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Where is the dead heart, no love or consistency between the outward show and the inward
life.
Appearance is everything, but the heart gets left behind.
Greed and self indulgence.
Formulas of salvation rather than meeting people and loving them.
Jumping to conclusions and condemning people before they have a chance
to express what they mean.
Refusing to define what one believes because the fear is it will look stupid.
Staying in the dark because one is worried ones deeds are actually evil.
Making a position evil, defaming people without any foundation or justification.
life.
Appearance is everything, but the heart gets left behind.
Greed and self indulgence.
Formulas of salvation rather than meeting people and loving them.
Jumping to conclusions and condemning people before they have a chance
to express what they mean.
Refusing to define what one believes because the fear is it will look stupid.
Staying in the dark because one is worried ones deeds are actually evil.
Making a position evil, defaming people without any foundation or justification.
Some don't like the doctrine of Divine election, so they won't believe it. IOW, some don't believe that portion of Scripture or the Gospel.
So, like pharisees some attempt to void (Mark 7:13) the Scriptures (Sovereign Election) for their man made traditions (free will false gospel). That way (they think) they are in control.
Yep, that's Pharisaical!
So, like pharisees some attempt to void (Mark 7:13) the Scriptures (Sovereign Election) for their man made traditions (free will false gospel). That way (they think) they are in control.
Yep, that's Pharisaical!
A
View attachment 169812
Number 9 there..............I do think they should conform to the Christian lifestyle AFTER they give their lives to Christ. Is that ok, or am I Pharisee for that?
Number 12 there........does it matter who it is doing the rebuking? I mean, if I am being rebuked by someone for not believing what they are teaching because I believe it to be completely unBiblical, is that ok? Now, I don't usually get all "knuckle up 'n' go head to head" right away, but IF they continue with their junk.........well..........don't start nuttin, there won't be nuttin as we say.......
Number 9 there..............I do think they should conform to the Christian lifestyle AFTER they give their lives to Christ. Is that ok, or am I Pharisee for that?
Number 12 there........does it matter who it is doing the rebuking? I mean, if I am being rebuked by someone for not believing what they are teaching because I believe it to be completely unBiblical, is that ok? Now, I don't usually get all "knuckle up 'n' go head to head" right away, but IF they continue with their junk.........well..........don't start nuttin, there won't be nuttin as we say.......
(we had one on CC who preached you couldn't be Christian unless you stopped sinning.,since he was a sinner he admitted to NOT be Christian,but wanted to preach and rebuke folks anyway)
12. I don't think it matters who is doing the rebuking and it's not about agreeing with the other person but reapnding with love and gentleness and patience...or being silent.
It's hard to do. But we follow Jesus example and not the world.
Some people say Jesus was mad when he turned over the money tables at the temple. But notice he also taught them WHY and gave them God's way and reasoning.
In addition we can not always see the heart of motives of others, while Jesus knew what people thought and felt. Therefore we should give people the benefit of doubt that they may be speaking in love or they are hurt and need love. Some folks are just not able to be spoken with because they make you mad and tempt you to sin by speaking harshly to them, those you ignore, instead of insult.
We can't control what people say around us, but we can decide to respond in a Christ like manner with truth, love and gentleness, displaying heavenly wisdom instead of demonic strife.
A
Divine selection isn't based on the "quality seen in the object selected" but because God plans on putting His Holy Spirit in that person and shape them to do good works to shine a light in this dark world.
However human selection is based on the fact they see God's light as good, His ways as pure and just and choose to walk in the light instead of continuing in darkness. This is only done by divine power and intervention which is commonly referred to as grace.
Divine selection does not fit your definition of selection.
However human selection is based on the fact they see God's light as good, His ways as pure and just and choose to walk in the light instead of continuing in darkness. This is only done by divine power and intervention which is commonly referred to as grace.
Divine selection does not fit your definition of selection.
What should a believer do to a full frontal assault by another person of faith?
Reflection of the accusation or invectives seem to just make things worse.
Dealing with facts or ideas appears to be the best approach. Once emotions are
tripped, they appear to run away with the individual.
Pharisees always want to stir up a mob and make something that is minor into
the most terrible issue ever.
So Jesus, caught as a blasphemer, stone him.
caught as a rebel against Rome, imprison him.
caught as a condemner of sinners, a legalist not balancing out situation alongside
crime.
On cc some try and generate a subtle situations, and from the response, go for
page after page of discussion and condemnation about how terrible such a
response could be. It is a very useful experience to go through, to know how one
feels and then respond appropriately. A lot never enter such arenas because of
this behaviour and they know it will turn their heads, which is not good.
So is the bullying, trying to trap people, making things personal, taking individuals
out, is this part of the whole pharisee mindset, we the elite, you the lost against
whom we can do what we like. The Jesuits did it in the Spanish Inquisition.
Some puritans did it in the witch hunts, others in purging of one group or another
by isolation.
But equally in love, sinful behaviour needs to be addressed, and heresy, which includes
some identification and expulsion.
It all stems from we are right no matter what, you are the enemy, so everything you
bring must be rubbished.
Reflection of the accusation or invectives seem to just make things worse.
Dealing with facts or ideas appears to be the best approach. Once emotions are
tripped, they appear to run away with the individual.
Pharisees always want to stir up a mob and make something that is minor into
the most terrible issue ever.
So Jesus, caught as a blasphemer, stone him.
caught as a rebel against Rome, imprison him.
caught as a condemner of sinners, a legalist not balancing out situation alongside
crime.
On cc some try and generate a subtle situations, and from the response, go for
page after page of discussion and condemnation about how terrible such a
response could be. It is a very useful experience to go through, to know how one
feels and then respond appropriately. A lot never enter such arenas because of
this behaviour and they know it will turn their heads, which is not good.
So is the bullying, trying to trap people, making things personal, taking individuals
out, is this part of the whole pharisee mindset, we the elite, you the lost against
whom we can do what we like. The Jesuits did it in the Spanish Inquisition.
Some puritans did it in the witch hunts, others in purging of one group or another
by isolation.
But equally in love, sinful behaviour needs to be addressed, and heresy, which includes
some identification and expulsion.
It all stems from we are right no matter what, you are the enemy, so everything you
bring must be rubbished.
Pharisees are those that try to be righteous by what they do or don't do and thus are rejecting Christ's righteousness. He had to continually confront them on this issue.
Because of this - there are fruits that show up - such as twisting what is really being said to others to make it "appear" to be saying something else.
Pharisees reject the grace of God shown to people as seen in Jesus dealing with the lame person that He healed. I remember writing about this somewhere. I'll see if I can find it again as it shows the Pharisees attitude towards the grace of God in Christ.
Because of this - there are fruits that show up - such as twisting what is really being said to others to make it "appear" to be saying something else.
Pharisees reject the grace of God shown to people as seen in Jesus dealing with the lame person that He healed. I remember writing about this somewhere. I'll see if I can find it again as it shows the Pharisees attitude towards the grace of God in Christ.
I found it.
Here is a perfect example of an encounter with a Pharisee - where they are sounding so pious and trying to 'defend their D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness beliefs"...but in effect are grace-haters and grace-fearing too. Jesus encountered it constantly and He did not have good words to speak to them.
John 9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud
[SUP]7 [/SUP]and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed and received my sight.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]They said to him, “Where is he?” He said, “I do not know.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes.
( I'm pretty sure Jesus does this on purpose to expose the self-righteous mindset as a lot of His healings were done on their Sabbath day )
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
(typical religious/Pharisee attack ..He doesn't keep the Law....like "we" do....He is lawless )
But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”
( typical response to grace being displayed ..this man being questioned by the self-righteous with an "agenda" in mind to dis-credit the works of Jesus )
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight
[SUP]19 [/SUP]and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?”
[SUP]20 [/SUP]His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind.
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” [SUP]
22 [/SUP](His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.”
( typical religious sounding words to try to show they care about God's "glory" )[SUP]
25 [/SUP]He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.”
(typical response from a person that now "sees" the grace of Christ in them )
[SUP]26 [/SUP]They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?”
( how many times do grace believers keep saying the same things over and over again? )
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
(typical D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness/Pharisee belief response where they say that they "believe God's word but you don't" )
[SUP]29 [/SUP]We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.”
( typical D.I.Y righteousness/holiness/Pharisee belief response ..we believe "God's word".... it sounds so good and pious...)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes.
[SUP]
31 [/SUP]We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. [SUP]
32 [/SUP]Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. [SUP]
33 [/SUP]If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
[SUP]
34 [/SUP]They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.
( again typical D.I.Y holiness/Pharisee belief response attacking his character because he doesn't believe what they believe about Jesus )
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.”
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
( this is the response of us to the grace of the gospel of Christ shown to us .....seeing the great love of our Lord and worshipping Him only )
Here is a perfect example of an encounter with a Pharisee - where they are sounding so pious and trying to 'defend their D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness beliefs"...but in effect are grace-haters and grace-fearing too. Jesus encountered it constantly and He did not have good words to speak to them.
John 9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud
[SUP]7 [/SUP]and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed and received my sight.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]They said to him, “Where is he?” He said, “I do not know.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes.
( I'm pretty sure Jesus does this on purpose to expose the self-righteous mindset as a lot of His healings were done on their Sabbath day )
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
(typical religious/Pharisee attack ..He doesn't keep the Law....like "we" do....He is lawless )
But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”
( typical response to grace being displayed ..this man being questioned by the self-righteous with an "agenda" in mind to dis-credit the works of Jesus )
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight
[SUP]19 [/SUP]and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?”
[SUP]20 [/SUP]His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind.
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” [SUP]
22 [/SUP](His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.”
( typical religious sounding words to try to show they care about God's "glory" )[SUP]
25 [/SUP]He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.”
(typical response from a person that now "sees" the grace of Christ in them )
[SUP]26 [/SUP]They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?”
( how many times do grace believers keep saying the same things over and over again? )
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
(typical D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness/Pharisee belief response where they say that they "believe God's word but you don't" )
[SUP]29 [/SUP]We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.”
( typical D.I.Y righteousness/holiness/Pharisee belief response ..we believe "God's word".... it sounds so good and pious...)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes.
[SUP]
31 [/SUP]We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. [SUP]
32 [/SUP]Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. [SUP]
33 [/SUP]If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
[SUP]
34 [/SUP]They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.
( again typical D.I.Y holiness/Pharisee belief response attacking his character because he doesn't believe what they believe about Jesus )
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.”
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
( this is the response of us to the grace of the gospel of Christ shown to us .....seeing the great love of our Lord and worshipping Him only )
By this definition the world are pharisees and believers are not.
Just to show this cannot be true, the world has anachists who have no rules to
nutcase muslim radicals who have a set of rules if you break in their eyes you
die.
Now ofcourse the term pharisee was addressed to a sect of Judaism, who followed
a set of well defined rules and interpretations to the letter if they could.
So to translate the term to another group, they have to be similar or it looses its
meaning.
In a christian context and to a christian audience, pharisee means the enemies of
Christ, except Paul was a pharisee which means actually being a pharisee was not
evil, just the way you practised the approach.
What appears to be being said here, doing anything is not linked to Christ.
Now this cannot be true because Jesus asked us to do lots of things.
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching."
John 14:23-24
So loving Jesus is about doing and obeying.
Just to show this cannot be true, the world has anachists who have no rules to
nutcase muslim radicals who have a set of rules if you break in their eyes you
die.
Now ofcourse the term pharisee was addressed to a sect of Judaism, who followed
a set of well defined rules and interpretations to the letter if they could.
So to translate the term to another group, they have to be similar or it looses its
meaning.
In a christian context and to a christian audience, pharisee means the enemies of
Christ, except Paul was a pharisee which means actually being a pharisee was not
evil, just the way you practised the approach.
What appears to be being said here, doing anything is not linked to Christ.
Now this cannot be true because Jesus asked us to do lots of things.
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching."
John 14:23-24
So loving Jesus is about doing and obeying.
Post #34 and #35 have been reported as has been asked by the mods to stop strife and division.
BUT maturity and not attacking those is what is needed. here is what we get when the "hyper grace" topic is brought up:
1. your not saved
2. attacks
3. false teacher
4. infraction submitted
5. request for account to be closed
6. name calling
7. "hyper grace" brought into every post when not even the topic of origin
I have given you 7 reasons why this topic is not good for CC Thread and I have yet to find one reason for it.
Admin and the moderators will no longer allow this to continue . And appropriate action will be taken if a member or guest starts a topic on "hyper grace " or Preachers who teach it. remember those who attack each other many of them call themselves christians yet we eat and devour each other. enough is enough. I am not going to dress you personally at this time... You have an opportunity to let it go or CC Admin and Moderators will take action.
God bless,
very respectfully,
CS1
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/143507-hyper-grace-preachers-doctrine-cc.html
BUT maturity and not attacking those is what is needed. here is what we get when the "hyper grace" topic is brought up:
1. your not saved
2. attacks
3. false teacher
4. infraction submitted
5. request for account to be closed
6. name calling
7. "hyper grace" brought into every post when not even the topic of origin
I have given you 7 reasons why this topic is not good for CC Thread and I have yet to find one reason for it.
Admin and the moderators will no longer allow this to continue . And appropriate action will be taken if a member or guest starts a topic on "hyper grace " or Preachers who teach it. remember those who attack each other many of them call themselves christians yet we eat and devour each other. enough is enough. I am not going to dress you personally at this time... You have an opportunity to let it go or CC Admin and Moderators will take action.
God bless,
very respectfully,
CS1
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/143507-hyper-grace-preachers-doctrine-cc.html
I'm a grace lover, and am for preservation of the saints, or, if you want to call OSAS. The remark that these replace true grace with "their own grace" is slanderous, and a straw man.
Bro, to be honest, I see very little grace coming from you, while at the same time you claim to have the "real" grace. Why is that? I like a lot of what you have to say, but the above is a total lie. Obviously you must hold to some misunderstanding of OSAS, and perhaps they false gospel of hyper-grace has brought you to that, but don't sling us all under the same lie.
So you throw part of a verse in here that has a certain context in Romans 2? But I'll play along: Does this also describe you, or only those you're slandering in here?
S
it seems the name pharisee is a loosely understood term certain people call other people when they want to denigrate, insult, condemn, judge and basically dismiss what the other person is saying. here are some interesting things Jesus had to say about the actual pharisees He dealt with throughout His ministry
Matthew 23:1-3
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Luke 6:1-2
Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain. But some of the Pharisees said, "Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
Luke 18:9-12
And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Matthew 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
So, if believers are considered to be a 'modern day pharisee' and they are not actual pharisees as per that sect of religious teachers of Jesus day and forward to modern times, are we then dealing with a spiritual aspect of the behavior of pharisees?
I say we are
there is nothing new under the sun. rigidity, self-righteousness, perfectionism (in their own eyes), very quick to judge all who do not believe the same, believing they are 'special' and chosen by God to point fingers at everyone else, lacking the Holy Spirit while believing others have demon spirits and so on
Matthew 23:1-3
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Luke 6:1-2
Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain. But some of the Pharisees said, "Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
Luke 18:9-12
And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Matthew 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
So, if believers are considered to be a 'modern day pharisee' and they are not actual pharisees as per that sect of religious teachers of Jesus day and forward to modern times, are we then dealing with a spiritual aspect of the behavior of pharisees?
I say we are
there is nothing new under the sun. rigidity, self-righteousness, perfectionism (in their own eyes), very quick to judge all who do not believe the same, believing they are 'special' and chosen by God to point fingers at everyone else, lacking the Holy Spirit while believing others have demon spirits and so on