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Some don't like the doctrine of Divine election, so they won't believe it. IOW, some don't believe that portion of Scripture or the Gospel.
So, like pharisees some attempt to void (Mark 7:13) the Scriptures (Sovereign Election) for their man made traditions (free will false gospel). That way (they think) they are in control.
Yep, that's Pharisaical!
So, like pharisees some attempt to void (Mark 7:13) the Scriptures (Sovereign Election) for their man made traditions (free will false gospel). That way (they think) they are in control.
Yep, that's Pharisaical!
It's like their interpretation of foreknowledge adding that God's election by His foreknowledge is because He sees that they will place faith in Christ, a work of righteousness and that's not foreknowing, that fore acknowledging, which makes it God's selection not His election, because the choice was made based on a quality that they possessed, their faith. All elevating man above God, he is in control of his salvation and God is their to okay it and reward mans actions of righteous works. Which also takes grace out of the picture, because grace is God's unmerited favor, what they are talking about is God's merited favor, because of their faith that they placed in Christ. Which means that their salvation is not a gift, it's payment for their faith, which is not saving faith.
Romans 4:3-5 “For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,” Genesis 15:6 “And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. But what happened before that Genesis 12:1-2 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.”
The Lord called Him first, in that promise Genesis 12:1-2, in Genesis 15:6 where he believed to righteousness, was after the call of grace and the promise was revealed again. Here Abram responded to the call by faith and left the land of his fathers. Listen to what the Holy Spirit says through Joshua 24:2-4 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.4 And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.’”
Jacob and Esau why did He chose them as well? Romans 9:11 “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” That's God's electing foreknowledge, not anything done good or bad, before they were born, it's so His purpose of election continues, not by works but because He calls or elects.
A
okay. What does the sky is blue mean? I see this from time to time.
stating the obvious for what reason?
stating the obvious for what reason?
Thus they say you claim that the sky is green and attack you. When you said the sky is blue.
I just said it to remind him, he doesn't need to defend himself from false accusations.
S
people are missing what a pharisee actually is
at its basic conception, the pharisee spirit OPPOSES the Holy Spirit
a believer cannot be an actual pharisee. Jesus said the pharisees were of their FATHER the devil
now of what spirit is the devil? total opposition to God
the devil comes as an angel of light. nothing has changed. why would it when it works so well?
operating from pride, the devil sought to overthrow God and he continues to try through human beings, God's creation that He loves and sent His Son to make atonement for so that relationship could be restored
if you are of the devil's spirit, you continue to fault others, cause dissension, remark that you alone have the truth, you reject ANY possibility that you are wrong
understand you are dealing with a SPIRIT, in fact the spirit of anti-Christ, when Jesus is hidden behind a cloud of righteous indignation of how dare you not agree with me
that is a murderous spirit and it kills what is of God and exalts the flesh
and I know exactly the bile that will rise to meet this post. folks are trying to understand a spiritual truth from the perspective of those who actually do have a Pharisaical spirit
at its basic conception, the pharisee spirit OPPOSES the Holy Spirit
a believer cannot be an actual pharisee. Jesus said the pharisees were of their FATHER the devil
now of what spirit is the devil? total opposition to God
the devil comes as an angel of light. nothing has changed. why would it when it works so well?
operating from pride, the devil sought to overthrow God and he continues to try through human beings, God's creation that He loves and sent His Son to make atonement for so that relationship could be restored
if you are of the devil's spirit, you continue to fault others, cause dissension, remark that you alone have the truth, you reject ANY possibility that you are wrong
understand you are dealing with a SPIRIT, in fact the spirit of anti-Christ, when Jesus is hidden behind a cloud of righteous indignation of how dare you not agree with me
that is a murderous spirit and it kills what is of God and exalts the flesh
and I know exactly the bile that will rise to meet this post. folks are trying to understand a spiritual truth from the perspective of those who actually do have a Pharisaical spirit
Leaving the one whose nature God doesn't change with no choice.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is a whole room full of real Christians and one person who is not saved. The Lord Jesus asks everyone in that room if He should save the one who is not.
If all the Christians in the room made all the right choices and did all the right work they could vote "no", that person didn't do all the necessary things to be saved like we did. Kind of like the workers in the field who worked all day versus those that only worked for an hour and all received the same reward.
But if they knew that it was Christ and Christ alone that saved them there could be no dissenting "votes" among them. The only vote cast would be "Your Will be done, Lord".
I don't know if I explained this very well but its about the best I could do.
A
I suggest meditating on these verses:
Like 13
1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
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6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Like 13
1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
****
6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Hi Ariel: I agree with most of your post, however I really disagree with number 5, you make every issue black and white. Jesus made every issue black and white. The sign that we are in Christ is that we can discern black from white, evil from good, right from wrong. It is Satan who muddies the water so that black and white cannot be discerned.
A
they are modern day Pharisees not Christians.
God's born again Children recognize His will should be done always even if we don't understand or want to argue with Him. He reveals His truth, love and patience and changes not only our minds but our hearts to accept His plans are for our good and wiser than what we make up for ourselves and our lives. Do we have the faith to believe and trust in Him alone?
I wouldn't say it was a roomful of true Christians but a room full of people claiming to be disciples of Jesus, but their answer reveals if they are believers or just "disciples" like Judas Iscariot...just in it for the reward and retirement plan.
God's born again Children recognize His will should be done always even if we don't understand or want to argue with Him. He reveals His truth, love and patience and changes not only our minds but our hearts to accept His plans are for our good and wiser than what we make up for ourselves and our lives. Do we have the faith to believe and trust in Him alone?
I wouldn't say it was a roomful of true Christians but a room full of people claiming to be disciples of Jesus, but their answer reveals if they are believers or just "disciples" like Judas Iscariot...just in it for the reward and retirement plan.
A
Here is some gray for you. Can you explain this verse? Is the people James is talking to believers or the unredeemed?
James 3
9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
James 3
9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
I was ask the person that posted, because she was trying to say that people that believe in election are pharisee's. Which means she believe in the other form of elect that she righty called selection, because their definition of election is by definition selection based on the fore seen seen quality of faith. Which in turn denies the foreknowledge of the Father, because by that definition it is now God acknowledging their fore seen faith in Christ at some point in their life. Which in turn has taken God out of the equation of salvation, as the provider of salvation demoting Him to a simple observer that is supposed to rewards their works, but if you do something to receive something it is no longer a gift, it's a payment for that deed of merit, but in the case of God's salvation by grace it's debt. Which has now taken grace out of salvation, so it's no salvation at all.
Romans 4:4 "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." You can notwork for grace, because it's a gift of God, but man in his twisted mind, thinks that they can some how save themselves, by having faith. When Jesus says the natural man can not even see the kingdom of God, so why would he see a need for faith in God? He wouldn't. John 3:3 This is exactly what the pharisee's did is come up with man made works be to replace God in the gift of salvation. They did not see the justice, mercy and faith of the Law, all they seen were the works, yet most all of what they were doing was not even the Law, it was the tradition of men that they made up. Matthew 23:23-24 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Just like the added idea that foreknowledge is by fore seen faith, it's not it's acknowledge, that election is based on fore seen faith, that's selection and that unmerited favor of God or His grace, is by that fore seen faith, it's not that is merited favor, grace is not grace if you do anything to receive it even faith, as in Romans 4:4 the wage or what you think you receive from God for some fore seen faith, it is not grace at all, it's debt, not a gift, you owe God, because anything you think you can do to get God's favor, digs the hole deeper. That why I wanted the OP to explain, because she posts a lot of legalistic stuff, by her posts she's a modern day pharisee, but like all pharisee's they can't see it. They hate anything to do with grace, because they view grace escape clause to live however you want and they are right, because when you experience God's grace you want to live in His grace which is Hid holiness not my righteousness, but in His righteousness.
Romans 4:4 "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." You can notwork for grace, because it's a gift of God, but man in his twisted mind, thinks that they can some how save themselves, by having faith. When Jesus says the natural man can not even see the kingdom of God, so why would he see a need for faith in God? He wouldn't. John 3:3 This is exactly what the pharisee's did is come up with man made works be to replace God in the gift of salvation. They did not see the justice, mercy and faith of the Law, all they seen were the works, yet most all of what they were doing was not even the Law, it was the tradition of men that they made up. Matthew 23:23-24 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Just like the added idea that foreknowledge is by fore seen faith, it's not it's acknowledge, that election is based on fore seen faith, that's selection and that unmerited favor of God or His grace, is by that fore seen faith, it's not that is merited favor, grace is not grace if you do anything to receive it even faith, as in Romans 4:4 the wage or what you think you receive from God for some fore seen faith, it is not grace at all, it's debt, not a gift, you owe God, because anything you think you can do to get God's favor, digs the hole deeper. That why I wanted the OP to explain, because she posts a lot of legalistic stuff, by her posts she's a modern day pharisee, but like all pharisee's they can't see it. They hate anything to do with grace, because they view grace escape clause to live however you want and they are right, because when you experience God's grace you want to live in His grace which is Hid holiness not my righteousness, but in His righteousness.
Ariel,you missed the point. How many times did the pharisees ask those Jesus healed how and why they thought they were whole and healed.
A baby christian that is radically changed knows without having to ask how and why, because the Spirit bears witness to their spirit they are a son or daughter of God.
A baby christian that is radically changed knows without having to ask how and why, because the Spirit bears witness to their spirit they are a son or daughter of God.
A
Not everyone Jesus physically healed became a believer in Him.
Just as not everyone who are the bread and fish provided stated with Jesus.
Also the people of Israel are manna in the desert yet never entered the promise land, except for the ones born in the wilderness and Joshua and Caleb.
When I was a baby Christian, I still asked how and why but knew I didn't understand fully what God told me.
Now as a toddler i learn to walk with Him, but I still often ask why. I still have faith He will always protect and care for me and that's enough, but I like to know how and why and God sometimes explains and sometimes tells me he will explain later. Whether that later is in this life or when He calls me home to Him, it's really not something I will know until it happens.
Just as not everyone who are the bread and fish provided stated with Jesus.
Also the people of Israel are manna in the desert yet never entered the promise land, except for the ones born in the wilderness and Joshua and Caleb.
When I was a baby Christian, I still asked how and why but knew I didn't understand fully what God told me.
Now as a toddler i learn to walk with Him, but I still often ask why. I still have faith He will always protect and care for me and that's enough, but I like to know how and why and God sometimes explains and sometimes tells me he will explain later. Whether that later is in this life or when He calls me home to Him, it's really not something I will know until it happens.
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