat of the forbidden fruit is to serve another, the anti Christs, the reason Christ set us free to serve Him